Goddard's Back???

[Vortex]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

Becsue that happened over in the west at a club the Melbourne media don't give a stuff about, RL was given a hell of alot of latitude, that won't happen in Melbourne, ESPECIALLY at the Saints.

If RL gets any one of those results in his first 2 seasons he will be under immense pressure.

Here's a fun game , try and predict when the Prez will be forced to admit we are in a full rebuild?....the letter to members will go something like...."I always knew we would need to give Ross 5 years to rebuild".

[cwrcyn]

Thanks for the advice WellardSaint. With that attitude, you should stay in more.

[amusingname]

Never have I seen a better mark than Goddards in the GF in the goal square in the GF in the last - right in front of me !!! At that point I thought we had it - BRING HIM DOWN

Were you the bloke sitting behind me in the ponsford stand in the bay next to the pies cheersquad, who hugged me when he marked and kicked the goal and said ‘we have got this!’? If so, I have blamed you for the last 12 years for jinxing us!

[samuraisaint]

Well, one thing's for sure, training standards are going to lift in intensity now.

And so will internal expectations.

[samuraisaint]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

[The Fireman]

I predict improvement

[saynta]

I predict improvement

Plus one.

[Sanctorum]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

[Teflon]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

Geezus…
“Your good friend Vortex” whose basically barracking fit club failure in appointing Lyon and you’re along for the ride cause it suits your “it’s all just the list..” dribble
What rot
Again, EVERYONE knows the list ain’t too 4
But it’s better than 3-8 second half season with game stats showing a bottom 4 team. This list is not bottom 4
Does it mean with a new coach that year 1 might be a step backwards??? Ofcourse that’s possible
But I expect from Yr 2 onwards improvement
Why????
We will have training standards
We will have a structured game plan where players KNOW what’s expected
We will have selection integrity - you don’t perform you won’t play
We will start to weed out duds who enjoy coasting and not working
We will have an injury management approach that is 1st class
I expect Lyon will drag 10-15% extra from role players…he’s done it often but in time we need to add class ….that won’t be immediate
You just keep wishing/telling us all with your “mate” Vortex we’ll fail cause the list is cr@p ….

[B.M]

Season in two halves - we were 8-3 at one point

[skeptic]

We will have selection integrity - you don’t perform you won’t play
We will start to weed out duds who enjoy coasting and not working

Geeez I hope you’re right about this part.

It’s a tough balance between picking players that do what they’re told vs other measures of good performance.

Can’t say that I felt that the previous model of RL nailed that balance.

However as has been pointed out… with no major recruits, he has to better develop what he has which makes me feel more optimistic that this will be the case as he can’t afford to carry stragglers.
One feels that Ratts and AR never felt that urgency. I feel like even though he comes in with no pressure currently… RL doesn’t have the luxury of wasting a lot of time. There are expectations in a year or two and the hype is already climbing with the positive noise they’re making

[Teflon]

We will have selection integrity - you don’t perform you won’t play
We will start to weed out duds who enjoy coasting and not working

Geeez I hope you’re right about this part.

It’s a tough balance between picking players that do what they’re told vs other measures of good performance.

Can’t say that I felt that the previous model of RL nailed that balance.

However as has been pointed out… with no major recruits, he has to better develop what he has which makes me feel more optimistic that this will be the case as he can’t afford to carry stragglers.
One feels that Ratts and AR never felt that urgency. I feel like even though he comes in with no pressure currently… RL doesn’t have the luxury of wasting a lot of time. There are expectations in a year or two and the hype is already climbing with the positive noise they’re making

I look at it like this
Our coaching was woeful last year
Even at 8-3 we had no 4 quarter efforts just eked out wins off individual brilliance eg King goes nuts against Tigers etc
I think Lyon is a far better coach than Ratten and Richo that alone means it can’t go as bad as we were going..,
Personally I could care less if we slid back a few olaces next year, grab some top 10 draft talent (we need it) with a view to launching year 2-3
I’m not interested in a sugar hit - we’ve been down too long
I want sustained success ….finals 5/7 years type thing and still bringing kids in
I’d be telling Lyon - this is your chance to shut up all those ass cr@ck whiners saying you have to be handed gift wrapped lists…prove you can mould a side from ok to great ..
My real fear??? Recruiting
I’d have said we’d pulled off a massive coup had we landed Cripps….but alas …we haven’t
Glad SOS was a miss though …

[Teflon]

