Effort

[BigMart]

Is this how we measure a performance?

Would love to ask AR this question too?...

[Wayne42]

Is this how we measure a performance?

Would love to ask AR this question too?...

The whole comp is judged on win / loss.

Anything else is smoke and mirrors shite.

[bbm]

I reckon about 9/10 that's pretty good.
Without effort you have nothing

[BigMart]

Effort on its own means little as well... otherwise any team is able to win

Structure, tactics, Game Plan are important

Skill, Composed decisions, and finishing more important

Effort without execution is worthless

[Enrico_Misso]

Alan,where was the effort last week?

[SemperFidelis]

I'd rather see effort and lose than see what we served up last week.

Of course effort needs to be accompanied by skill, but without the former the latter is irrelevant. IMHO.

[BigMart]

I'd rather see us win

[SemperFidelis]

I'd rather see us win

We all would.

[bbm]

yeah all of us would like to get the win.
but the effort and trend is much better.
ill stay positive because its a much better place to be in
the coach now has a lot to work with rarher than throwing all of the toys out of the cot

[Con Gorozidis]

This is the AFL.
You need effort and skill and a few other ingredients as well.
You need it all because the other sides all have good players who try hard as well.

[Johnny Member]

Effort on its own means little as well... otherwise any team is able to win

Structure, tactics, Game Plan are important

Skill, Composed decisions, and finishing more important

Effort without execution is worthless

I think the point is that execution without the ball is worthless. And without effort, you don't get the ball.

And, effort defensively impacts your opponents ability to execute.



Teams often 'win ugly', but teams never 'win soft'.



Granted though, effort and intensity without skill and execution won't win a GF.


But the suggestion creeping in that we only care about effort and don't rate skill, is off the mark.

I just don't think we have the calibre of player to consistently execute against teams that turn the heat up on us.

[Johnny Member]

I'd rather see effort and lose than see what we served up last week.

Of course effort needs to be accompanied by skill, but without the former the latter is irrelevant. IMHO.

Totally agree.

[Johnny Member]

On topic....



Paul Roos has suggested Collingwood does not work hard enough defensively, comparing them to the intensity from the Western Bulldogs and Sydney in Friday night's game.

Speaking on the Sunday Rub, Roos highlighted the tackle figures from Collingwood, and in particular their midfielders.


"The Richmond/Collingwood game on Thursday night, it was 58 tackles to 55. The reigning premiers versus the runner up, 84 tackles to 74," he said.

"What I'm saying is if you're trying to establish a game style, it has to be built around what the premiership teams do."

"Where I'm a little bit more critical of Collingwood, it's more around their midfield brigade. Everyone said (Adam) Treloar had a fantastic game, now offensively one hundred percent I agree.

"I don't want to get on Treloar because I don't know what 'Bucks' is telling his midfield to do. But the tackles in the midfield were Pendlebury four, Treloar two, Crisp one and Sidebottom one. Taylor Adams, who I rate really highly, has had seven."

Roos said it paled in comparison to the pressure and defensive effort of the Bulldogs and the Swans.

"(Will) Hayward's played his first game for the Sydney Swans, he's had six tackles," he said.

"(Nic) Newman's played his first game for the Swans, he's had six tackles. (Ollie) Florent's played his second game for the Swans, he's had two tackles, 29 pressure acts - the second most for Sydney.

"(Tom) Liberatore's had 16 tackles, (Jack) Macrae's had eight tackles, (Marcus) Bontempelli's had seven tackles and (Lin) Jong's had seven tackles.

"Let's forget the hysteria around the coach, et cetera et cetera - and there's obviously some issues around their kicking and so forth - but if I'm a Collingwood supporter, I'm looking at the Bulldogs/Sydney game on the Friday night and I'm saying, well they're the premiers and they're the runners up.

"I want my team to play like that."

[BigMart]

A team that relies on effort as a KPI really suggests they are battlers

Speaking of following premiership trends, Hawthorn are the most recent juggernaut

Not a pressure team at all, they relied on tactics and execution
Just expected effort

[Johnny Member]

A team that relies on effort as a KPI really suggests they are battlers

Speaking of following premiership trends, Hawthorn are the most recent juggernaut

Not a pressure team at all, they relied on tactics and execution
Just expected effort

??

What??!


Hawthorn's entire system was based on their pressure and intensity.

[Johnny Member]

The Hawks ran out unconvincing 26-point winners over the Suns – matched by the visitors for all but a six-goal third term burst which proved the match-winner.

Clarkson lamented his side’s lack of tackling vigour afterwards, which resulted in the Suns always being in the contest despite the Hawks dominating the inside-50s.

“We just didn’t play with the type of endeavour (required), we didn’t tackle or put pressure on the Gold Coast enough in the first half,” he said.

