Effort there...skill not..where to from here?

[Teflon]

Tried hard. Constantly turned the ball over and were seriously shagged by soft, inept umpiring decisions in front of Cats goals (how many goals from frees for them...I counted 4....to our zip?...umps need an overhaul IMO).

How do we honestly get better skills into this side? in a hurry so we can come again while our so-called "super stars" have time?

To me we have to replace Gram, Baker, Demspter, Clarke et al with players who can kick. I havent included Gilbert, Ray, Peake, Jones etc because reality is we cant replace them all at once and still be viable. Not all the above players played bad tonight.....but we are handballing so much because none of these players can hit up a target with any surety...none want to "take the shot" so they decide for the easy option and handball to someone....usually who is under pressure.

Ledger, Lynch have to come in. Up fwd Sipposs and Johnson need a run. Walsh must surely get a run soon??

Im absolutely unsure what to do about seasoned "big game flops" in Milne/Schneider....just deplorable tonight and Roo wasnt any better.

Can we honestly have a geuine shot in 2012?.....Im not so sure tbh......I think our skill levelis so far off the mark its funny.

[Enrico_Misso]

We have to
practise
practise
practise
practise
our field kicking.

So many times we did well to win posession

BUT
then just kicked it
- straight to an opponent.
- Or to no-one.
- Or to 2 on 1 (against us) contest
- Or to a 3 on 1
- Or out on the full

I'd train them for 3 hours every day with kicking drills.

[Winmar]

We had a lot of the ball but our kicking (and handballing at times) was just abysmal. So many opportunities wasted. How has it turned to crap so quickly? I suppose confidence comes into it.

[Jacks Back]

I couldn't believe how woeful we were skill wise tonight while being crucified by the men in peuce but, if you think about it, we were still in the game for most of the time and, with a bit better efficiency, could of even won. I don't know why the skills have dropped off so much.

[clarky449]

They should already have the skill level required for AFL football

[mad saint guy]

What amazes me most is that Ross finally seemed to have accepted that the current group of 'role players' isn't up to it and was giving the kids a go, yet tonight we see EVERY one of them bar McQualter back in the side.

Gram, Gamble and Gilbert in no way deserved their spots tonight. Playing Baker, Dempster and Jones in the same side is just pointless and Raph Clarke is the worst possible option for the sub on the St Kilda list.

I think the coaching staff need to make hard, tough decisons on who is part of the future and who is not.

IMO

Gone: Gram (delist), Gamble (delist), Gilbert (trade), Gardiner (retire), Baker (retire), Polo (delist), Blake (retire), Cahill (delist)

Retain for backup: Kosi, Jones, Dempster, Clarke, Simpkin, Archer, Geary

Get games into: Ledger, Walsh, Lynch, Stanley, Siposs, Smith, Johnson

2012 team (from what we currently have)

B: Gwilt, Dawson, Lynch
HB: Goddard, Walsh, Fisher
C: Dal Santo, Hayes, Ledger
HF: Schneider, Riewoldt, Peake
F: Milne, Stanley, Siposs

Foll: McEvoy, Montagna, Steven
Int: Ray, Armitage, Cripps, Smith

Shows we need to recruit a FF and a small defender. It would be fantastic if Stanley or Johnson could become that forward, but it may be a bit hopeful.

[bobmurray]

if Ross is fair dinkum he'll trim some spuds from the list at seasons end....

he can't trim them all....we'd be threadbare if he did

[SainterK]

Boring answer Tef but 'it's above the shoulders'

Well for some of our guys anyway, not sure guys like Gram, Gilbert...have ever been super users of the ball.

[bigcarl]

Many of those players were good enough to take us to consecutive GFs and only luck away from a flag, so I'm not sure our skills are as deplorable as were on show tonight.

IMO our problem is mostly between the ears and we need a string of confidence-building wins at Etihad to get a bit of momentum up.

That said, I'm all for bringing the kids through if they warrant selection.

I would have played Johnson or Walsh tonight, but Kosi came in. He actually did okay and was far from our worst.

The frustrating thing to me was the contrast between Geelong's quick and direct movement of the ball (often by foot) and our hesitant and uncertain efforts.

They really back their forwards to win one on one contests and, with the ball coming in quickly, often they do.

Looks like a few of ours are too afraid to take a risk for fear of ballsing it up, so they offload to the nearest St Kilda player ... often one under extreme pressure ... like it is a hot potato.

Anyway, the season isn't over and hopefully we can beat up a few teams at Etihad, get some mojo up, and get on a bit or a roll. I'd love to see us sneak into the finals and take a scalp or two, but that may be just a daydream.

