What helped St Kilda “over-perform” in 2016-2017 if it wasn’t Richo?

[shanegrambeau]

OK. I am devils advocate again, as I can’t see why I should disagree with the idea about change, however W. Carey suggested the Saints played above themselves in ‘16 and ‘17 on MMM Rub today when they discussed St Kilda. Now that Richo is number one target at the shooting range, I’m just wondering, how do we explain that St Kilda came close to making finals both years? Isn’t over performing the mark of a good coach?

[parkeysainter]

It was a different feel in 16 and 17. Maybe Montagna and Riewoldt pushed us to play and train better. Who knows.

Knowing St Kilda, we will probably bounce right back next year. We definitely won't be as s*** as we were this year. There are LOTS of changes coming.

[SaintPav]

You can’t play above yourself. It’s impossible.

[BenLong#21]

OK. I am devils advocate again, as I can’t see why I should disagree with the idea about change, however W. Carey suggested the Saints played above themselves in ‘16 and ‘17 on MMM Rub today when they discussed St Kilda. Now that Richo is number one target at the shooting range, I’m just wondering, how do we explain that St Kilda came close to making finals both years? Isn’t over performing the mark of a good coach?

1. Nick Riewoldt.
2. Dream run with injuries.
3. Other teams were even worse (e.g. Essendon were rubbed out in 2016 and we got to play them twice so that was 2 wins for free although they almost beat us in Rd 16 2016).

The wheels then really fell off against Essendon in Rd 17 2017 and we have been basically hopeless ever since.
I think the players lost faith in the game plan and coaches at that stage.

[rodgerfox]

The more I see Reiwoldt speak, the more I think he was not only a star player, but also a star coach and leader also.

I was quite critical of him back in his playing days at times, but man, I think he may have carried the joint.

[BenLong#21]

The more I see Reiwoldt speak, the more I think he was not only a star player, but also a star coach and leader also.

I was quite critical of him back in his playing days at times, but man, I think he may have carried the joint.

I agree.
The more I hear him speak I think the same thing.
It is now becoming clearer he was probably carrying the joint on and off field...

[bobmurray]

The worst club in the AFL, that sometimes rises above mediocrity then somehow, comfortably, finds itself back there.

[Ape_Man]

We didn’t over perform.

Unless finishing outside the 8 some kind of aspirational goal.

We won some and lost more. Frustratingly showed glimpses of brilliance and mediocrity.

The burning question is weather it is the cattle or the coaches?

My position is that, mathematically, we just couldn’t have got nearly every pick wrong over the years.

I can’t be bothered to do the statistical work but would estimate the chances of getting most choices wrong to be an improbable number.

It’s not the talent. It’s the system.

Our system is an abomination.

[Joffa Burns]

OK. I am devils advocate again, as I can’t see why I should disagree with the idea about change, however W. Carey suggested the Saints played above themselves in ‘16 and ‘17 on MMM Rub today when they discussed St Kilda. Now that Richo is number one target at the shooting range, I’m just wondering, how do we explain that St Kilda came close to making finals both years? Isn’t over performing the mark of a good coach?

It’s a good question!

The 16/17 model was manic pressure and when they got it right they won games and were competitive.

We had minimal injuries and with the leadership of Roo players like Bruce and Weller played good football.

The group appears to no longer have faith in “Saints footy” and the manic pressure style and there is a leadership void in the club.

[Ape_Man]

OK. I am devils advocate again, as I can’t see why I should disagree with the idea about change, however W. Carey suggested the Saints played above themselves in ‘16 and ‘17 on MMM Rub today when they discussed St Kilda. Now that Richo is number one target at the shooting range, I’m just wondering, how do we explain that St Kilda came close to making finals both years? Isn’t over performing the mark of a good coach?

It’s a good question!

The 16/17 model was manic pressure and when they got it right they won games and were competitive.

We had minimal injuries and with the leadership of Roo players like Bruce and Weller played good football.

The group appears to no longer have faith in “Saints footy” and the manic pressure style and there is a leadership void in the club.

