The shoe now being on the other foot

[iwantmeseats]

Ahhhh, 03- 06 ....did I not appreciate it while WE were the IT team enough? I dont think I did.

Carlton and Richmond supporters are so damn excited at the moment, and for good reason too as far as I can see.

Makes me smile when I hear the hype, but then I start to get a bit angry. Angry becasue I dont like the answer to the question of...


Did we make enough of those years ON or OFF the field? Sadly, the answer has to be no.

I have to say, Im probably more stroppy about the off field stuff to be honest. We did utterly nothing in terms of capitalising on the exposre in those years. Our membership has not increased, in fact its DOWN, and our so called elite facilities ...well who really knows what the hell is going on.

Honestly, we are right back in the bottom / middle of the pack now. It wouldnt take much to have us as one of the targets of the AFL gun in the coming years. Believe me, at least one club will go eventually.


This reads like Im having a bitch, but its just meant to be bit of a muse. We were right on track and s*** has just fallen apart.

On field hasnt happened and needs work, but off field really worries me.

[Solar]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

[plugger66]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

They may have some holes in the backline but their midfield is in the top 2-3 in the AFL so that can make up for an ordinary backline. I would think they are very close to being a top 4 side this year but if not this year they should be next year.

[iwantmeseats]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

[Solar]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

They may have some holes in the backline but their midfield is in the top 2-3 in the AFL so that can make up for an ordinary backline. I would think they are very close to being a top 4 side this year but if not this year they should be next year.

remind me who is in their top 2-3 midfield. Also remind me who will kick their goals if fev is held? I would put the cats, hawks and dogs midfield ahead for starters. Talk is cheap, I want to see some decient results ....

tell me how you can go top 4 with jamison and thorton as their key backs, cloke as their back up ruckman to a kid and brad fisher is their second tall....

I'm not bullish about our chances for top 4 but I have us higher then the blues for the next two years.

[casey scorp]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

We'll find out in quick time in Rounds 12 & 13 when we play Carlton & Richmond in successive matches.

We currently are having our records winning runs against Carlton (11 wins) and Richmond (10 wins).

They won't last forever - will they continue this year?

[bigcarl]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

They may have some holes in the backline but their midfield is in the top 2-3 in the AFL so that can make up for an ordinary backline. I would think they are very close to being a top 4 side this year but if not this year they should be next year.

they also have one of the best forwards in the league in fevola (also a prize d**khead). if they can develop another key forward to complement him then look out,

[Solar]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

please explain to me why carlton are far from being "hype"?

they only got to 10 wins through because they beat collingwood and essendon twice. We beat then by 40 points at 32 points. The could nt get within 10 goals of either geelong or the hawks.

They rely on fev way too much, their midfield falls away after the top 2-3 and their backline is shonky.They might sneak into the eight but win a final?? LONG way away IMO

[iwantmeseats]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

please explain to me why carlton are far from being "hype"?

they only got to 10 wins through because they beat collingwood and essendon twice. We beat then by 40 points at 32 points. The could nt get within 10 goals of either geelong or the hawks.

They rely on fev way too much, their midfield falls away after the top 2-3 and their backline is shonky.They might sneak into the eight but win a final?? LONG way away IMO

huh? Fev...equal best foward going around

Midfield, self explantory. They have more than 2 or 3 they can rotate through there!

GUN recruits who happened to have played very well the other night and showed enough that they are a good chance to be long term players.

The mid/foward combo will be enough to get them over the line in a few games and will be able to carry the backline. Its not THAT bad.
Care to pit their youngsters against ours? I dont, dont like the truth of it.

[st.byron]

Yeh they looked the goods against the Roos the other night. However, it was a NAB cup match, the Roos were awful turning it over like a hotcake and one game in the pre-season doesn't mean much. Let's see how they go against some decent opposition.

[Solar]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

please explain to me why carlton are far from being "hype"?

they only got to 10 wins through because they beat collingwood and essendon twice. We beat then by 40 points at 32 points. The could nt get within 10 goals of either geelong or the hawks.

They rely on fev way too much, their midfield falls away after the top 2-3 and their backline is shonky.They might sneak into the eight but win a final?? LONG way away IMO

huh? Fev...equal best foward going around

Midfield, self explantory. They have more than 2 or 3 they can rotate through there!

GUN recruits who happened to have played very well the other night and showed enough that they are a good chance to be long term players.

