Ross Lyon is a good coach BUT... (Part 2)

[skeptic]

Last week I started a thread criticising the continued selection of a number of players and thought I'd follow it up again this week and expand on a few points which I didn't think were covered..

Also, rather than start multiple threads, I thought I'd address a few of the more common themes emerging from the draw to Richmond and a few other bits and pieces.

For anyone interested, this was the original thread
http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=68467

The players I criticised:
Andrew McQualter
Farren Ray
Jason Gram
Clinton Jones

+ a slight reference to Sean Dempster

I've been particularly critical of this group of players for quite a while now... especially Mini and Ray (Schneider and Gardiner at times too actually) but it has absolutely astounded me how much support they get. Ray and Gardiner especially are players that do so little so often but get heaps and heaps of acclaim for the few right things they do a game.

1 point at a time though.

Andrew McQualter: Was finally and thankfully dropped... about 15 weeks too late. To think of the number of games he took away from Armitage, Steven and Smith last season for nothing. Up to him to find his feet in the 2s now and come back better.
The scary part is that I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him back in for Lenny this week.

Farren Ray: Another simply soft effort. Was not there when the pressure is on and has never been. I get frustrated coz I feel like I'm the only one who sees it... does very little against good opposition with 1-2 exceptions and is never a good player in a losing team. Butter boy. Not good enough and hasn't been for a long time. We've done his development no favors by continously picking an under performing player.

It's one thing to give someone a go for 3-4 games but if they're not having a positive impact... swing the axe. Farren has potential & can be a good depth player but he's not performing well enough to be a definete starting player.

Clinton Jones: Actually did ok VS Richmond I thought. One of the only players on the list that can get the ball and is willing to run his full measure and kick the thing forward aas hard and fast as he can.
There is no role in the midfield for a player that is purely a stopper... you need to be able to rebound the other way. He should be in and out of the team depending on the qulaity of his disposal which has been better than over the last 1/2 a season.

Jason Gram
Again didn't think he was too bad. I look at him however and think to myself his best is behind him and he is as good as he will ever get. I think a brave move but the right move would be to cut him out of calculations altogether.
Give his spot to the most promising kid and if they don't perform... give it to the one after. I guess with Lenny out however, we can't completely do that now.

Sean Dempster: Woeful on every level... above all his disposal by foot. At 27, what can we expect from him? Call it what it is... he's finished and should not play again.

Now onto Ross Lyon

Has this team just learned about the advantage rule for the first time. Seriously, what is with that? Every time we play on we %&( it up in seconds and turn the ball over. Half the time when we play on it's at the most inappropriate, put yourself under pressure moments.
Further to this, why would you play on to advantage then kick the ball short to a contest?

Why do we do that anyway? The number of turnovers that result from us kicking short to contests is mind boggling. And the opposition cut through us like butter because they kick long with fast ball movement and back their team mates to win 2 on 2.
Your more likely to kick a goal from a 2 on 2 contest then a 8 on 8 contest. Even if you lose it, the damage is likely to be less because you have numbers up the field.

Why are we so afraid to take the game on?

I won't comment about the skill level of this team other than to say thatour kicking for goal and kicking to targets really cost us again tonight. We do look to be more attacking last night though so that's a positive.

What the hell is with the structure of this team? This is the second week in a row where IMO the game was lost at the selection table.
Against Geelong we were missing a tall in the forward line, had one too many role playing backmen and a running midfielder (maybe 2) short.

You semi rectified this by ditching Mini for Archer which straightened us up and helped us up forward but were again were smashed in the middle whilst Blake, Dempster and Baker were all just kind of there... not really contributing.
We only need 1 of Dempster and Baker in the team and IMO the nod goes to Baker who at least does occasional positive things and less blunders.
Really should have a Smith, Cripps pr even a Lynch to free up either Raph/Goodard/Gilbert into the midfield.