Season in two halves - we were 8-3 at one point

How many 4 quarter amazing wins you have out of those?????
Looking binary at W/L doesn’t work
Ratten didn’t get sacked on losing 3-8
He got sacked cause of the way we were losing …rudderless

[Teflon]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

This from Triggering BF is a great post and sums up why I don’t buy “the list is sh!t” theory:

********

From memory we were being written off in 2007 and leading into 2008 as having missed our chance and needing a rebuild. We had some absolute guns but lacked depth. Roo and Hayes were elite. Goddard built his reputation as a big game player after RTB spent a couple of years developing him. Same with Sam Fisher. Guys like Dal Santo, Milne and even Montagna went from flaky and inconsistent to legit A graders. Talented players like Ball, Kosi and X Clarke never had the opportunity to fulfil their talent under RTB. As you mentioned, many senior guys retired around that time as well. Guys like Gilbert, Dawson, even Schnieder, Gwilt, etc were prime examples of role players. Kosi became a role player. We had that many different ruck man. Gardiner was hardly around.

Whilst that 08-10 team was the best Saints team I have ever seen, it overachieved on the back of 3-4 elite players, 3-4 A graders and a dozen role players that RTB got absolutely the very best out of. Our team now has far more depth but is obviously missing the 3-4 elite players and 3-4 consistent A grade performers. I'm not saying we will reach the same heights, but RTB has a lot to work with. It's no wonder he has taken on this team - he sees a lot of unfulfilled talent.

[samuraisaint]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

Paddy was important in the wins we had with him in the side - and case in point - we beat Port and Brisbane this year and make finals if he played.
Hannebery only played 3 games sure, but if we had him next year and he played more than 3 games, I am sure we would win more games than without him there. On Long; I believe he makes our best 22 and felt that there are others making the side who had less impact than he would have had he played a full game. Remember the Western Bulldogs match?

We may drop back and win a couple of less games based on a new game style, coaches etc. I am bullish about our prospects though, but to win more than 11 games requires us to have lots of luck with injuries.

[Sanctorum]

Geezus…
“Your good friend Vortex” whose basically barracking fit club failure in appointing Lyon and you’re along for the ride cause it suits your “it’s all just the list..” dribble
What rot
Again, EVERYONE knows the list ain’t too 4
But it’s better than 3-8 second half season with game stats showing a bottom 4 team. This list is not bottom 4
Does it mean with a new coach that year 1 might be a step backwards??? Ofcourse that’s possible
But I expect from Yr 2 onwards improvement
Why????
We will have training standards
We will have a structured game plan where players KNOW what’s expected
We will have selection integrity - you don’t perform you won’t play
We will start to weed out duds who enjoy coasting and not working
We will have an injury management approach that is 1st class
I expect Lyon will drag 10-15% extra from role players…he’s done it often but in time we need to add class ….that won’t be immediate
You just keep wishing/telling us all with your “mate” Vortex we’ll fail cause the list is cr@p ….

Holy Cow you get fired up Teflon, always on a volatile and bitter attack against anyone that has the temerity to have a different view of things to you - go easy on the anger, relax, life's good, so much to enjoy....and if I had reason to quote you in my posts, knowing that we'd clashed a few times I'd probably also be tempted to refer to you as "my good friend Teflon"

[skeptic]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

This from Triggering BF is a great post and sums up why I don’t buy “the list is sh!t” theory:

********

From memory we were being written off in 2007 and leading into 2008 as having missed our chance and needing a rebuild. We had some absolute guns but lacked depth. Roo and Hayes were elite. Goddard built his reputation as a big game player after RTB spent a couple of years developing him. Same with Sam Fisher. Guys like Dal Santo, Milne and even Montagna went from flaky and inconsistent to legit A graders. Talented players like Ball, Kosi and X Clarke never had the opportunity to fulfil their talent under RTB. As you mentioned, many senior guys retired around that time as well. Guys like Gilbert, Dawson, even Schnieder, Gwilt, etc were prime examples of role players. Kosi became a role player. We had that many different ruck man. Gardiner was hardly around.

Whilst that 08-10 team was the best Saints team I have ever seen, it overachieved on the back of 3-4 elite players, 3-4 A graders and a dozen role players that RTB got absolutely the very best out of. Our team now has far more depth but is obviously missing the 3-4 elite players and 3-4 consistent A grade performers. I'm not saying we will reach the same heights, but RTB has a lot to work with. It's no wonder he has taken on this team - he sees a lot of unfulfilled talent.