[saint66au]

Part of the reason we handball so much is we dont run. ever. Watch Geelong, when they get the ball in defensive 50 they have players screaming into space, options everywhere

Breaks your heart when we worked so hard to get a stoppage clearance in the midfield, player with the ball looks up and sees...noone, so he handpasses it to the guy 2m away from him, invariably under the pump. So it goes on until the resultant pressure kick into 50 is picked off by Taylor or Scarlett

The worst I saw was Schneider in the 2nd quarter. Under virtually no pressure, 40 from goal, instead of swinging onto his left and having a shot, a goal he would have eaten for breaky against Freo, he spins around, and kicks nearly at right angles to the goals, looking for Milne (?) hard up against the boundary. Shanks the kick and it goes out of bounds. FFS even if he'd hit him lace out..the set shot was in a far worse position than Scheider was originally

[One Eyed Saint]

On the assumption that the coaching staff know today what players they want to trade/delist at year end, at some point in time we need to start putting games into those younger players who are our future. The reality is the quicker we do this the quicker these kids will develop.

There is really no point at all playing Gram, Clarke and co (if they are on this list) if there is no plan for them to be at St Kilda next year.

By playing players in the team with poor skills and attitude all that we are doing is infecting the rest of the team and are slowing dropping the standards across the team.

Due to the bye at Sandy, most of our younger players have had a few weeks off which should freshen them up. With 11 games to go until season's end I would rather go on a rollercoaster ride with these kids (some ups and downs) versus Groundhog Day every week with the group we have today...

Armo and Jack have been great inclusions to our team but we simply need to rejuvenate what has become a stagnate team.

[bobmurray]

Fair dinkum...i think it'll take until round 25 until people realise we cant make the finals

[Teflon]

Part of the reason we handball so much is we dont run. ever. Watch Geelong, when they get the ball in defensive 50 they have players screaming into space, options everywhere

Breaks your heart when we worked so hard to get a stoppage clearance in the midfield, player with the ball looks up and sees...noone, so he handpasses it to the guy 2m away from him, invariably under the pump. So it goes on until the resultant pressure kick into 50 is picked off by Taylor or Scarlett

The worst I saw was Schneider in the 2nd quarter. Under virtually no pressure, 40 from goal, instead of swinging onto his left and having a shot, a goal he would have eaten for breaky against Freo, he spins around, and kicks nearly at right angles to the goals, looking for Milne (?) hard up against the boundary. Shanks the kick and it goes out of bounds. FFS even if he'd hit him lace out..the set shot was in a far worse position than Scheider was originally

Great post -totally agree.

I also think they go the handball cause they simply arent up to it foot skills wise.

Bolded bit drove me nust tonight.

We just dont take the game on.

[noreason41]

Part of the reason we handball so much is we dont run. ever. Watch Geelong, when they get the ball in defensive 50 they have players screaming into space, options everywhere

I've noticed this the last 2 weeks especially, against the Bulldogs it was absolutely abhorrent. We get the ball in the defensive 50, then seem to accept that we can't do anything about the zone, kick it to a contest and hope for the best.
I pointed it out one point during the game in the first 10min of the 2nd quarter, we got a turnover in our d50, and started running forward, but when Goddard had it on the wing i counted 9 players still walking in our defensive 50 (Schneids was the one that stood out). We're so stagnant.

Breaks your heart when we worked so hard to get a stoppage clearance in the midfield, player with the ball looks up and sees...noone, so he handpasses it to the guy 2m away from him, invariably under the pump. So it goes on until the resultant pressure kick into 50 is picked off by Taylor or Scarlett

The worst I saw was Schneider in the 2nd quarter. Under virtually no pressure, 40 from goal, instead of swinging onto his left and having a shot, a goal he would have eaten for breaky against Freo, he spins around, and kicks nearly at right angles to the goals, looking for Milne (?) hard up against the boundary. Shanks the kick and it goes out of bounds. FFS even if he'd hit him lace out..the set shot was in a far worse position than Scheider was originally

Pointed this out in another thread. He was literally 40m out on about a 60 degree angle, and kicked to Milne who was running right into the pocket on his wrong side.
Why on Earth he didn't have a shot i will never understand.

[Teflon]

Against Freo our mids took the shot and it paid dividends.

Tonight we looked for impossible passes against the boundary.

Dumb football.

[evertonfc]

Why can't we kick properly?

Seriously, it's not a trick question.

Anyone?

[karnaby]

Why can't we kick properly?

Seriously, it's not a trick question.

Anyone?

+ a lot!

I understand that we'll get some poor disposal when someone is under pressure, but when someone is running free and still kicks straight to the opposition, I think that is unforgivable. Ray & Gram both do this a lot and virtually all of our players are capable of doing it once or twice any given week.

This, & failing to kick enough 'easy' goals is destroying us.

[ralphsmith]

The kick and pray brigade.

Gram
Gilbert
Clarke
Steven
Armitage
Dempster
Jones

These players have match losing kicking skills. It is painful to watch these players kick the ball to opponents or to poorly kick it to leading stkilda players such as roo.