And what on earth happened to that next forward??? OK so Gilbert was being groomed as a HFF but felt he couldn't cut it there. I can live with that but how about a contingency plan... your fluffing around with a Blake, Fisher, Goddard, Gilbert all doing stints down there.
For goodness sake make a decision. Your not giving us a forward and ripping the backline apart.
Leave Sam Fisher down back
Leave Jason Blake down back
Leave Sam Gilbert down back
Pick one of Goddard, Johnson, Lynch, Stanley, Archer as that tall to medium sized forward you want and persevere with it for a while.
Personally I think Goddard is the man myself.

Our forward line set up is so unco. And it's actually causing us some serious problems...

Riewoldt is getting battered pillar to post

Gamble is looking like the worst player ever when in fact he's just a new player in a team that has no forward system. He clearly just has no idea where to run and I for one can't blame him. 9/10 we just bomb it long to Roo or kick it short to a contest once the opposition have numbers back.
Very unfairly maligned this week IMO.
Still has done more than McQualter has done in a year.

Blake forward WTF... he sucks at that. Your just exposing his weaknesses even more so.

Here's my team for next week

Baker, Dawson, Gwilt
Gilbert, Fisher, Clarke
Dal Santo, Armitage, Gram
Schneider, Riewoldt, Steven
Gamble, Archer, Milne
McEvoy, Montagna, Goddard

Int Blake, Jones, Smith
sub Lynch

In
Steven, Smith, Lynch

Out
Dempster, Peake, Ray

Gram and Jones survive by the skin of their teeth only because they are both a) fast, b) willing to take the game on

With Hayes going down we need a new big bodied player in the center so my plan for getting Goddard up forward is at least temporarily on hold. I do however see Goddard resting up forward whilst Steven/Schneider have a run in the middle.

Ray needs to go and find form.

Peake is an interesting case. People forget exactly how much he improved over the course of last season. He was one of our best in the pre-lim. His two abysmal grandfinals really cost us and cost him his reputation.
He goes back to Sandy and has to work on his disposal and his confidence... the guy has potential and is worth persevering with.

End of rant

Would love some constructive feedback on this post as it has kept me awake during my night shift

[meher baba]

Some of these criticisms are valid (in fact, most have some validity IMO), but the overall "sky is falling" tone is way over the to.

Fact is, we made the last two GFs and almost won both of them with McQualter, CJ, Dempster, Gram, Gardiner and Ray all appearing regularly in our side, not to mention the uber-whipping boy Kosi, thr new "comeback kid" whipping boy Jason Blake, and Steve Baker, an emerging dark horse in the whipping boy stakes.

I wonder how Raph is taking all this.

Once upon a time he could walk down the street with
his head held low, knowing he was the king of the dartboard: the man in the entire AFL world most likely to be abused by his own supporters. Now, even the most vitriolic Saints fans have him as a required player. Alas! How fickle are the emotions of the public!!

Look, here is my take on it all.

McQualter: was an AFL-standard player throughout 2009, looked to have turned a corner, but dropped away in 2010 and hasn't started 2011 well (except the NAB cup game against Gerlong). I don't know what the problem is with him (niggling injuries? complacency?) if he could regain his 2009 form we'd all want him back? Why does Lyon keep selecting Mini? Probably because, like some of us, he remembers what Mini is capable of doing and wants to recapture it. We all saw flashes of it again in the NAB Cup. If Mini could get it back regularly, he'd be a damn sight more useful right now than Steven, Cripps, Ledger and co.

Gram: almost exactly the same story as McQualter, although his best is a lot better than Mini's best The day the coach and club gives up on a player as good as Grsm is the day we might as well start tanking for draft picks.

CJ: I was never much of a fan of CJ's. He's the sort of player who runs around everywhere and tries hard but doesn't deliver a lot because he is largely devoid of skills. He had a superior streak of form for a while late 2008 through 2009) before opposition coaches worked out how fully to exploit his weaknesses. At that time, many of the more excitable posters on here thought he might be on the way to becoming the next Lenny or something. Now that he hasn't fulfilled that pipedream, they've turned on him. That's not fair: he's still in our top 25-28 players IMO.

