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mad saint guy wrote:
I don't think Lade was ever in any danger of being delisted. He had dropped off a bit after returning from injury, but made steady improvement each year and stayed completely injury free from age 26 (2003) to present. He was yet to peak, had good support from their other ruckmen and had no complications after his two missed years.
Gardiner has alwasy been injury-ridden. In his 10 years in the AFL, he has only played more than 18 games in a season twice. He was just a solid player up until 2002 and 2003, when he became the dominant ruckman of the competition (even though he missed 10 games in those years). After that he has just had injury after injury. He has not played any reasonable amount of football for four years.
The fact that he's still on our list would indicate that he still has a decent chance of playing footy again, but if he does get on the field, I wouldn't expect anything more than an 8 possession, 15 hitout average as a backup ruckman. He won't have the spring required to dominate center bounces anymore, he'll be pretty much useless at ground level and he's far to slow to be a forward. But he's strong, agressive and has a good footy brain. Pretty much Michael Rix if you substitute the athleticism for talent.
We do not have a strong ruck division, but it may not be as much of a liability since Knobel left. Despite his lack of skill, he did have a prescence in the ruck and usually beat his opponent in the hitouts. We weren't strong in the ruck back then, but we didn't lose games because of it either. Rix doesn't have the height to do what Knobel did and he doesn't have the skill to make up for it around the ground. We now have two experienced rucks who might be able to be reasonable both in the ruck contests and around the ground, but they won't ever be as good as in 2002-2003.
Yep pretty much sums it up... IMO
Dream on if some on here think he is our answer .....
He would (at best be a back up ruck) much the same with King IMO...
any thought that the two will combine to be a ruck hopes are delusional IMO...
A certain boost to our ruck stocks but in no way they will play out the season..
Don't wait for the light at the end of the tunnel to appear, run down there and light the bloody thing yourself!
mad saint guy wrote:
I don't think Lade was ever in any danger of being delisted. He had dropped off a bit after returning from injury, but made steady improvement each year and stayed completely injury free from age 26 (2003) to present. He was yet to peak, had good support from their other ruckmen and had no complications after his two missed years.
Gardiner has alwasy been injury-ridden. In his 10 years in the AFL, he has only played more than 18 games in a season twice. He was just a solid player up until 2002 and 2003, when he became the dominant ruckman of the competition (even though he missed 10 games in those years). After that he has just had injury after injury. He has not played any reasonable amount of football for four years.
The fact that he's still on our list would indicate that he still has a decent chance of playing footy again, but if he does get on the field, I wouldn't expect anything more than an 8 possession, 15 hitout average as a backup ruckman. He won't have the spring required to dominate center bounces anymore, he'll be pretty much useless at ground level and he's far to slow to be a forward. But he's strong, agressive and has a good footy brain. Pretty much Michael Rix if you substitute the athleticism for talent.
We do not have a strong ruck division, but it may not be as much of a liability since Knobel left. Despite his lack of skill, he did have a prescence in the ruck and usually beat his opponent in the hitouts. We weren't strong in the ruck back then, but we didn't lose games because of it either. Rix doesn't have the height to do what Knobel did and he doesn't have the skill to make up for it around the ground. We now have two experienced rucks who might be able to be reasonable both in the ruck contests and around the ground, but they won't ever be as good as in 2002-2003.
Yep pretty much sums it up... IMO
Dream on if some on here think he is our answer .....
He would (at best be a back up ruck) much the same with King IMO...
any thought that the two will combine to be a ruck hopes are delusional IMO...
A certain boost to our ruck stocks but in no way they will play out the season..
I think youll find KING is far better than a back up ruckman. He would be in the top 5- 6 ruckmen in the AFL a point he proved only 4 months ago in the Grand Final.
As for Gardener how can anyone tell what imput he will have this season so Im prepared to trust the judgement of our coach who sees enough in him to keep him on. To me that says somthing of his value.
I would like to know if any of those who are able to predict what will happen in the coming season with such certainty and clarity are prepared to lend me their crystal ball for this Saturday's tatts numbers?
I have now seen everything. Naysayers and prophets of doom a month before we even start the pre-season comp! I guess it's never too early to get in with the predictions of a disaster.
At this exact point in time our ruck stocks are looking stronger than they have for God knows how many seasons, and yet still we can't compete with the local under 9's according to some on here.
A word to the wise - no one, not even the player himself, knows what Michael Gardiner will be capable of this season. He may play a handful of Scorps games, start running into some form and break down yet again, or he may end the season being praised as the reason the Saints won the flag and be the greatest comeback since Lazarus, or could be anywhere between those two extremes.
For now, I have one request. Could people on here stop being so condescending as to tell everyone else what to think, no one knows the future until it is the past, and telling other people what is going to happen and berating them for disagreeing is arrogant in the extreme.
The heavy metal artist formerly known as True Believer!
IF you look around the room and can't identify who the sucker is, then it's probably you!
True Believer wrote:I would like to know if any of those who are able to predict what will happen in the coming season with such certainty and clarity are prepared to lend me their crystal ball for this Saturday's tatts numbers?
