A harsh truth about the Saints best backline

[skeptic]

With all this talk about Carlise etc, I got a thinking.

When was the last time we had an excellent back 6... As in all good players in their own right but more specifically, each player excelled in the role the quality that they were supposed to bring to the floor.

Come to think of it... I think the last time we got it completely right was all the way back in 2004:
At a glance you had a back 6 of Penny, Hudghton, Fisher, Jones (Austin), Voss and Black.

Penny was ur gorilla, Hudghton was number 2, a young Sam Fisher played on the third tall and tried to expose their lack of run. Brett Voss was third man up for the chop outs and Jones/Black ran the ball out for us and damaged the opponent on the rebound.

You then look at our 09 season. It was a something to the extent of - Dawson, Blake, Baker, Fisher, Clarke, Gilbert
Dawson was a key back that wasn't as suited to the big gorilla forwards. Baker was the small stopper with little offensive capability. Blake took third tall and acted as more of a stopper. Fisher played CHB but key position defence was never his strength so he continued to try n hurt opposition with run whilst the tea defence attempts to cover his deficiencies. Then you had Clarke n Gilbert both as potential third men up providing run... But both had at least some weaknesses in their run and carry game.

2010 - in comes Gwilt for the injured Clarke... Great disposal and run, not as good at actual defence.

And obviously as our stocks have dropped, the quality has dipped in recent years and we're starting the recovery now.

It seems, we've developed a tendency to go for players that kind of have most qualities but don't necessarily excell in their key roles.
Now, an aging Fisher that can't provide as much fun as he once could, plays more as our main key back
Gilbert having returned from a long run with injuries, plays taller than is desirable and we rely on him for run and carry which isn't great.
Dempster... Well: solid as always
Geary is a stopper with disposal that is a liability
Savage is an average defender and decent but not elite offensive player.
Roberton... Yep I think we all agree he is where it's at

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

I think the main message here from me is I think we need to absolutely go after this Ess guy. I think we need to be more specific about the skill set we want a particular player to bring into the team, and the role we want them to play. We've got the makings of a good forward line n some promising rucks... We need serious a serious injection of classy into the backs and mids.

Let's get it done

[saynta]

Good sensible post.

[Dis Believer]

I actually agree with you on Delaney. I think he has been criminally under-rated. Last season when our backline was under absolute siege most weeks, he did a great job of stopping the opposition gorilla forward, mostly under much less than ideal circumstances. May not have a great offensive side to his game, but certainly has done what was asked of him.

[spert]

An interesting read there- one thing also vitally important to any backline is the defensive work done up the field, especially by the midfield. In the case of this season's backline, they were continually under the pump with the ball coming straight back in far too frequently, and it was easy to see why with the poor defensive work of our midfield, and too many playing far too wide of their immediate opponents up the field- this contributed to the outside runners killing us, as Richo has been on about since last season. Getting back to players like Delaney, I think he has a place as a strong gritty defender, and if we snagged Carlise, then we potentially add to the strength and marking power of the backline- the more offensive and line-breaking work should be picked up by the flankers and mids dropping into the backline, and the leave the gorilla work to those who do it best. Although Fisher has been a great intercept marking type of backman, he is getting to the end of his career and has lost a little pace and recovery and I just hope he has an injury-free 2016.

[the dome]

Carlisle being described as a good mark does inspire the imagination a bit.
Carlisle, Goddard, Delaney may work well together and be solid enough going fwd. I remember Matt Maguire was a good intercept mark until ruined by major bone breaks in his legs. I'd love to see more intercept marks as a regular feature in the Saints' defence. I could warm to Carlisle I think but that pick 5 has to be off the table.
Fingers are crossed.

[bergholt]

Come to think of it... I think the last time we got it completely right was all the way back in 2004:
At a glance you had a back 6 of Penny, Hudghton, Fisher, Jones (Austin), Voss and Black.

Penny was ur gorilla, Hudghton was number 2, a young Sam Fisher played on the third tall and tried to expose their lack of run. Brett Voss was third man up for the chop outs and Jones/Black ran the ball out for us and damaged the opponent on the rebound.

Nah, Fisher barely played in 2004. It was his first year and Matty Ferguson was ahead of him, at least to start with. And Heath Black played on the wing. Really it was Penny, Hudghton, Maguire, Voss, Baker, Jones. Also contributing Blake and Schwarze depending on the day. I agree it was a pretty solid combo though.

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

Personally I think not but Richo seems to think so. Fair enough if he wants all his defenders to be ball-players. Delaney will never be Sergio Ramos.

To your later point about Carlisle, I'm still not sure. He's pretty good and I'd be happy to have him, but overpaying (in draft picks) will just cripple us elsewhere. Our midfield needs serious work and without that it doesn't matter who's in defence or up forward. If we can get him for roughly our second-round pick then go for it, if our first then no.

[St Chris]

Carlisle being described as a good mark does inspire the imagination a bit.
Carlisle, Goddard, Delaney may work well together and be solid enough going fwd. I remember Matt Maguire was a good intercept mark until ruined by major bone breaks in his legs. I'd love to see more intercept marks as a regular feature in the Saints' defence. I could warm to Carlisle I think but that pick 5 has to be off the table.
Fingers are crossed.