Dempster: similar story to CJ. A superb athlete with great powers of endurance. Used to have a penetrating long kick, but his knee injury in 2008 seems to have taken that attribute from him. Without it, he is an even more limited player than before, as he seems to be almost incapable of getting his hands on the ball: he is relatively tall and isn't flexible enough to pick it up off the ground, but he can't mark overhead for s@#t and normally punches it away from contests. Some on here used to over rate him enormously (especially during 2008-09 when he was injured, when people on here used to wax lyrically about his fine attacking skills. Seriously.) But the more the fans see of him, the less they like of him. Lyon loves him and has presumably been a major contributor to him having appeared in 5 GFs FFS! Don't expect to see him playing for the Zebras any time soon: I have no doubts Lyon sees him as a required player and he's the coach, not you or me,

Ray: has all the attributes to be a first rate player, but isn't one and will never be one. It's a pretty common story with high draft pick players who get traded by their club after having played 50 or so AFL games. It's why you don't really want to recruit lots of those players (unless, of course. you are Matthew Drain). Ray is a symptom of our poor recruiting in recent years. He didn't really fill a hole in our list that we needed to fill, but he denied young players (particularly Armo, I suspect) a potential spot in the top team through which he could develop. But, then, it's also true that Armo didn't do enough to seize that spot. It's a fine balance, but I still think Ray is possibly one more recycled player than we need ATM. But you couldn't possibly drop him, so we can expect to see him for a while.

Gardiner: recruited as a highly-skilled and experienced ruckmen with injury and off-field problems. He's kept the off-field problems in check and, when his injuries allow him to play, he's shown he's still one of the best ruckmen going around: easily the best we've got. So I don't know what your problem with him could be.

[Cro]

Fact is, we made the last two GFs and almost won both of them with McQualter, CJ, Dempster, Gram, Gardiner and Ray all appearing regularly in our side, not to mention the uber-whipping boy Kosi, thr new "comeback kid" whipping boy Jason Blake, and Steve Baker, an emerging dark horse in the whipping boy stakes.
I eonder how Raph is taking all this.

We did, doesn't mean they're playing as well now as they did when we made those grand finals tho'.

[widereceiver]

Much of the OP is true, the five in the gun deserve scrutiny.

I wonder what we would be saying of the Pois' lesser lights if Swan, Pendlebury, Shaw, Dawes, Didak et al had the starts to the season that Montagna, Goddard, Dal Santo, Gilbert, Gram and Riewoldt have had. Apologies to Roo here, because I believe the way our forward line is structured makes it impossible for him to have the impact he can have on a game. Does Berbakov have the foggiest idea about setting up a forward line?

All teams have fringe players. When we are confident and playing well, they have risen to the occasion, the last two GFs if memory serves, without being quite good enough to win. When our stars are out of form, the lesser lights are horribly exposed.

Our vulnerability lies in the centre. "No Hayes, no Saints" has been true for the last few years. We can't count on the over-rated 11s and 26s to fill in the gap. I am not sure whether Armitage and Steven are the answer but they are worth a crack.

Now that our most vital player is gone, it's up to our "star" players to lift. I wish us all good luck with that.

[plugger66]

Much of the OP is true, the five in the gun deserve scrutiny.

I wonder what we would be saying of the Pois' lesser lights if Swan, Pendlebury, Shaw, Dawes, Didak et al had the starts to the season that Montagna, Goddard, Dal Santo, Gilbert, Gram and Riewoldt have had. Apologies to Roo here, because I believe the way our forward line is structured makes it impossible for him to have the impact he can have on a game. Does Berbakov have the foggiest idea about setting up a forward line?

