Do you think we are moving into top up mode?

[Bluthy]

Trading our top pick out last year to get Carlisle and this years 2nd pick for Freeman. Lots of talk that we will be heavy players in trading this year. I have worries we are getting ahead of ourselves with Richo desperate to play finals. The temptation is to trade in ready made big body players who can fill holes in your list and instantly give you that push up the ladder . But do they have the quality to get us a flag? I think our last flag tilt didn't quite get there because of our bottom six players eg. players who missed goals in the grannie from 15m out and guys would couldn't keep the footy with their disposal under pressure.

I would have preferred we keep hitting the draft with our top picks which lets us get real cream players but also would make our rise a bit slower and let us get more of the cream.

[Saint_J]

i bloody hope not as we are yet to have a set core.

[skeptic]

I'm going to say no because the type of players we've been after are not what constitutes top ups IMO.

We're after core players still and are looking to fill gaps

[dragit]

Topping up is when you recruit players that are coming to the end of their career to fill a hole on your list, trading for good value, quality players in their early 20's is a pretty different thing.

Do you consider Hickey, Bruce, Savage & Weller to be top-ups too?

[Bluthy]

I'm going to say no because the type of players we've been after are not what constitutes top ups IMO.

We're after core players still and are looking to fill gaps

"Core players" - what does that really mean Skep? YOu can define any player you get in as a "core player" if you want - you wouldn't get them to your club unless you thought they had a good chance to become a permanent first 22 player.

I come back to the idea of cream players - players that under the most extreme pressure such as in a grannie have the skills and decision making to use the ball well, make sure we keep the footy and make the big plays. They are hard to get - one way to get them is through the draft. We were so brave in trading out good players to push us down to get another wooden spoon and give us pole position in the draft for a few years. But I worry we are not making the most of that brave decision. WE are bouncing up too quick and now are looking at trades to bolster our squad. We are growing our depth but I don't know if we have the quality in the 22 we need.

[SaintPav]

Second or third year players are not top ups.

Club needs to show ingenuity in getting talent into the club given the way the AFL has structured the competition. The club will need to make trade offs, which it already has (eg trading for future dp) and there won't be a lot of margin for error but their approach probably has the potential for significant upside risk.

[Bluthy]

Topping up is when you recruit players that are coming to the end of their career to fill a hole on your list, trading for good value, quality players in their early 20's is a pretty different thing.

Do you consider Hickey, Bruce, Savage & Weller to be top-ups too?

I wouldn't define top-up so narrowly as that Drag - although it is a blurry area. I call Carlisle a top up because he cost us our top pick to get a mid-twenties ready to go player which I think Richo very much wanted to push for finals this year. Marchbank and Steele would come in pretty ready to go and give instant improvement. That is no doubt a big part of their appeal to us.

And no club ever thinks they are bringing in a "top up" player - to them they are always bringing in quality. You think Richmond thought Yarran was a "top up" player? That is the cloudiness that the pursuit of flag can lead to short-term thinking. Its a real trap that so many clubs have fallen into - the concept of "filling holes" instead of getting cream or "best available" and working out where they all go later.

I think what has been niggling at the back of Richo's mind is the idea that he could have a crack at flag with the game winning Roo, one the best CHF of all time, still able to play at close to his best. I think that has influenced his thinking to really bounce up quick.

The alternative was to develop our own via the draft (taking a chance on an Alir Alir type). Its hard to get the real cream through trades unless you pay through the nose. Unless you manage to find that unpolished gem, there is always a sense of you are getting a good to very good player, but not necessarily elite. There are often reasons they struggle to break into their team.

Bruce, Save, Weller, Membrey cost us virtually nothing so we didn't sacrifice anything - they are pure bonus. Every team will have those stories although we seem to have done better than most recently. Hickey and Longer were young guys who were always going to take time to develop as big guys which is the opposite of top up.

[desertsaint]

so in essence we're voting on the definition of 'top up'.

[Bluthy]

Second or third year players are not top ups.

Club needs to show ingenuity in getting talent into the club given the way the AFL has structured the competition. The club will need to make trade offs, which it already has (eg trading for future dp) and there won't be a lot of margin for error but their approach probably has the potential for significant upside risk.

Why didn't we stay down the ladder further Pav with more experimentation this year? That was a way of getting access to elite talent at a cheap cost (initially), in a way that they bond with other guys who are at their first club and feel a sense of "we're on a mission from god". That was a huge advantage we had from our bold decision to trade out good players. But its like we lost our nerve to see that through fully and have done it a bit half-baked. Now we seem desperate to trade talent in with the realisation that we don't have enough when you compare to GWS, GC, Melbourne jesus even the swans with their academy giving them the rising star this year and plenty of others cream players.