Leadership is possibly our biggest problem.

Watching us play, it seems we are waiting for someone to step up.

We are waiting for someone to lead.

We are not developing or nurturing leaders. We are just waiting for one.

[Scollop]

"We are not developing or nurturing leaders. We are just waiting for one"

Beautiful. That's poetry. Richo does not know how to teach leadership because he isn't a leader.

This team had a few spiritual leaders and senior star players who drove standards and helped guide our young players. Now that Fisher, Schneider, Dempster, Roo and Joey are gone the coach is lost. He's searching for leadership from external avenues when he should be looking at himself and looking within.

He overuses the word 'strong' because he lacks inner strength

[Ape_Man]

I have posted this before and will continue to do so when necessary

Ken Sheldon: 4 years, 2 finals years.

Stan Alves: 5 years, 2 finals years.

Thomas 5 and a caretaker role: 3 finals years

Ross Lyon 5 years and 4 finals years.

Alan Richardson 5 years and ZERO finals

As a St Kilda supporter, I can’t remember if finals are important. Going by our current coaches record I have to assume they are not.

[saintbob]

No.12 retired and we lost the real spiritual leader and basically the on ground coach which has exposed to us all that the Insipid One is just that and can’t coach.

[groupie1]

I agree with the answers related to loss of leadership, but think there is something else. Disposal has been so much worse this year from a number of players who used to use it well. Seb Ross' bombs in the air vs his neat short passes of yesteryear... Carlisle's cute little passes that rarely hit targets... Dunstan has worsened from not great to awful... Geary is getting record disposal numbers this year, and, well... we see what that's done... Sinclair is coughing it up and was great by foot last year... Acres has been injured for much of the year... Roberton has been out... Roo and Joey used the ball well...

So I think there is a disposal issue... which creates frustration, and hesitation - creating more disposal issues...

So for me the biggest answer to this is our disposal efficiency has gone through the floor, which is damaging enough, and creates a bunch of knock-on effects.

Anyone agree?

[saintbob]

I agree with the answers related to loss of leadership, but think there is something else. Disposal has been so much worse this year from a number of players who used to use it well. Seb Ross' bombs in the air vs his neat short passes of yesteryear... Carlisle's cute little passes that rarely hit targets... Dunstan has worsened from not great to awful... Geary is getting record disposal numbers this year, and, well... we see what that's done... Sinclair is coughing it up and was great by foot last year... Acres has been injured for much of the year... Roberton has been out... Roo and Joey used the ball well...

So I think there is a disposal issue... which creates frustration, and hesitation - creating more disposal issues...

So for me the biggest answer to this is our disposal efficiency has gone through the floor, which is damaging enough, and creates a bunch of knock-on effects.

Anyone agree?

Our terrible disposal is exacerbated by the lack of a decent game plan, the players get the ball and most of the time are forced to go backwards or sideways because there are no options forward of the ball.

[st.byron]

"We are not developing or nurturing leaders. We are just waiting for one"

Beautiful. That's poetry. Richo does not know how to teach leadership because he isn't a leader.

This team had a few spiritual leaders and senior star players who drove standards and helped guide our young players. Now that Fisher, Schneider, Dempster, Roo and Joey are gone the coach is lost. He's searching for leadership from external avenues when he should be looking at himself and looking within.

He overuses the word 'strong' because he lacks inner strength

Hell yeah. This is the issue. Leadership from the top of the triangle. It’s non existent.

[st.byron]

I agree with the answers related to loss of leadership, but think there is something else. Disposal has been so much worse this year from a number of players who used to use it well. Seb Ross' bombs in the air vs his neat short passes of yesteryear... Carlisle's cute little passes that rarely hit targets... Dunstan has worsened from not great to awful... Geary is getting record disposal numbers this year, and, well... we see what that's done... Sinclair is coughing it up and was great by foot last year... Acres has been injured for much of the year... Roberton has been out... Roo and Joey used the ball well...

So I think there is a disposal issue... which creates frustration, and hesitation - creating more disposal issues...