“We allowed them to control the ball far too easily and that resulted in a lot of easy goals for them.

“The third quarter we tackled. It was probably the only phase of the game when the game was played on our terms.”




The Hawks rank No.1 in the AFL for team pressure across the whole ground with 9.9 pressure points.

Backline: Josh Gibson leads the Hawks with 9.5 points and is ranked No.28 in the AFL. As a team the Hawks rank third with 8.3 points.

Midfield: Liam Shiels is the top-ranked midfielder in the AFL when it comes to pressure with 51.7 points. As a team the Hawks rank first with 10.2 points.

Forwards: Paul Puopolo is the top-ranked forward in the AFL when it comes to pressure with 19.2 points. As a team the Hawks ranked second with 15.5 points.

Pressure king: Liam Shiels – 68.4 pressure points a game anywhere on the ground (No.1 in the AFL)

[BigMart]

What the hell do those stats even mean

68.2 pressure points

You think Liam Shiels is their most important player?? And Pupolo
They are role players

Blind Freddy knows it's the kicking execution of Hodge, Mitchell, Rioli, Birchall, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lewis, Gunston... and the run of Smith and Hill that won them flags

If it was pressure
Anyone could have matched them... notoriously low for contested ball and tackling pressure

Notoriously efficient by foot

[Johnny Member]

What the hell do those stats even mean

68.2 pressure points

You think Liam Shiels is their most important player?? And Pupolo
They are role players

Blind Freddy knows it's the kicking execution of Hodge, Mitchell, Rioli, Birchall, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lewis, Gunston... and the run of Smith and Hill that won them flags

If it was pressure
Anyone could have matched them... notoriously low for contested ball and tackling pressure

Notoriously efficient by foot

Efficient by foot, no doubt. Very highly skilled and had about 10 genuinely elite players.

But....they also excelled in their pressure and intensity and were vulnerable when they didn't bring their A-game in this area.



Clarkson son is the first to consistently point to their pressure as their backbone.


Pressure alone won't win you a flag. But neither will 'talent' and skill. Nothing alone will.


All coaches, especially the successful ones, all point to pressure and intensity as the cornerstone of their game. Without it, you don't win finals let alone flags.



Puopolo and Shiel may not be the most important players, but they'd be close. Especially Puopolo. Clarkson puts an absolute premium on pressure and intensity. Without it, you don't get the pill, and your opponent has time to pick holes in your defence.

[Johnny Member]

What the hell do those stats even mean

68.2 pressure points

You think Liam Shiels is their most important player?? And Pupolo
They are role players

Blind Freddy knows it's the kicking execution of Hodge, Mitchell, Rioli, Birchall, Burgoyne, Gibson, Lewis, Gunston... and the run of Smith and Hill that won them flags

If it was pressure
Anyone could have matched them... notoriously low for contested ball and tackling pressure

Notoriously efficient by foot

How do they get the ball?

[Johnny Member]

What the hell do those stats even mean

68.2 pressure points

"The system determines where and how a player influences a contest and whether the player's effort then results in a positive result for his team. Equity Ratings includes what coaches love to describe as "pressure acts". As a result, players are rewarded for interrupting opposition passages of play as well as setting up scores for their own team."

[Con Gorozidis]

I'm sure our pressure stats were good last night.
But we still lost comfortably in the end.
Because we can't kick.
Same reason Lleyton Hewitt wasn't as good as Rogers Federer.
Lleyton tried just as hard or harder but still won about 20 less grand slams than Fed.
Same reason a street brawler won't be an accurate boxer in a boxing match.

[Bluthy]

As much as I cringe if I hear this at work (usually means they want to increase my workload), there is truth in it and its true for footy games too.

There is dumb effort and smart effort. How clever is your gameplan in channelling players energies into effectiveness on the field. Hawks were the master of this. Clarksons clever zoning (they wouldn't neccesarily chase their opponent across the field but let another zone pick them up) and ability to the keep the footy let them save their energies and they could ramp things up when they really needed it playing breath-taking burst football.

You can't play full on all the time. You need some down time to let the lactic acid drain away and get your breath back and compose yourself. Yes you can use the bench for that but can also do it on the field by keeping the ball and making the oppo chase to wear them down. You can control the tempo to suit yourself.

Its like war - you don't throw all your troops at the enemy at once even if you think you are stronger than them. You have to sustain the effort with supply lines and rotation of troops and strategic thinking to attack certain spots at certain times as the war could go on for years. Win the war (the game), not just the battle (one or two quarters)

I worry our problems with stopping oppo momentum is because players get exhausted from so much pressuring and harassing that we just fall in a hole. Our inability to keep the footy means we do a lot of turnovers and have to chase tail and pressure to get it back. WE had to work so damn hard in that first qtr against Melbourne the players looked completely exhausted. We one the first quarter battle, but used up a lot of troops.