[saintspremiers]

Fair dinkum...i think it'll take until round 25 until people realise we cant make the finals

Yeah, and how we match up well with the Cats. I find that funny.

Maybe in a circus tent we would but not on the field.

After the traditional 2nd qtr rout we finally got our defensive structures right in the third term, only to blow it all by pathetic skill and decision making errors.

[White Winmar]

Spot on Teflon. Too many who simply butcher the ball. At least the 4 kids we drafted last year were all considered elite kicks. RL seems determined to persist with the older brigade, many of whom have always been questionable in the kicking department. If you can't pin point your kicks in the modern game you will never find your way through "zones" and "presses" and you will get slaughtered on the rebound. That is what is happening to us on a consistent basis.

It's one of the reasons I questioned the drafting of Dean Polo. Richmond let him go because he didn't fit in with their, "Character and kicking", recruiting and development policy. The Tigers have gone from last to first in kicking efficiency in the past two years and at last they appear to be getting somewhere. We just added another hard trier who can't kick, to a list that already contained plenty of his type.

[noob]

Baker 2 kicks, Dawson 1 kick, Dempster 2 kicks.. 3 of our 6/7 backline players had 5 kicks for the whole game.. geelong had 54 inside 50s so it was there enough.
That's not acceptable in this form of game. All the good sides have literally or their players taking the game on or attacking style of footy. Those 3 don't have that attacking game.
These days players should have both offensive and defensive qualities.

[saint58]

Tried hard. Constantly turned the ball over and were seriously shagged by soft, inept umpiring decisions in front of Cats goals (how many goals from frees for them...I counted 4....to our zip?...umps need an overhaul IMO).

How do we honestly get better skills into this side? in a hurry so we can come again while our so-called "super stars" have time?

To me we have to replace Gram, Baker, Demspter, Clarke et al with players who can kick. I havent included Gilbert, Ray, Peake, Jones etc because reality is we cant replace them all at once and still be viable. Not all the above players played bad tonight.....but we are handballing so much because none of these players can hit up a target with any surety...none want to "take the shot" so they decide for the easy option and handball to someone....usually who is under pressure.

Ledger, Lynch have to come in. Up fwd Sipposs and Johnson need a run. Walsh must surely get a run soon??

Im absolutely unsure what to do about seasoned "big game flops" in Milne/Schneider....just deplorable tonight and Roo wasnt any better.

Can we honestly have a geuine shot in 2012?.....Im not so sure tbh......I think our skill levelis so far off the mark its funny.

Would love to see Ledger,Lynch,Sippos,Johnson,Walsh,Archer but it wont happen,even though they have been named best for sandy a number of weeks on end that doesnt matter.

The artical in Saturdays herald sun about the saints dropping the youth policy from now on so expect more of the same.

The only changes for our next game are some young guys Gardy,Blake,Joey so thats not looking good for the future with the lack of youth and run in the side.

[kalsaint]

Spot on Teflon. Too many who simply butcher the ball. At least the 4 kids we drafted last year were all considered elite kicks. RL seems determined to persist with the older brigade, many of whom have always been questionable in the kicking department. If you can't pin point your kicks in the modern game you will never find your way through "zones" and "presses" and you will get slaughtered on the rebound. That is what is happening to us on a consistent basis.

It's one of the reasons I questioned the drafting of Dean Polo. Richmond let him go because he didn't fit in with their, "Character and kicking", recruiting and development policy. The Tigers have gone from last to first in kicking efficiency in the past two years and at last they appear to be getting somewhere. We just added another hard trier who can't kick, to a list that already contained plenty of his type.

I think the kids need a good break to provide solid value in the second half of the season. They will get 2 weeks off with the bye and will be far better off for this. Good thinking by Ross in my opinion given that Geelong are bigger bodied and the Saints could have completely ran out of legs with younger players.

On the poor kicking I cannot understand why they kick so short and lofty high balls. This enables the opposition to close down the run and ultimately does not enable quick long kicks to the next option unless the team talk is strong. Saints looked good when the ball was moved quickly. When the kicks were short ball movement was pressured and poor and scores didnt eventuate much.

[SinCitySaint]

Most of our guys can kick when not under pressure.
In 2009 we pressured the opposition relentlessly, more than any other team, and as an result our skills looked superior to just about every other team. This year every team is working on the hustle and hassle approach so the sides whose skills stand out are the ones who can execute under pressure. We cannot. It is not our skill that is the problem but our ability to respond to the pressure.

[Johnny Member]

Most of our guys can kick when not under pressure.
In 2009 we pressured the opposition relentlessly, more than any other team, and as an result our skills looked superior to just about every other team. This year every team is working on the hustle and hassle approach so the sides whose skills stand out are the ones who can execute under pressure. We cannot. It is not our skill that is the problem but our ability to respond to the pressure.

I don't think our skills have ever looked good.