Needing a rebuild!!!!

That’s a bit rich surely. Sure, some players needed to be transitioned out as Hamil was finishing up, Gehrig was done, Harvey had another year etc so yes I’ll accept that the list needed a tweak…

But Riewoldt, Kosi, Hayes, Goddard, Monty, Dal, Fisher, Baker, Hudghton, Gram, Blake, Gwilt, Clarkes x2, Geary etc is not a list that needed to be built from the ground up.

And in any one’s language, bringing in Ray, Peake, Gardiner, King, Schnieder, Dempster and Dawson is not a rebuild

[Vortex]

The coaches are all a big tick for me. The big question I have is 'does the current list have the same drive/want for success as their coaches'? I think the answer for many is 'no'. It's going to take a few years of turning the list over and recruiting a bunch of players which have the 'drive'. I think the state competitions would be best for this e.g. Hayes, Wilkie, Lambert, Milne the list goes on, all of these guys had to work their butts off.

You have painted a beautiful picture of the elephant in the room, the list is still bog average with a severe mental fragility.

Not everyone responds well to "driving standads" and so it's hilarious listening to fan boys predicting RL has some type of impressive magic wand that can turn a cane toad into supreme A grade fighting machine. The reality could be we lose many and I suspect that is why we are now officially in a rebuild confirmed by Bassett saying we need to go backwards first.

Yep.
I just can’t get the numbers 16, 14, 14, 13 out of my head.
The ladder position Fremantle finished in the last 4 years under Lyon. He ain’t the messiah.

While there are salient and valid points made in each of these posts, and even I think we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games, like maybe nine (mainly due to the losses of Ryder, Hannebery and Long - who are all in our best 22), I actually believe the list is a pretty good one. Our main problem has been injuries which has severely restricted the output of the team since 2020. Had we not had the long layoff in the winter of 2020 we may not have had Gesham for the entire season and not had Hannebery for the finals.

If we can find another three juniors like Owens, Wanganeen-Milera and Windhager, and three more mature aged rookies like Hayes, Sharman and Wilkie, we will be looking good.

Of the 3 players you mentioned samuraisaint only Paddy had a reasonable impact in the 11 wins, Hannebery only played 3 games 2 of which were in a losing side, and Ben Long had mostly only average impact until his swansong BOG in Rd 23. That doesn't even remotely justify your comment that "we may drop back in 2023 and win a couple of less games".

If you really beleve that "the list is a pretty good one" I would have thought you'd be quite bullish about the team's prospects in 2023 as it is generally agreed that under the new coaching panel under the leadership of Walsh and Lyon the team will be much improved in many ways, not least skill levels, teamwork and intensity, especially in the form of players with potential that has yet to be brought out.

My good friend Vortex, who believes that things might go arse up, mentions that Bassat is hedging his bets with the comment that the team might have to go backwards (before going forward) that's what anyone in his position would say, he's simply keeping a lid on things. It is patently obvious, in actions rather than words, that the club is in rebuild mode - viz bringing in youth through the drafts and refraining from actively participating in the UFA and RFA plays during the off-season.

This from Triggering BF is a great post and sums up why I don’t buy “the list is sh!t” theory:

********

From memory we were being written off in 2007 and leading into 2008 as having missed our chance and needing a rebuild. We had some absolute guns but lacked depth. Roo and Hayes were elite. Goddard built his reputation as a big game player after RTB spent a couple of years developing him. Same with Sam Fisher. Guys like Dal Santo, Milne and even Montagna went from flaky and inconsistent to legit A graders. Talented players like Ball, Kosi and X Clarke never had the opportunity to fulfil their talent under RTB. As you mentioned, many senior guys retired around that time as well. Guys like Gilbert, Dawson, even Schnieder, Gwilt, etc were prime examples of role players. Kosi became a role player. We had that many different ruck man. Gardiner was hardly around.

Whilst that 08-10 team was the best Saints team I have ever seen, it overachieved on the back of 3-4 elite players, 3-4 A graders and a dozen role players that RTB got absolutely the very best out of. Our team now has far more depth but is obviously missing the 3-4 elite players and 3-4 consistent A grade performers. I'm not saying we will reach the same heights, but RTB has a lot to work with. It's no wonder he has taken on this team - he sees a lot of unfulfilled talent.

Needing a rebuild!!!!