The mid/foward combo will be enough to get them over the line in a few games and will be able to carry the backline. Its not THAT bad.
Care to pit their youngsters against ours? I dont, dont like the truth of it.

so fev kicking 100 equals 10 wins.... does that mean he needs to kick 130 to get them to the finals? Their forward line falls away drastically after fev. Hell from memory betts was their next best goal kicker.

midfield? You both keep harping on this midfield, outside of judd, murphy and gibbs what do they have. carrazo is their verson of jones, gets tons of it but doesn't damage the side of a van.

I ask again, what midfield are you talking about, top 3? get out of it!

So they have a few young players, doesn't mean that they will bridge the gap. They need at least 4-6 players to stand up and improve to push into the finals.

One again 1 pre-season match from carlton and some cheap wins against lower teams at the end of last year has fuelled the hype.

I would rather us not be the hype side and actually go out there as a more mature side and get the results.....

hype, like potential is the bulls*** that means crap teams with 18 year olds get more acclaim then actual results

[sunsaint]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

please explain to me why carlton are far from being "hype"?

they only got to 10 wins through because they beat collingwood and essendon twice. We beat then by 40 points at 32 points. The could nt get within 10 goals of either geelong or the hawks.

They rely on fev way too much, their midfield falls away after the top 2-3 and their backline is shonky.They might sneak into the eight but win a final?? LONG way away IMO

you have a point about Fevola, but the same is said about us, Stop Roo and you stop the Saints. Cloke is handy up forward and we will see Kruezer spend time in front of goal. But I disagree about their onballers they manage to keep the scoreboard ticking over. And they are getting better.

[Solar]

agreed. Carlton are far from being "hype". For sure top 8, wouldnt surprise me if they make top 4.

please explain to me why carlton are far from being "hype"?

they only got to 10 wins through because they beat collingwood and essendon twice. We beat then by 40 points at 32 points. The could nt get within 10 goals of either geelong or the hawks.

They rely on fev way too much, their midfield falls away after the top 2-3 and their backline is shonky.They might sneak into the eight but win a final?? LONG way away IMO

you have a point about Fevola, but the same is said about us, Stop Roo and you stop the Saints. Cloke is handy up forward and we will see Kruezer spend time in front of goal. But I disagree about their onballers they manage to keep the scoreboard ticking over. And they are getting better.

it's strange but outside the top 3 midfielders I struggle to think of any others that look capable of making the step up? If it wasn't for judd and fevola we would have blown them away the second time we played them.

Who cares if we are too riewoldt focused, this is about the bulls*** that is
OMG carlton are coming".... it bores me. Win some games early in the year when the season is alive and they will start to look lke a finals team. Till then it's all potential, so was fiora

[Eastern]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

We'll find out in quick time in Rounds 12 & 13 when we play Carlton & Richmond in successive matches.

We currently are having our records winning runs against Carlton (11 wins) and Richmond (10 wins).

They won't last forever - will they continue this year?

Of course they'll continue. Put your house on it !!

[SainterK]

I find it odd that while Carlton held a healthy lead in the other nights NAB match, why they didn't give Fev a rest after halftime and try some other options up forward....

Oh yeah, they don't have any other options

[casey scorp]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

We'll find out in quick time in Rounds 12 & 13 when we play Carlton & Richmond in successive matches.

We currently are having our records winning runs against Carlton (11 wins) and Richmond (10 wins).

They won't last forever - will they continue this year?

Of course they'll continue. Put your house on it !!

I hope you're right - because I couldn't stand to be beaten next time (or any time) by the team that has beaten us more than any other. I want another decade or two of beating the arrogant swine.

Even if we won every game for the next 20 years we still wouldn't have won a third of the games we'd have played against them in 130 years.

[degruch]

I'd have to agree re: Carlton's 'brilliant team' being a product of hype...they haven't got the runs on the board yet. Hey, they may well make the finals this year - with the team they've got, they should have romped it in last year!

Have a looks at an early 90's Saints team with Lockett, Loewe, Winmar, Burke, Harvey, Thompson, etc, etc and tell me it doesn't have just as much fire-power and talent as Fevola, Kruezer, Judd, Gibbs, Stevens, Murphy, et al. A finals team, yeah, a GF team, no. Still, I'll sit and watch to find out.

