Is Pelchen as good as we think

[dragit]

As I've been warming to the idea of BJ going and us getting picks 12 & 13 in a strong draft, I thought it might be good to see exactly what Pelchen has done in the past with early picks, and it isn't as good as we might think…

He appears to be better at striking deals than he is at picking guns in the first round of the draft that is for sure.

He re-joined the Hawks in 2005, here are some of his early pick & trade work…

2005
pick 18 gained trading out Hay
3 Ellis
6 Dowler
14 Birchall
18 Bailey
22 Muston

2006
pick 33 gained via trading out Everitt
6 Thorp
24 Renouf

2007
12 Rioli

2008
16 Shoenmakers

2009
25 & 41 traded for Gibson & 69
McGlynn & Kennedy traded for 39, 46 & 70
16 & 42 traded for Williams, 24 & 33
9 traded for Burgoyne

2010
27 & 71 traded for Hale & 52
19 I Smith

Lots of high profile trades and a genuine trend of giving away high picks for good mature players, particularly to fill holes in the list. I think we can expect some pretty serious trading this year… but I am a little concerned with his history of first round draft selections… as he looks to batting pretty poorly in this area. 05 & 06 pretty awful, hopefully he has learnt some lessons here…

[White Winmar]

Yes.

[dragit]

Yes.

sweet

[SaintWodonga]

Give him a couple of years, so far so good.

[paddy]

I think he will do well, and you do make a good point re some of his early pick maladies.... however i am sure every team would be similar...

He has done good things so far, but he is only human and doesn't have a chrystal ball.

[Con Gorozidis]

Too early to call.

You make some good points. On the surface - it appears he stuffed up with Kennedy - but maybe Kennedy was in a mental rut at the Hawks with the whole family thing weighing on his shoulders - so he never would have been as good if he stayed and he needed a fresh start in Sydney.

Pelchen's obsession with 'Beaus' is alarming.

[jimmy_slats]

he still has beverage and a few others that usally help out with the draft id say he will be more involved with the trading rather than draft choices although he will have a plan of what is needed

[QuestionOfAccuracy]

I'm not sure how Pelchen stuffed up departure of Kennedy?

Kennedy wanted to leave. He knew there were limited opportunities for him at the hawks, plus Syd could offer guaranteed playing time, more money and more security.

I never got the impression that Pelchen was a "recruiting" genius, but more of a guy with know-how on list management and what sort of balance a list needs (age-wise etc) in order to compete for the flag.

[shmic_s]

he still has beverage and a few others that usally help out with the draft id say he will be more involved with the trading rather than draft choices although he will have a plan of what is needed

Indeed, he has a different role with the Saints than what he had at the Hawks.

Think he was the list manager at Hawks, a position held by Ameet Bains at the Saints.
IMO Pelchen makes the final decisions going off the information being fed to him by the coaches, recruiters and list manager.

Elshaug still the recruiting manager with Beverage and Paul Collins recruiting advisors.

[St Ick]

More misses than hits in that list. I think where he did well was with the likes of Young, Savage, Hale, Suckling and those types.

[mad saint guy]

I'm not too concerned about some of his draft flops. Muston and Dowler were hugely rated juniors with injury concerns, very similar to Selwood - some pay off and some don't. Bailey has talent but struggles to get on the park, Schoenmakers is slowly improving, Ellis is ok and Birchall would be getting a regular gig at most clubs. Thorp was a huge failure but he would have gone top 10 anyway, he was very highly rated. Renouf has played some reasonable footy but has stalled, may still come good once he reaches his prime. Obviously Rioli was a brilliant pick.

The theme with Pelchen's recruiting is to get the best natural talent available at that pick. He has taken risks with injury-prone players, most of which have not paid off. He has taken risks on players with questionable attitudes and some have worked, some haven't. He has also snared plenty of good players late in the draft and as rookies. Generally his trading is brilliant as well.

He has made some mistakes, but he's still got a much better track record over anyone at St Kilda from 2003-2009.

[Con Gorozidis]

I never buy in to the super-genius (or super idiot) theory. Having a good team is what counts. And with him Elshaugh and Bainsey I think we are in good hands relative to where we were 5 years ago (One bloke and a clip-board). So whilst Im not certain we will do well - I think we are well placed to do well.