You can't ask for super human effort every week. A clever, multi-faceted onfield system and cultivating players with good disposal gives you more options and a fall back game if you hit flat spots - which all teams will. It gives you sustainability over a game, the year, into finals which stretches players fitness and over multiple seasons. It's a marathon not a sprint as they say and you can wear yourself sprinting all the time. Save some of your energies for when you do need to sprint.

[Johnny Member]

I'm sure our pleasure stats were good last night.
But we still lost comfortably in the end.
Because we can't kick.
Same reason Lleyton Hewitt wasn't as good as Rogers Federer.
Lleyton tried just as hard or harder but still won about 20 less grand slams than Fed.

But if Federer ever stepped out on court in a Grand Slam final and wasn't 100% switched on with his effort, he'd lose.


The point is, that the very good teams have both pressure and execution. Skill and talent to a large degree, you either have or you don't. Effort and intensity is something you choose to do. And if you're opponent is better than you, your only hope is to apply enough pressure to put them off their execution.


As I said earlier, I think this suggestion that our coaching panel tells the players every week 'just go out and try really hard' is off the mark. I'd imagine like every other coaching panel in the league ever, they're pushing their players to bring mad intensity every week, for 4 quarters until it gets ingrained in their physche that it's just a given. Like Hawthorn and Sydney - and now the Dogs. In addition to that, they'd be also working very hard on their execution - however I think that the reason we consistently fail in this area, is that we have a list mainly made up of B-Grade footballers.

[Johnny Member]

As much as I cringe if I hear this at work (usually means they want to increase my workload), there is truth in it and its true for footy games too.

There is dumb effort and smart effort. How clever is your gameplan in channelling players energies into effectiveness on the field. Hawks were the master of this. Clarksons clever zoning (they wouldn't neccesarily chase their opponent across the field but let another zone pick them up) and ability to the keep the footy let them save their energies and they could ramp things up when they really needed it playing breath-taking burst football.

You can't play full on all the time. You need some down time to let the lactic acid drain away and get your breath back and compose yourself. Yes you can use the bench for that but can also do it on the field by keeping the ball and making the oppo chase to wear them down. You can control the tempo to suit yourself.

Its like war - you don't throw all your troops at the enemy at once even if you think you are stronger than them. You have to sustain the effort with supply lines and rotation of troops and strategic thinking to attack certain spots at certain times as the war could go on for years. Win the war (the game), not just the battle (one or two quarters)

I worry our problems with stopping oppo momentum is because players get exhausted from so much pressuring and harassing that we just fall in a hole. Our inability to keep the footy means we do a lot of turnovers and have to chase tail and pressure to get it back. WE had to work so damn hard in that first qtr against Melbourne the players looked completely exhausted. We one the first quarter battle, but used up a lot of troops.

You can't ask for super human effort every week. A clever, multi-faceted onfield system and cultivating players with good disposal gives you more options and a fall back game if you hit flat spots - which all teams will. It gives you sustainability over a game, the year, into finals which stretches players fitness and over multiple seasons. It's a marathon not a sprint as they say and you can wear yourself sprinting all the time. Save some of your energies for when you do need to sprint.

I think there's a misinterpretation of what 'pressure' really means though, when the club talks about it.


Pressure means that the opposition should be under heat when disposing of the ball. Allowing anyone to use the ball without being under pressure, perceived or real, is football suicide.

Even Keiran Jack s*** himself and coughed up the ball late on Friday against the Dogs - such is their constant pressure and harassment on the ball carrier.



You have to have the ball to use it well. And you won't get it unless (1) you win contests, or (2) the opposition give it to you.

You don't win contests without fierce effort and intensity. And the opposition won't give you the ball unless you put them under pressure. The good teams won't anyway.



The problem I thin kis in terms of what people interpret as 'pressure', is that teams like Hawthorn and the Dogs do it so well that they don't even appear to be doing it. BigMart's comment about Hawthorn not being a pressure side almost made me fall off my chair!

They're the kings of it.

Their 'pressure' and physicality in the contest is what gets them the ball. And their pressure acts is what makes the opposition give them the ball back. Clarkson has been spruiking this for years.


If we had Hodge, Burgoyne etc. down back, but they never got the ball in their hands due to the opposition midfield being unpressured whenever they brought the ball forward, it wouldn't matter. But give the opposition the ball and have Shiel, Puopolo and Rioli breathing down their neck every time they have the ball, and it's a different story.


You need both. Strategy and skill without intensity and pressure, is basically what is referred to as 'downhill skiers'. They look awesome until the heat is turned up and they can't cope.

[Johnny Member]

On topic....


'Brutal game' makes it tough for youngsters - http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-04-02/bra ... -round-two