As for Richmond, where's the improvement? Now they've got another 30+ midfielder to keep Johnston company, Riewoldt is their forward line and Richo's gonna do everything else? I can't see them getting much past 9th again, as teams like Port and Carlton should go soaring past them to replace North and Sydney in the top 8.

[the shadow]

I remember the last time there was this much hype about Carlton. Wasn't it the year they completed the unique NAB Cup Premiership - Real stuff wooden spoon double? Then it was the genius of Pagan's coaching strategies and their "growing list of young talent", that was going to lift them into the eight.

The reality is they had no depth whatsoever and a lame duck coach. Of course they've had three No.1 picks since (Strangely enough you don't hear their filthy supporters complaining about all their early draft picks, the way they did when we got a few), but the fact remains their list is very light on for depth in quality, "experienced" players. Apart from Fevola and Stevens, who are their "gun" players in the 26 + years, approx. 200 game range? None. Who are their quality mid-range players in the 22 to 25 range other than Judd? None. Even when the "Baby Bombers" of 1993 pinched the flag, they did it with the likes of Watson, Thompson, O'Donnell, Harvey, Salmon, Wallis etc. in their side.

No team has ever won a premiership without a good spread of talent across all age and experiential ranges on their list. Even the Hawks did it last year with Crawford, Dew, Guerra etc...


While the filthy cheating swine are getting excited, so am I. I've heard this from them before. Every year since 2001! I can't wait to see their faces etched with pain when they fail yet again. If early draft picks make you an eventual premiership winner, then why haven't Fremantle, the doggies, Tigers, Demons and ourselves won one in recent times? We've all had a chance through early draft picks.

The reason other sides, such as Hawthorn and Geelong, have gone past us is that they have built on their good fortune and developed a list over time, not just sought short-term solutions. I don't think the scum have recruited all that well outside the obvious N o.1 picks. I reckon they'll be the Fremantle of Victoria. Big on talk and hype, little on delivery. A brief appearance or two in the eight down the track and then, like Fremantle, back to rebuiding. You can't win a flag on the back of one champion, two good players and three potentially good kids.

As for the Tigers, I think they might be better off than the scum at the moment, but I hardly think the llikes of Geelong and Hawthorn will be quaking in their boots. Bring on rounds 12 and 13!

[plugger66]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

They may have some holes in the backline but their midfield is in the top 2-3 in the AFL so that can make up for an ordinary backline. I would think they are very close to being a top 4 side this year but if not this year they should be next year.

remind me who is in their top 2-3 midfield. Also remind me who will kick their goals if fev is held? I would put the cats, hawks and dogs midfield ahead for starters. Talk is cheap, I want to see some decient results ....

tell me how you can go top 4 with jamison and thorton as their key backs, cloke as their back up ruckman to a kid and brad fisher is their second tall....

I'm not bullish about our chances for top 4 but I have us higher then the blues for the next two years.

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

As for Cloke being there backup ruckman did you see ours when we made prelim finals.

I hope like hell I am wrong but even 2 years ago i said they had more hope of winning a flag before us and see nothing to change my mind.

[Solar]

I believe this is all media hype.

Carltons list has lots of holes in it... lets start in the backline.....

richmond is riding the hype of cousins but they either have ageing stars (richo, johnson etc.) or very young players.

Neither team is similar to geelong or stkilda circa 2004.

I laugh when people are starting to talk up carlton, if we think we are 10 goals behind the top 2 then I would hate to know how far these two teams are from the flag.

Not suggesting that we will have a successful year but the hype is just that, hype... remember where the blues finished last time they had success at this time of the year

They may have some holes in the backline but their midfield is in the top 2-3 in the AFL so that can make up for an ordinary backline. I would think they are very close to being a top 4 side this year but if not this year they should be next year.

remind me who is in their top 2-3 midfield. Also remind me who will kick their goals if fev is held? I would put the cats, hawks and dogs midfield ahead for starters. Talk is cheap, I want to see some decient results ....

tell me how you can go top 4 with jamison and thorton as their key backs, cloke as their back up ruckman to a kid and brad fisher is their second tall....

I'm not bullish about our chances for top 4 but I have us higher then the blues for the next two years.

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

As for Cloke being there backup ruckman did you see ours when we made prelim finals.