All teams have fringe players. When we are confident and playing well, they have risen to the occasion, the last two GFs if memory serves, without being quite good enough to win. When our stars are out of form, the lesser lights are horribly exposed.

Our vulnerability lies in the centre. "No Hayes, no Saints" has been true for the last few years. We can't count on the over-rated 11s and 26s to fill in the gap. I am not sure whether Armitage and Steven are the answer but they are worth a crack.

Now that our most vital player is gone, it's up to our "star" players to lift. I wish us all good luck with that.

Must have missed Dals poor start to the year.

[spert]

RL will need to try a bit of risk-taking this season as his team structures and play, though effective for a couple of seasons is starting to be sorted by the opposition..predictability will bite us on the bum. Quite a few of our experienced players have to pull their fingers out, including Roo, as if your opponent can read the play and get hands on the ball, so can you, no excuse.

[Mr Magic]

From my perspective (one game on tv and one live) we're attempting to play (not too well yet) a different game style to last year.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are attempting to play on as often as possible, rather than holding on to the footy, and we're definitely taking the 'long option' when kicking into our forward line rather than trying to pinpoint passes to an open forward.

Unfortunately I must be seeing something that's not actually occuring because, apart from SainterK and a few others on here, many keep telling me that our gamestyle from last year is now no good and is the reason we're now shyte?

Maybe the solution is as simple is that we're not yet fully 'up to speed' with this 'apparent new gamestyle' that I and a few others can see but many cannot?

[bergsone]

From my perspective (one game on tv and one live) we're attempting to play (not too well yet) a different game style to last year.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are attempting to play on as often as possible, rather than holding on to the footy, and we're definitely taking the 'long option' when kicking into our forward line rather than trying to pinpoint passes to an open forward.

Unfortunately I must be seeing something that's not actually occuring because, apart from SainterK and a few others on here, many keep telling me that our gamestyle from last year is now no good and is the reason we're now shyte?

Maybe the solution is as simple is that we're not yet fully 'up to speed' with this 'apparent new gamestyle' that I and a few others can see but many cannot?

Or maybe some of the players are not capable of adapting to a new game style .IF that is the case some new blood may be required

[Mr Magic]

From my perspective (one game on tv and one live) we're attempting to play (not too well yet) a different game style to last year.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are attempting to play on as often as possible, rather than holding on to the footy, and we're definitely taking the 'long option' when kicking into our forward line rather than trying to pinpoint passes to an open forward.

Unfortunately I must be seeing something that's not actually occuring because, apart from SainterK and a few others on here, many keep telling me that our gamestyle from last year is now no good and is the reason we're now shyte?

Maybe the solution is as simple is that we're not yet fully 'up to speed' with this 'apparent new gamestyle' that I and a few others can see but many cannot?

Or maybe some of the players are not capable of adapting to a new game style .IF that is the case some new blood may be required

Maybe, but that is a differnet argument to the one being widely propogated on here in thread after thread.

[seano1]

its ok to bomb it long to the forward line as long as you leave players there to mark it ....where is milne when roo drops or has the ball knock down from him ? is he a crumbing forward or not?
Also is our coach coaching to save his job by always playing the same old players who seem to be like the aussie cricket team all out of form

[plugger66]

its ok to bomb it long to the forward line as long as you leave players there to mark it ....where is milne when roo drops or has the ball knock down from him ? is he a crumbing forward or not?
Also is our coach coaching to save his job by always playing the same old players who seem to be like the aussie cricket team all out of form

Milne had 11 shots at goal so that suggests he was there. As for coaching to save his job, I am pretty sure 3 games ago that side got us into 2 GF's which in itself suggests he is safe whoever plays.

[defacto]

it amazes me how people still have baker in the side. he's f****** 30 going on 31 for crying out loud. its his last f****** season. move him on already.
$#$@#@$#$#@$#@@

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Teflon]

it amazes me how people still have baker in the side. he's f****** 30 going on 31 for crying out loud. its his last f****** season. move him on already.
$#$@#@$#$#@$#@@

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Id keep Baker over Dempster.