I'm not sure Goddard and Delaney can co-exist in the same side. Both are slow, but Goddard offers more offensively. I think it would be silly to expect 22 games from Goddard in 2016, so Delaney will play now and then.

Carlisle is a different type, he's much more of a footballer, and less of a stopper.

We need another mid-sized defender to replace Fisher and Dempster, I think that's where Tom Lee might get a break?

All of a sudden Goddard, Carlisle and Lee is a pretty handy group, with the like of Newnes, Webster, Geary, Acres etc buzzing around their feet providing the drive, we're pretty well placed.

[Gordo']

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

I actually agree with you on Delaney. I think he has been criminally under-rated. Last season when our backline was under absolute siege most weeks, he did a great job of stopping the opposition gorilla forward, mostly under much less than ideal circumstances. May not have a great offensive side to his game, but certainly has done what was asked of him.

i agree with these two dudes re delaney. ffs delaney doesn't have to provide offense!
we have plenty of other blokes with big mouths to do flowering that!


hey skeptic and true believer, though your names sound more like cool band names, i was wondering if you two dudes were musos???

[prwilkinson]

Franky Peckett was in that 2004 side. Can barely remember chips getting a game in 2004. Mind you, Luke Penny barely played much either... he was always 2 weeks away.

The way the game's played now I often think that Aussie Jones would be one of the best players in the comp with his kicking skills.

[GrumpyOne]

Good thread this.

[skeptic]

Come to think of it... I think the last time we got it completely right was all the way back in 2004:
At a glance you had a back 6 of Penny, Hudghton, Fisher, Jones (Austin), Voss and Black.

Penny was ur gorilla, Hudghton was number 2, a young Sam Fisher played on the third tall and tried to expose their lack of run. Brett Voss was third man up for the chop outs and Jones/Black ran the ball out for us and damaged the opponent on the rebound.

Nah, Fisher barely played in 2004. It was his first year and Matty Ferguson was ahead of him, at least to start with. And Heath Black played on the wing. Really it was Penny, Hudghton, Maguire, Voss, Baker, Jones. Also contributing Blake and Schwarze depending on the day. I agree it was a sspretty solid combo though.

Yes you are correct. I was thinking of the game where Chips had a blinder vs Bulldogs... I think Kosi stepped up that game after Roo went down injured.

I mis-recalled that as 2004 but it was actually 2005

[saynta]

Come to think of it... I think the last time we got it completely right was all the way back in 2004:
At a glance you had a back 6 of Penny, Hudghton, Fisher, Jones (Austin), Voss and Black.

Penny was ur gorilla, Hudghton was number 2, a young Sam Fisher played on the third tall and tried to expose their lack of run. Brett Voss was third man up for the chop outs and Jones/Black ran the ball out for us and damaged the opponent on the rebound.

Nah, Fisher barely played in 2004. It was his first year and Matty Ferguson was ahead of him, at least to start with. And Heath Black played on the wing. Really it was Penny, Hudghton, Maguire, Voss, Baker, Jones. Also contributing Blake and Schwarze depending on the day. I agree it was a pretty solid combo though.

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

Personally I think not but Richo seems to think so. Fair enough if he wants all his defenders to be ball-players. Delaney will never be Sergio Ramos.

To your later point about Carlisle, I'm still not sure. He's pretty good and I'd be happy to have him, but overpaying (in draft picks) will just cripple us elsewhere. Our midfield needs serious work and without that it doesn't matter who's in defence or up forward. If we can get him for roughly our second-round pick then go for it, if our first then no.

He can be good, but there are some negatives to consider

1. He has never managed to play a whole season
2. He doesn't like being told by the coach where he fits the teams needs best
3. He appeasrs to sook if he isn't getting his way.
4. He has shown disloyalty to his club and his team mates
5. HE IS SLOW.
6. He has a two year suspnsion hanging over his head.


I am sure the club is aware of all of the above and won't pay overs for him.

[skeptic]

Franky Peckett was in that 2004 side. Can barely remember chips getting a game in 2004. Mind you, Luke Penny barely played much either... he was always 2 weeks away.

The way the game's played now I often think that Aussie Jones would be one of the best players in the comp with his kicking skills.

Peckett was a highly underrated player in his final years. I always thought he was close to our biggest loss prior to the 2005 prelim vs Sydney... Was exactly the player we needed for the occasion

[saynta]

Franky Peckett was in that 2004 side. Can barely remember chips getting a game in 2004. Mind you, Luke Penny barely played much either... he was always 2 weeks away.

The way the game's played now I often think that Aussie Jones would be one of the best players in the comp with his kicking skills.

Peckett was a highly underrated player in his final years. I always thought he was close to our biggest loss prior to the 2005 prelim vs Sydney... Was exactly the player we needed for the occasion

I saw him play some outstanding games. One in particular comes to mind. It was against Sydney and he and cuz torn them a new one.