I hope like hell I am wrong but even 2 years ago i said they had more hope of winning a flag before us and see nothing to change my mind.

so your still rating them a top 3 midfield with no depth outside of judd, murphy, gibbs and stevens. Ask most blues supporters and they admit that stevens goes missing during big games. I would put half a dozen midfields ahead of carltons, hell I think our midfield stacks up well against them.

oh well we shall see

[Richter]

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

As for Cloke being there backup ruckman did you see ours when we made prelim finals.

I hope like hell I am wrong but even 2 years ago i said they had more hope of winning a flag before us and see nothing to change my mind.

Their midfield is ok. But lets compare with us. You name Judd, Stevens, Murphy and Gibbs. IMO Judd is the best, but then we have Lenny, Dal and Goddard who are better than Stevens, with Joey and Ball at least equal to the bottom two. That does not even include Gram and X Clarke. All of our mids are getting to their prime years (24-27) except Lenny. The Blues are still a couple of years away from that.

West Coast had a GREAT midfield - they had the 3 best midfielders of the game at that time. Carlton's are miles off being that. Like others, I'm not holding my breathe to see if the likes of Gibbs and Murphy make the step up.

[Sobraz]

Carlton have the same problem (but worse) that many posters on here think is our biggest weakness...

Your only as strong as your weakest link...

Carltons top shelf is good, but there bottom 4-6 players are just rubbish....

We had (have) a weaker bottom 4 also, as has been debated many times on this forum, but RL has taken serious steps in the past 24 months to improve our depth...

Carlton still have a long way to go... I am expecting to beat them more comfortably than we did last year...

[plugger66]

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

As for Cloke being there backup ruckman did you see ours when we made prelim finals.

I hope like hell I am wrong but even 2 years ago i said they had more hope of winning a flag before us and see nothing to change my mind.

Their midfield is ok. But lets compare with us. You name Judd, Stevens, Murphy and Gibbs. IMO Judd is the best, but then we have Lenny, Dal and Goddard who are better than Stevens, with Joey and Ball at least equal to the bottom two. That does not even include Gram and X Clarke. All of our mids are getting to their prime years (24-27) except Lenny. The Blues are still a couple of years away from that.

West Coast had a GREAT midfield - they had the 3 best midfielders of the game at that time. Carlton's are miles off being that. Like others, I'm not holding my breathe to see if the likes of Gibbs and Murphy make the step up.

Firstly you named BJ and Gram and I hope you are right that they make very good midfielders but they havent really even played there yet. Dal seems to play at half back for at least half of the game. X well cannot be serious. I would say our only genuine mids are Bally whose kicking is ordinary, Joey and Lenny with hopes on BJ and Gram. If you look at it that way theirs is better. Its like stats to can wright anything to make an arguement work.

And I dont think I named the WCE. Afterall I didnt say they would win the flag. They have no hope. All I said they could go close to top 4 this year but if not this year they will probably next season.

[Sobraz]

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

What a load... The midfield of Judd, Murphey and Gibbs is by far thier best... Gibbs is theonly one who is great by foot from that group... It falls away very very quickly after that... Thier second tier is just honest, and the skill level drops dramatically...

Thier highly skilled second level of Stevens and Scotland are both weak footballers who have failed when it counts over and over again....

Judd is not as good as Ablett or Bartell...

A 'great midfield' is a group of 8-12 players who can all rotate through and not miss a beat... Carlton have 3-4 players then a bunch of triers... Big difference IMO....

[plugger66]

Lets go through it then. Judd is the best midfielder in the AFL. Stevens is a very good midfeilder. Murphy is excellent and will only get better and even though some here dont rate Gibbs and that could only be hatred for Carlton, well he is going to be a star. Those last 2 have an extra year now and if either were Saints players they would be rated brownlow favourites. They also have good backups so lets face it that is an excellent midfield.

If you have a great midfield you can make up for ordinary players in other positions and even the 2 you named in the backline are young and improving.

What a load... The midfield of Judd, Murphey and Gibbs is by far thier best... Gibbs is theonly one who is great by foot from that group... It falls away very very quickly after that... Thier second tier is just honest, and the skill level drops dramatically...

Thier highly skilled second level of Stevens and Scotland are both weak footballers who have failed when it counts over and over again....

Judd is not as good as Ablett or Bartell...

A 'great midfield' is a group of 8-12 players who can all rotate through and not miss a beat... Carlton have 3-4 players then a bunch of triers... Big difference IMO....

You lose the arguement straight away by having Bartel ahead of Judd.