[clarky449]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

[Cairnsman]

Wait 3-5 years and then make your judgement, Like SW he hasn't been in the job long enough to sink or swim. A couple of recruits this year look like they could go on the plus board for Pelchen but even those recruits have still got a way to go before they are judged as successes.

The end of next season will give a better insight into the 2011 recruits, Pelchen and SW.

[MC Gusto]

Yes

[Dr Spaceman]

Don't know.

But I'm certainly looking forward to finding out.

Either way, this part of the season is going to be quite exciting over the next few years.

[dragit]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

As opposed to yourself, where don't need you to leave before we can all agree that you have no idea.

[Dr Spaceman]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

Clearly you are upset with some people’s comments regarding our previous coach. But those peoples views are unlikely to change no matter how many times the topic is brought up.

Me? I much prefer to focus on folk who are currently at our club and who are ultimately responsible for our future rather than those folk who are no longer there.

[Sick Nal Danto]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

Exactly what I was thinking

Also I think he could only start trading in 05, because the hawks had already finished building their spine

Prior to 05 they had already picked up Hodge,Lewis, Mitchell, Sewell, Buddy and Roughy, most with high draft picks

[Animal Enclosure]

Here's a summary of how the 2008 Premiership side was built- Gary Buckenara having more to do with drafting decisions that Pelchen.

-------------------------------
From - http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/ ... fault.aspx

But it wasn't until 1999 when the club's list really started to take shape under then recruiting manager John Turnbull (1996-03).

A highly-underrated and astute talent identifier, Turnbull (now a recruiter with Melbourne) and his team were instrumental in securing almost half of this year's grand final side.

Trent Croad, Chance Bateman, Mark Williams, Robert Campbell, Luke Hodge, Rick Ladson, Campbell Brown, Sam Mitchell, Michael Osborne and Brad Sewell were all claimed by Turnbull.

In 2004, the start of the Alastair Clarkson era, four-time Hawthorn premiership player Gary Buckenara took over as recruiting manager.

Buckenara's first drafting year was a beauty, landing Jarryd Roughead, Lance Franklin, Jordan Lewis and Clinton Young in 2005. Grand final emergencies Tom Murphy and Simon Taylor were also claimed.

Hawthorn took its recruiting resources to another level in 2005 when Chris Pelchen returned to the club, after a successful management/recruiting period with Port Adelaide. He was instilled as player personnel and strategy manager, overseeing recruiting and list management. Pelchen's recruiting model has been pivotal to the club's success.

Pelchen and Buckenara oversaw the acquisition of Xavier Ellis, Grant Birchall, Stephen Gilham, grand final emergency Travis Tuck (a father/son selection) and the experienced Brent Guerra in 2005. Brent Renouf was chosen in 2006.

Last year, 1990 Collingwood premiership player Graham Wright was added to Hawthorn's recruiting ranks.

Pelchen remained in his role, as Wright and Buckenara became joint recruiting managers looking after designated regions of Australia. Buckenara became the west coast recruiting manager and Wright the east coast.

This group added Cyril Rioli to its ranks last year, with Clarkson instrumental in reigniting the career of Port Adelaide premiership player Stuart Dew.

Hawthorn has also had the likes of assistants Greg Boxall, Steve Barker, Peter Ryan, Gary Smart, Barry Clarke, Paul Whaley and Bob Simpson play important roles throughout the Turnbull-Buckenara-Pelchen era.

These recruiting eras have now given Hawthorn a great opportunity to claim its 10th VFL/AFL flag.

HOW THE 2008 HAWTHORN LIST WAS BUILT

1991
Shane Crawford – AFL Draft (No.13)

1999
Tim Clarke – AFL Draft (No.33)
Chance Bateman – AFL Draft (No.48)

2000
Mark Williams – AFL Draft (No.43)
Robert Campbell – AFL Rookie Draft (No.27) – promoted to senior list 2001

2001
Luke Hodge – AFL Draft (No.1)
Rick Ladson – AFL Draft (No.16)
Campbell Brown – AFL Draft (No.32)
Sam Mitchell – AFL Draft (No.36)

2002
Tim Boyle – AFL Draft (No.51)
Brad Sewell – AFL Rookie Draft (No.7) – promoted to senior list 2003
* Michael Osborne – AFL Rookie Draft (No.23) – promoted to senior list 2003

2003
* Trent Croad – Exchange period (traded by Fremantle)
Danny Jacobs – Exchange period (traded by Essendon)
Zac Dawson – AFL Draft (No.41)