I have now seen everything. Naysayers and prophets of doom a month before we even start the pre-season comp! I guess it's never too early to get in with the predictions of a disaster.
At this exact point in time our ruck stocks are looking stronger than they have for God knows how many seasons, and yet still we can't compete with the local under 9's according to some on here.
A word to the wise - no one, not even the player himself, knows what Michael Gardiner will be capable of this season. He may play a handful of Scorps games, start running into some form and break down yet again, or he may end the season being praised as the reason the Saints won the flag and be the greatest comeback since Lazarus, or could be anywhere between those two extremes.
For now, I have one request. Could people on here stop being so condescending as to tell everyone else what to think, no one knows the future until it is the past, and telling other people what is going to happen and berating them for disagreeing is arrogant in the extreme.
Well now.. how dare you be so sensible in a place like this!! You know it is the god-given right of every football expert to claim knowledge of impending doom and shout it from the rooftops and harangue anyone daring to disagree. So, keep your sensible observations to yourself before this forum starts to get a reputation for being a sensible discussion board!!
I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
While injuries have played a major role, Gardiners loss of form while at west coast was also a result of significant attitude problems. Hopefully these have been resolved and if he can get his body right, he may be a contributor.
My take on M Gardiner is that as we got both he and Birrs for pick 43 that even if he never plays that we have not lost a great deal.
Whereas on the upside if he ONLY plays as a second fiddle to King for the next two seasons as a No 2 ruck playing 10 minutes a quarter to spell him or fill in occassionaly when King is injured/suapended that we have gained greatly.
If he can ever recapture the form to be more than that then we would be WAY WAY in front.
I think the Club must consider him at least a reasonable chance of becoming fit enough to play as for example they exited out an unfit Hamill who was still some chance of playing some footballpost 2007...and arguably Watts as well. This would indicate to me thatthe Club would not wastea spot on the list in 2008 if they though M Gardiner was not at leasta reasonable chance of being able to play in 2008.
Attitude???? Well yes he needs to reform there too...and if he is now fit, or almost fit, then that aspect would be now be ripe to tested.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Tue 15 Jan 2008 8:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
"My take on M Gardiner is that as we got both he and Birrs for pick 43 that even if he never plays that we have not lost a great deal.
Whereas on the upside if he ONLY plays as a second fiddle to King for the next two seasons as a No 2 ruck playing 10 minutes a quarter to spell him or fill in occassionaly when King is injured/suapended that we have gained greatly." SaintsRrising
When a club feels close to a grand final perhaps a conservative gamble in snaring a reasonably ready made running player (Birrs) and an injury hampered but talented ruck (Gardiner) is not such an obvious big mistake.
Mind you Birrs and Gardiner could well be in the final quarter of the lifeline offered them by Saint Kilda to continue their afl career. Given that McQualter got the shove (only to be given his own lifeline in the recent draft) we can expect a few like the two mentioned above to get the shove if it doesn't work out).
Love to see the Saints looking a lot more menacing and potent out of the ruck position WITH Kossi in the square.
G O GARDS
G O KINGEY
G O K O S I
G O S A I N T S !
The boy can play and we can build a defence around him that will have respect.
how bouts use go talk about gardiner in the gardiner thread thats what its there 4 and if ya wana talk in hear then have something to bloody say about training ffs
[quote="mad saint guy"
He has not played any reasonable amount of football for four years.
[/quote]
Not quite true MSG.
He was on the Wet Toast list in 2006 and played three completely uninspiring games before dinging his car after four vodkas and being banished to Claremont for the rest of the season.
He played 11 games for Claremont in '06 where his stats were something like:
120 Hitouts
180 Possessions
25 Goals
Something like that. If you want the exact numbers look up the WAFL website .
He played a lot of his time as a marking forward and taking the hit-outs in the forward 50 whilst Daniel Bandy did the rest, apart from Gardiner having a run on the ball now and then.
He was a shadow of his pre-reco self with a restricted "leap" (to call it a leap would be generous) and the turning circle of a bulldozer. He barely troubled the scorers in the Sandover medal and was an average WAFL player in his 11 games.
I'm in the camp that think he'll fall over at the first hint of match conditions and we'll be lucky to get six games out of him total.
I think he'll end up playing Scorps if he can stay relatively match fit, but most likely will break down at he first sniff of a real game and will be de-listed at the end of '08.
Will be most happy to be proved wrong and taking on board True Believer's post, the outcome could be the complete opposite of my prediction.
My point is, expectations should be very low and then anything else is a bonus.
True Believer wrote:
At this exact point in time our ruck stocks are looking stronger than they have for God knows how many seasons
That is highly debatable.
When some claim our ruck stocks are looking stronger than they have for God knows how many seasons, others feel the need to point out, that it may well be incorrect.
In doing so, some are probably painting a 'doomy' picture to highlight how these saviours of our rucking division are hardly reliable in terms of their availablility.
And even when available, it's still debatable what they have offered in terms of performance over the past 5 years.
Some would call them predictions of doom, I'd call them equally as realistic as your call about our ruck stocks being stronger than they've been in years.