I see us as giving away our big advantage at early draft picks too early. Lets hope we can pull of some recruiting coups

[Bluthy]

so in essence we're voting on the definition of 'top up'.

Hence "not sure" I realise its a blurry area. But we certainly seem to have shifted our focus from the draft to the trade table. Is that the right thing or is it trading real gold that will take time to polish for sparkling fools gold that entrances us immediately

[Trev from the Bush]

Second or third year players are not top ups.

Club needs to show ingenuity in getting talent into the club given the way the AFL has structured the competition. The club will need to make trade offs, which it already has (eg trading for future dp) and there won't be a lot of margin for error but their approach probably has the potential for significant upside risk.

Why didn't we stay down the ladder further Pav with more experimentation this year? That was a way of getting access to elite talent at a cheap cost (initially), in a way that they bond with other guys who are at their first club and feel a sense of "we're on a mission from god". That was a huge advantage we had from our bold decision to trade out good players. But its like we lost our nerve to see that through fully and have done it a bit half-baked. Now we seem desperate to trade talent in with the realisation that we don't have enough when you compare to GWS, GC, Melbourne jesus even the swans with their academy giving them the rising star this year and plenty of others cream players.

I see us as giving away our big advantage at early draft picks too early. Lets hope we can pull of some recruiting coups

I have this weird theory that the StKilda Football Club plays every game with an intention of being as competitive as possible. It the only thing that sustains belief in its players, its supporters, its sponsors and the AFL. Sometimes, Bluthy, as the team did 12 times this year, it will upset your expectations and WIN a game!

Football is abut winning Bluthy, not mindless what ifs you seem to be obsessed with,

[Bluthy]

Second or third year players are not top ups.

Club needs to show ingenuity in getting talent into the club given the way the AFL has structured the competition. The club will need to make trade offs, which it already has (eg trading for future dp) and there won't be a lot of margin for error but their approach probably has the potential for significant upside risk.

Why didn't we stay down the ladder further Pav with more experimentation this year? That was a way of getting access to elite talent at a cheap cost (initially), in a way that they bond with other guys who are at their first club and feel a sense of "we're on a mission from god". That was a huge advantage we had from our bold decision to trade out good players. But its like we lost our nerve to see that through fully and have done it a bit half-baked. Now we seem desperate to trade talent in with the realisation that we don't have enough when you compare to GWS, GC, Melbourne jesus even the swans with their academy giving them the rising star this year and plenty of others cream players.

I see us as giving away our big advantage at early draft picks too early. Lets hope we can pull of some recruiting coups

I have this weird theory that the StKilda Football Club plays every game with an intention of being as competitive as possible. It the only thing that sustains belief in its players, its supporters, its sponsors and the AFL. Sometimes, Bluthy, as the team did 12 times this year, it will upset your expectations and WIN a game!

Football is abut winning Bluthy, not mindless what ifs you seem to be obsessed with,

And some people are incredibly short-term thinkers - problem with the world in general - very simplistic thinkers who can't think a day ahead. Lets hope the leaders at our club aren't.

[samuraisaint]

I've selected the no option because Carlisle was 24 and a player we desperately need for team balance and our spine. Without him we would struggle to hold our current position of the best team out of the finals next year, when we don't play a VFL team twice, a team widely speculated to be the wooden spooner twice, and a decade long cellar dweller twice at Etihad, plus the Lions at Etihad in the final round. That is a 7 game walkup start we had in 2016. Next year we will probably play West Coast twice, Adelaide or North twice, depending on who loses today, and Port Adelaide twice. That is an almost certain 6 losses walkup start in 2017.
Recruiting Carlisle is no top up, and neither is Freeman, BUT if we go after O Meara then I think we enter the realm of desperation and delusion. One speculative trade is okay, but I think a Steele or a Marchbank is the more sensible option. Failing landing them, the best kid available with our number 1 pick is fine too. To be honest I was rapt when I heard that we were cooling on O Meara.

[BigMart]

And you never should!!!

[Bluthy]

And you never should!!!

Well Lake to Hawks worked alright.

[BigMart]

He's an AA defender. Top up, or good recruiting?? Bring A Grade talent in... Is not topping up. Topping up is foregoing young talent for mature players instead
Like Taylor Hunt at Richmond or what Brisbane did in 09

Wonder what the dogs got out of the lake deal?

[saintsRrising]

Trading our top pick out last year to get Carlisle and this years 2nd pick for Freeman..

WHAT IS A TOP-UP?

Personally I would not regard that either pick above as a "top ups". So it may depend on what your definition of a top up is.