2004
Jarryd Roughead – AFL Draft (No.2)
Lance Franklin – AFL Draft (No.5)
Jordan Lewis – AFL Draft (No.7)
Tom Murphy – AFL Draft (No.21)
Simon Taylor – AFL Draft (No.53)
Clinton Young – AFL Rookie Draft (No.18) – promoted to senior list 2005

2005
Travis Tuck – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.38)
Xavier Ellis – AFL Draft (No.3)
Beau Dowler – AFL Draft (No.6)
Grant Birchall – AFL Draft (No.14)
Max Bailey – AFL Draft (No.18)
Beau Muston – AFL Draft (No.22)
Brent Guerra – AFL Pre-Season Draft (No.3)
Luke McEntee – AFL Rookie Draft (No.3) – promoted to senior list 2007
Stephen Gilham – AFL Rookie Draft (No.34) – promoted to senior list 2006
Ben McGlynn – AFL Rookie Draft (No.55) – promoted to senior list 2006

2006
Josh Kennedy – Father/Son selection, AFL Draft (No.40)
Mitch Thorp – AFL Draft (No.6)
Brent Renouf – AFL Draft (No.24)
Jarryd Morton – AFL Draft (No.33)
Garry Moss – AFL Draft (No.56)
Matthew Suckling – AFL Rookie Draft (No.22)

2007
Cyril Rioli – AFL Draft (No.12)
Brendan Whitecross – AFL Draft (No.29)
Stuart Dew – AFL Draft (No.45)
Hugh Sandilands – AFL Rookie Draft (No.11)
Tim Walsh – AFL Rookie Draft (No.27)
Alex Grima – AFL Rookie Draft (No.42)
Cameron Stokes – AFL Rookie Draft (No 54)

[clarky449]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

As opposed to yourself, where don't need you to leave before we can all agree that you have no idea.

Im laughing, really funny...

[battye]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

Yeah it's funny isn't it. People used to sing the praises of John Beveridge when he was in charge of recruiting, now they say that 2002-03 onwards was a write-off.

I guess the benefit of hindsight comes into play a bit

[saintsRrising]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

Yeah it's funny isn't it. People used to sing the praises of John Beveridge when he was in charge of recruiting, now they say that 2002-03 onwards was a write-off.

I guess the benefit of hindsight comes into play a bit

With trades, if it is for ready to go players, you will know pretty well straight away.

But with kids it can take several years.

Anyway you want to cut and dice it, when the better clubs became a lot more rigorous and scientific in their selections of kids in the "naughties", we stayed in the era of "gut-feel" recruiting and have paid the price for it.

[bobmurray]

He is good until he leaves the cub, then he has no idea.

Yeah it's funny isn't it. People used to sing the praises of John Beveridge when he was in charge of recruiting, now they say that 2002-03 onwards was a write-off.

I guess the benefit of hindsight comes into play a bit

I don't think everyone sang his praises, especially after he developed this appetite for finding a smokey, he lost me when he drafted Howard....

he was good at finding plodders with poor skills, had it down to a fine art....

Good Saints man though....

[saintbob]

As I've been warming to the idea of BJ going and us getting picks 12 & 13 in a strong draft, I thought it might be good to see exactly what Pelchen has done in the past with early picks, and it isn't as good as we might think…

He appears to be better at striking deals than he is at picking guns in the first round of the draft that is for sure.

He re-joined the Hawks in 2005, here are some of his early pick & trade work…

2005
pick 18 gained trading out Hay
3 Ellis
6 Dowler
14 Birchall
18 Bailey
22 Muston

2006
pick 33 gained via trading out Everitt
6 Thorp
24 Renouf

2007
12 Rioli

2008
16 Shoenmakers

2009
25 & 41 traded for Gibson & 69
McGlynn & Kennedy traded for 39, 46 & 70
16 & 42 traded for Williams, 24 & 33
9 traded for Burgoyne

2010
27 & 71 traded for Hale & 52
19 I Smith

Lots of high profile trades and a genuine trend of giving away high picks for good mature players, particularly to fill holes in the list. I think we can expect some pretty serious trading this year… but I am a little concerned with his history of first round draft selections… as he looks to batting pretty poorly in this area. 05 & 06 pretty awful, hopefully he has learnt some lessons here…

Look I'd be more than happy to have;

Ellis
Bailey
Birchall
Smith
Hale
Burgoyne
Roili

On the list at the Saints!!!