Rodger the fact that we picked up the highly rated McEvoy for the future is enough to put our ruck stocks in front of past years. Add the recruitment of King who showed he is far from finished in last seasons grand final one cant help to think we are far better off.
CURLY wrote:Rodger the fact that we picked up the highly rated McEvoy for the future is enough to put our ruck stocks in front of past years. Add the recruitment of King who showed he is far from finished in last seasons grand final one cant help to think we are far better off.
I don't consider McEvoy as adding to our stocks this year. I highly doubt he'll play, and at this stage make an impact.
As for King, I think he's the pick up of the year by a mile. Schneider is massively overrated, as average as Roos is as a coach he traded him for a reason.
I think King's game in the GF was huge. And it wasn't against duds either, Port's ruck combo is the best going around.
Adding King based on that game certainly puts us in front from previous years.
However, I can certainly understand people's skepticism re his fitness. The facts are overwhelming on his availability over the years.
The same for Gardiner, except that the last good game of footy he played was about 6 years ago. I think it's far fetched to think he improves our ruck stocks at all.
Last edited by rodgerfox on Wed 16 Jan 2008 9:55am, edited 1 time in total.
I think youll find that last year if King and Blake were the same age King would of played all year bar a couple of games. Blake needed a development year and with the success of all around him he could be carried throughout the year until the big one . King was selected because hes one of the true ruckmen in the AFL at present not a 200cm ruck rover.
CURLY wrote:I think youll find that last year if King and Blake were the same age King would of played all year bar a couple of games. Blake needed a development year and with the success of all around him he could be carried throughout the year until the big one . King was selected because hes one of the true ruckmen in the AFL at present not a 200cm ruck rover.
ah..a voice of reason.
With the Cats purring along the Cats had the luxury of easing King through the season to get his body right.
In 2008 I expect the Saints to benefit from the Cats 2007 tactic.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
However I cannt imagine RL keeping M Gardiner on the list....just for the sake of it.
He must obviously believe based on medical advice that Gardiner is a reasonable chance of playing in 2008. As to what level he can play at.....ah that is the question.,,,,as is whether he will relapse with "attitude" problems.
I regard the Gardiner scenario as very different to say Hamill who was on a long term contact (anda Doc I have spoken with who has knowledge of his injury said it's nature made prediction of when he could play virtually impossible)...and who would have had to have been paid out anyway...and for 2008 RL made the tough call and did just that.
King would be a much more certain player than M Gardiner....with the benefit that we pick up King for absoutely nothing......the only real "cost" being that he like Gardiner is takinga place up on the list....but also remember that in recent years the saints have actually played short of their maximum list number anyway.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Wed 16 Jan 2008 10:16am, edited 1 time in total.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
Just a question re Gardener and sceptism about his ability to return to play top football. If he had come without the perceived attitude problems of the past and only the injury concerns would peoples opinions be differant? I beleive many peoples opinions of his return are clouded due to this, many a player has returned from long lay offs and played top footy.
However I cannt imagine RL keeping M Gardiner on the list....just for the sake of it.
He must obviously believe based on medical advice that Gardiner is a reasonable chance of playing in 2008. As to what level he can play at.....ah that is the question.,,,,as is whether he will relaps with "attitude" problems.
I regard the Gardiner scenario as very different to say Hamill who was on a long term contact (anda Doc I have spoken with who has knowledge of his injury said it's nature made prediction of when he could play virtually impossible)...and who would have had to have been paid out anyway...and for 2008 RL made the tough call and did just that.
King would be a much more certain player than M Gardiner....with the benefit that we pick up King for absoutely nothing......the only real "cost" being that he like Gardiner is takinga place up on the list....but also remember that in recent years the saints have actually played short of their maximum list number anyway.
If King is fit, he's good. The GF showed that.
When Gardiner is fit, is he good?
That's the difference. When he was 19, maybe. But there's not much after that to suggest that even if he is fit he will offer much.
CURLY wrote:Just a question re Gardener and sceptism about his ability to return to play top football. If he had come without the perceived attitude problems of the past and only the injury concerns would peoples opinions be differant? I beleive many peoples opinions of his return are clouded due to this, many a player has returned from long lay offs and played top footy.
Exactly - you are either good enough to play at AFL level or you are not. Just because you have not played for awhile doesn't necessarily mean you are no longer a good footballer. Brendan Lade and Shaun Rehn both had seriously long lay-offs that did not mean they lost all ability to play footy at AFL level. Gardner, I reckon wasted his early years with a poor attitude. If his attitude is right and he is obviously now getting himself back to full fitness - we will now look forward to seeing him play footy again. Chances are he still will be able to play the game. I think his form on the track is what has enthused the coaches and he did actually play half a VFL game last year and fairly dominated it. So, time will tell. I'll put $20. on him being a good player for us in 2008.
I want to stand for something. I'm a loyal person and I think at the end of my career it will be great to look back and know that I'm a St Kilda person for life.
- Nick Riewoldt. May 19th 2009.
I hope Gardiner comes back and decemates the competition, but the more likley senario is he will play a couple of ordinary games and break down again..
based on what>?
riccardo wrote:
At the moment, this very second, he is a waste of money, effort and time. I really he won't always be, but history suggests otherwise.