Top up mode to me would be about trying to win a flag either next year or the season after and being ok that players that come in may only be good for that window. ie North currently, or the Saints under Lyon.

I don't believe that is what the Saints are doing. IMO they are rebuilding the list over time and after having done this now over several seasons it is now becoming more difficult to improve the list as we now need good specific types of players rather than just good (or best available players).

I mean say we keep pick 10 in the draft and the best available player at that pick is a key forward or a ruckman. Is it really going to assist us in securing such a player? Or is it better to use pick 10 to trade for the type of player than we really do need?

THE DRAFTING GAME HAS CHANGED.

Secondly free agency has changed the game. Once upon a time a club would draft a player and he was their for his whole career, and he he left the club could trade for value. FA has changed all this and so the period where a club "owns" a player is less. So one could make an argument that you are better gaining a player when they are slightly older so that the club will "won" all of their prime years.

Players that are drafted are also today more inclined to not sign new contracts once their first contract has lapsed.

WHERE IS THE BEST VALUE

There is always talent in the draft. But equally there is a lot of talent at other AFL clubs. If one can "buy" that talent at a lower cost that in the draft then why would you not? as raised earlier this also allows one to get the type of player you need. Unless you have pick 1 you are guessing who that player may be. Yes the draftee may be one out of the box, but equally he may a bust too.

Now that we actually have a capable recruiting team we are much better position to assess talent both in the draft and what we can get from other clubs. Then that would need to be assessed against the cost of acquisition. The club will not know the cost of acquisition unless it tests the market and so it needs to talk with possible players at other clubs, and to those clubs about what deal could be struck.

ie it may be that if we could say swap pick 10 for Steele and Caleb that that is judged as a "buy". But that if the best deal was pick 10 for Steele, that the better buy is keeping pick 10 in the draft.

It may well be too that the best proposition may well be trading in more draft picks. This is more likely to be so early in a rebuild when any good (prepositionally that is) player will do.


In summary, in drafting today I think clubs need to look at who the best players available are, and not just who the best available players in the draft are.

[BigMart]

As AR has said already

They need to fit the age demographic to be considered

[skeptic]

A player like Carlisle or a Lachie Weller (if we got him) are not what I would define as top ups

North Melbourne is an example of a team that topped up

[shrodes]

I can assure you we're not in the process of topping up. We're not ready yet. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that by the end of next year our ladder position is not that much different. But they'll be progress. It's all about getting it all right at the right time.

[Bluthy]

I can assure you we're not in the process of topping up. We're not ready yet. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that by the end of next year our ladder position is not that much different. But they'll be progress. It's all about getting it all right at the right time.

Of course Tony is going to say that. He will trot out the club line and clubs never think they are topping up - that is the trap. They think they are getting a bargain to fill a hole or do a specific job. But on grand final day you don't want "jobbers" as under the heat they tend to turn it over.

Not sure what the "right at the right time" thing means. It's about the quality you have in your list, your system and how much experience they have. You want to open that premiership window up for as long as you can to give yourself multiple chances and let the percentages work for you - you keep knocking on the door eventually it will open.

[BigMart]

Would we take back NDS

That would suggest top up

[Bluthy]

Would we take back NDS

That would suggest top up

Its not just the more mature players that are top-ups. Swans discard Schneider was brought in to fill the small forward hole and missed a goal from 15m out in the grannie. Lack of quality bites you in the ass in the end.

[maverick]

Would we take back NDS

That would suggest top up

Its not just the more mature players that are top-ups. Swans discard Schneider was brought in to fill the small forward hole and missed a goal from 15m out in the grannie. Lack of quality bites you in the ass in the end.

Really?
The same bloke destroyed us in a prelim 3 years earlier.
The average age thing is a complete fallacy.
In 2008 the Hawks had 3 players in their premiership side that never played again, 8 years on they are still going. How's that for topping up. When you hit the beginnings of the window top up, you never know when the opportunity arises.

[Junior]

Would we take back NDS
S
That would suggest top up

Its not just the more mature players that are top-ups. Swans discard Schneider was brought in to fill the small forward hole and missed a goal from 15m out in the grannie. Lack of quality bites you in the ass in the end.

If you go by missing goals 15 metres out then Rooey must be crap.

You are clutching at straws, is it mature players or lack of quality, make up your mind.

If we are addressing areas of identified weaknesses then there is no problem recruiting from other clubs.

You cannot address every whole in your list through the draft we need a combination of draft and trading so long as we are not recruiting players who have a year or two left.

The only player I have heard us linked with that is at the older end of the scale is Eric Mackenzie, hardly smells of just topping up.