That’s a bit rich surely. Sure, some players needed to be transitioned out as Hamil was finishing up, Gehrig was done, Harvey had another year etc so yes I’ll accept that the list needed a tweak…

But Riewoldt, Kosi, Hayes, Goddard, Monty, Dal, Fisher, Baker, Hudghton, Gram, Blake, Gwilt, Clarkes x2, Geary etc is not a list that needed to be built from the ground up.

And in any one’s language, bringing in Ray, Peake, Gardiner, King, Schnieder, Dempster and Dawson is not a rebuild

Good to see someone was paying attention to the comic relief.

On Goddard it's great to see RL has now surrounded himself with YES men.

Don't get me wrong, it's going to be absolutely fascinating watching the RL experiment unfold, I have a lot of man love for the guy and even followed him closely while at Freo and always wanted Freo to do well while he was there.

Having said that we now get to see RL have a second attempt at rebuilding a team as he clearly failed in that regard with his first attempt at Freo.

[The Fireman]

Out ratten in RTB

Me happy now

[Josh Battle]

… it's great to see RL has now surrounded himself with YES men.

How many assistant coaches under his tutelage have gone on to be senior coaches in the AFL?

Any?

Maybe he does basically want YES men

[cwrcyn]

Bottom line is he's organised and meticulous. The only thing that matters is that it works.

Whatever game plan we have in 2023, no player will be confused over what's expected of them in any given situation on the ground

[Life Long Saint]

Wonder if he'll have his own dedicated thread each week, like he did on this forum in his playing days.

[Vortex]

… it's great to see RL has now surrounded himself with YES men.

How many assistant coaches under his tutelage have gone on to be senior coaches in the AFL?

Any?

Maybe he does basically want YES men

Live by the sword is what we are witnessing.

[shanegrambeau]

I don't know if Goddard is good or not, but it speaks to me of unity and common purpose..the same page. I love it.

It doesn't reek of career managers ticking off metrics and working in isolated bubbles...sod that!!

And I think Samurai's point is wrong re: injury. I think it is a myth to think that St Kilda was cruelled by injury from 2020 - 2022. Sure, Brisbane and Melbourne and earlier Richmond had great runs, but then that is top two -top four type conversation stuff. I think our lowly position was more due to list, list management, selection, development etc.

We were not too badly off. Coffield had been patchy in '21 before going out. He wasn't a big gun. Paton was a loss in '21 but we had emerging players who did OK injury wise in '22 and Sharman, Highmore* who were fit and available. Webster had a good run. King and Membrey went OK Battle and Wilkie smooth sailing..Even Marshall, with his dodgy back was available (that could be worse) Butler, went OK.. We were relatively lucky IMO. Gresh was the bad one - anfd perhaps, DMAc, the seasons surprise packet getting repeated calf problems after his whack..also hurt. BUt with Windy, and NWM - you'd argue, on balance, we had enough talent available to be competitive, and not fold like we did to Essendon etc., The Saints now know that Gresh and Billings are injury prone, and should plan accordingly. Higgins played a decent amount of games but was not so good after his concussion, so I guess you could call that injury casualty.

[Teflon]

Geezus…
“Your good friend Vortex” whose basically barracking fit club failure in appointing Lyon and you’re along for the ride cause it suits your “it’s all just the list..” dribble
What rot
Again, EVERYONE knows the list ain’t too 4
But it’s better than 3-8 second half season with game stats showing a bottom 4 team. This list is not bottom 4
Does it mean with a new coach that year 1 might be a step backwards??? Ofcourse that’s possible
But I expect from Yr 2 onwards improvement
Why????
We will have training standards
We will have a structured game plan where players KNOW what’s expected
We will have selection integrity - you don’t perform you won’t play
We will start to weed out duds who enjoy coasting and not working
We will have an injury management approach that is 1st class
I expect Lyon will drag 10-15% extra from role players…he’s done it often but in time we need to add class ….that won’t be immediate
You just keep wishing/telling us all with your “mate” Vortex we’ll fail cause the list is cr@p ….

Holy Cow you get fired up Teflon, always on a volatile and bitter attack against anyone that has the temerity to have a different view of things to you - go easy on the anger, relax, life's good, so much to enjoy....and if I had reason to quote you in my posts, knowing that we'd clashed a few times I'd probably also be tempted to refer to you as "my good friend Teflon"

Lol volatile and bitter attack…you might need to toughen the skin up a tad mate …it’s a footy forum not a road rage incident…
That aside I do get flabbergasted by some of the nonsensical stuff you put up
I’ll try keep my “rage” in check lol