[skeptic]

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

I actually agree with you on Delaney. I think he has been criminally under-rated. Last season when our backline was under absolute siege most weeks, he did a great job of stopping the opposition gorilla forward, mostly under much less than ideal circumstances. May not have a great offensive side to his game, but certainly has done what was asked of him.

i agree with these two dudes re delaney. ffs delaney doesn't have to provide offense!
we have plenty of other blokes with big mouths to do flowering that!


hey skeptic and true believer, though your names sound more like cool band names, i was wondering if you two dudes were musos???

Learning the guitar..l dont have a gift for it unfortunetly

[saynta]

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

I actually agree with you on Delaney. I think he has been criminally under-rated. Last season when our backline was under absolute siege most weeks, he did a great job of stopping the opposition gorilla forward, mostly under much less than ideal circumstances. May not have a great offensive side to his game, but certainly has done what was asked of him.

i agree with these two dudes re delaney. ffs delaney doesn't have to provide offense!
we have plenty of other blokes with big mouths to do flowering that!


hey skeptic and true believer, though your names sound more like cool band names, i was wondering if you two dudes were musos???

My son's a musso. a drummers, but i hear you are not usually a drummer fan.

[supersaints]

Personally I think Max Hudghton was a physically stronger player then Penny and often took on the biggest forward,Max took all comers before the penny dropped. ( corny I know) I think Max was only 1 cm shorter than Luke, but they did make a good duo. We could do with a mobile marking back man particularly when Fish is cooked.
Good post though...

[White Winmar]

Great thread, tinged with sadness. It reminds me how good the list was in 2004-5. As well as that defence we had a forward line consisting of Hamill, Roo, Milne, Gehrig and Kosi, amongst others. How on earth didn't we win a flag? My son is also a drummer. As the old joke goes, "What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians? A drummer! Boom Tish! Literally.

[citywest]

Carlisle would be perfect for us but the most I would give the Bombers is this years and next years 3rd round pick. There is no way in hell we should give either of our first or second picks.

[Dis Believer]

I wonder if perhaps we underrate the value of Delaney. He is a good stopper but has zero offensive capability... Does he need too? I wonder.

I actually agree with you on Delaney. I think he has been criminally under-rated. Last season when our backline was under absolute siege most weeks, he did a great job of stopping the opposition gorilla forward, mostly under much less than ideal circumstances. May not have a great offensive side to his game, but certainly has done what was asked of him.

i agree with these two dudes re delaney. ffs delaney doesn't have to provide offense!
we have plenty of other blokes with big mouths to do flowering that!


hey skeptic and true believer, though your names sound more like cool band names, i was wondering if you two dudes were musos???

As a matter of fact yes, a sub-standard guitarist. Actually just back from a recording session about half an hour ago.......

[BackFromUSA]

Was Delaney injured when we played Geelong? He would have been damn handy on Hawkins.

[Enrico_Misso]

Good thread and amazingly hasn't been hi-jacked!

Agree with comments on Delaney being much under-rated.
I remember reading that in 2014 he reduced his opponent to below average stats in almost every game.
That is what you need particularly on monsters like Cloke and Hawkins.

But also agree that against sides without a big key forward Goddard is a better option as he can also be a play maker.

[skeptic]

I wonder though Enrico, let me play you a scenario.

We get Carlise.

Back 6 of the future...

Webster, Delaney, Geary/Savage/Wright
Goddard, Carlise, Roberton

Delaney and Carlise take the big guys
Goddard takes the third tall, plays third man up and drifts down the ground
Roberton and Webster provide the some run
Geary/Savage/Webster combo depending on the scenario provide the extra run or stopping power we need per the situation

Is that the best backline we've had in over a decade?

[Devilhead]

Points AGAINST over the last 20 years

1996 - 297.251.2033 - 12th
1997 - 272.286.1918 - 8th
1998 - 300.304.2104 - 13th
1999 - 297.239.2021 - 11th
2000 - 391.285.2631 - 19th
2001 - 389.308.2642 - Worst 20th
2002 - 334.267.2271 - 17th
2003 - 321.261.2187 - 16th
2004 - 283.211.1909 - 7th
2005 - 268.198.1806 - 5th
2006 - 250.252.1752 - 4th
2007 - 282.249.1941 - 10th
2008 - 278.255.1923 - 9th
2009 - 206.175.1411 - Best 1st
2010 - 231.205.1591 - 2nd Best
2011 - 238.249.1677 - 3rd
2012 - 276.247.1903 - 6th
2013 - 308.272.2120 - 14th
2014 - 363.258.2436 - 18th
2015 - 319.248.2162 - 15th

Lots of factors to take into account

- Dominant Midfield
- Solid Back Line
- Combination of both
- Game Plans / Coaching

Most important thing is that this years figures show that we are trending in the right direction again ..... hopefully ..... fingers crossed

[Harves Man]

Personally I think Max Hudghton was a physically stronger player then Penny and often took on the biggest forward,Max took all comers before the penny dropped. ( corny I know) I think Max was only 1 cm shorter than Luke, but they did make a good duo. We could do with a mobile marking back man particularly when Fish is cooked.
Good post though...

Wow, 2 great gems there! Also I agree with your sentiment - although I loved Luke Penny as a player, Maxy did look a bit stronger against the big forwards. Both great players.