We dont have heaps of small fwd stoppers and Baker still does this role ok and puts his head over the footy.

Gram..well......."outside runner" he is.

[bobmurray]

From my perspective (one game on tv and one live) we're attempting to play (not too well yet) a different game style to last year.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are attempting to play on as often as possible, rather than holding on to the footy, and we're definitely taking the 'long option' when kicking into our forward line rather than trying to pinpoint passes to an open forward.

Unfortunately I must be seeing something that's not actually occuring because, apart from SainterK and a few others on here, many keep telling me that our gamestyle from last year is now no good and is the reason we're now shyte?

Maybe the solution is as simple is that we're not yet fully 'up to speed' with this 'apparent new gamestyle' that I and a few others can see but many cannot?

Maybe when the new gamestyle is locked in the Saints will convert better,
more goals will come from our mids,we wont lose so many clearances and
opposition sides won't look so quick when they play against StKilda.

Oh, and our defenders won't look so panicked when competing one out with an opponent .

Lets all sit back and watch this new gamestyle evolve and wait for it to work...there are only 20 weeks left so Ross better get on his bike......

[desertsaint]

real hard first half of the season - if there is a new game plan that somehow involves smarter movement into the 50 i have yet to see it. i see something different to the last two years - halfhearted input from many players, woeful kicking skills all over the park (well, no difference there) inability to win the contested ball, inability to stick a tackle, etc
if we are trying something so new why have such a late start to preseason?
why risk going in underdone and underprepared.
we are in real danger of going 2-1-8 at the halfway mark. if so then regardless of how much we improve after that, it's all over.

[Mr Magic]

From my perspective (one game on tv and one live) we're attempting to play (not too well yet) a different game style to last year.

There is no doubt in my mind that we are attempting to play on as often as possible, rather than holding on to the footy, and we're definitely taking the 'long option' when kicking into our forward line rather than trying to pinpoint passes to an open forward.

Unfortunately I must be seeing something that's not actually occuring because, apart from SainterK and a few others on here, many keep telling me that our gamestyle from last year is now no good and is the reason we're now shyte?

Maybe the solution is as simple is that we're not yet fully 'up to speed' with this 'apparent new gamestyle' that I and a few others can see but many cannot?

Maybe when the new gamestyle is locked in the Saints will convert better,
more goals will come from our mids,we wont lose so many clearances and
opposition sides won't look so quick when they play against StKilda.

Oh, and our defenders won't look so panicked when competing one out with an opponent .

Lets all sit back and watch this new gamestyle evolve and wait for it to work...there are only 20 weeks left so Ross better get on his bike......

I see what I see
and
you see what you see.

You seem to get your jollies from cvontinually knocking the team.
I prefer to be optimistic.

At least you don't post your pessimistic views as fact.

[bigred]

Andrew McQualter: Was finally and thankfully dropped... about 15 weeks too late. To think of the number of games he took away from Armitage, Steven and Smith last season for nothing. Up to him to find his feet in the 2s now and come back better.
The scary part is that I wouldn't be surprised at all to see him back in for Lenny this week.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

In 2009 McQualter was a valuable player. Defensive pressure, kicked goals and gave many goal assists.

In 2010 he was defensive, but that was about it. Poor disposal, could not get possession.

When you actually think about playing him ahead of Steven and Smith, it is just plain damaging.

[SainterK]

real hard first half of the season - if there is a new game plan that somehow involves smarter movement into the 50 i have yet to see it.

Last 7 games, inside 50's.

2011
R2 51
R1 52

2010
GF2 39
GF1 35
PF 49
QF 41
R22 34

It appears to be trending towards more attacking football, and I personally think it has more to do with the structure in the F50, than smart movement.

Watch the first quarter again from Friday night, when we had a forward line of two talls (Roo Gilbert) medium forward (Gamble) and Milne crumbing.