So for me the biggest answer to this is our disposal efficiency has gone through the floor, which is damaging enough, and creates a bunch of knock-on effects.

Anyone agree?

Agree about our ball use. But the question has to be asked, why? It comes back to leadership. Quality of disposal, any skill execution, is a product of the quality of, a players’ mental state and of practice. Repeated repetition of any skill will train a player in its execution. And repeated execution of any mental state whilst executing a skill will also train the player. At the moment they’re playing like they’re mentally shot. No confidence, no cohesion, no clear unity and purpose. In every moment of the game, where are they mentally? If they have no confidence, trust and belief in their ieaders, eventually that becomes apparent in their performance and skill execution. And that’s what we’re seeing. I just don’t believe that an entire group of professional, young, elite athletes are collectively delivering the best they can when week after week we see the same inconsistencies and mistakes. And we’ve seen them perform at a high level in some games. So they can do it. Richardson can bang on every week about learning from errors, training strongly etc etc, but the elephant in the room is that he’s the main problem.

[rodgerfox]

So I think there is a disposal issue... which creates frustration, and hesitation - creating more disposal issues...

So for me the biggest answer to this is our disposal efficiency has gone through the floor, which is damaging enough, and creates a bunch of knock-on effects.

Anyone agree?

I think it's the lack of system and cohesion that makes us look so unskilled.

Set shots aside, an accurate kick or handball takes two to make it such.

You could pinpoint a pass to the precise spot on the field you're aiming for - but if there's no one there to receive it, it's not an accurate kick. If the receiver either didn't know you were kicking it there, or wanted it kicked somewhere else - it's an ineffective disposal.

Highly skilled teams rarely improve their actual footskills. If a bloke can't kick a footy by the time he's 22 or 23, it's rare that they'll suddenly learn to.
It's the cohesion and system which makes disposals effective.

If my teammates all know where and when I'm putting the ball, and I know that my teammates will be where I'm putting the ball - we all suddenly look incredibly skillful.


Watching the Saints these days, it seems that no one knows what each other is doing, or is going to do.

Even when we do score, it seems as if it was by accident. It's just chaotic.

[remboy]

In 2016 we had a soft draw. We played 7 games against the bottom 4 who were pathetic. It inflated some peoples idea of where we're at. Factoring than we had shown gradual improvement each year under Richo.
Unfortunately, which ever way you look at it, this year has been a disaster. Yep, we lost some experience and our draw might have been tougher but nothing excuses being uncompetitive or only trying for one quarter each week (which is the way it looks to me).

[BenLong#21]

Poor system and fitness make the disposal bad.

[st.byron]

System, fitness, selection......all factors, but where players are at mentally when they run onto the ground is the common denominator.

[rodgerfox]

Worth noting too that Essendon were 'banned' in 2016 - and given we played them twice the 12 wins was realistically only 10.

So for people to reflect on the halcyon days of 16/17 is pretty misguided.

We basically had 10 real wins plus 2 more against Essendon's reserves team, then 11 from 22 the following year.

It was hardly performance to hang your hat on as a coach.

[happy feet]

Roo and Monty coached us from the field, it is as simple as that. Now they're gone we are finding that the Emporer has no clothes.

[happy feet]

Roo and Monty coached us from the field, it is as simple as that. Now they're gone we are finding that the Emporer has no clothes.

[kaos theory]

Roo and Monty coached us from the field, it is as simple as that. Now they're gone we are finding that the Emporer has no clothes.

Pretty much true....

Roo & Monty came from a culture of hard work, game plans, and 'non-negotiables' in your performance and attitude on the field. They, along with the few others remaining from that successful 09-10 era were a strong presence on the field and training track to drive the younger players.

Once they left, there was a vacuum on the field and training track, which was only matched by the vacuum between the ears of our coach Richo.

Their leaving has exposed the coach as the fraud that he his. Incredibly, our stupid Management and Admin, asleep at the wheel, gave this guy a 2 year extension, when there were many clear warning signs that this coach was not up to the task.