"Stuck In No Man's Land"

[damienc]

Opinions are like a part of our anatomy we don't like to mention in polite company.

Meaning, we've all got one.

SEN radio footy hosts Kane Cornes and Andrew Hayes gave theirs on the current state of the St Kilda football and it was not very complimentary.

Maybe no surprises there but the gist of what they had to say was:

1) We're stuck in No Man's Land
2) We won't play finals in 2022 and end up finishing just outside the eight or thereabouts. In other words a carbon copy of last year.
3) Our Midfield is too small to do any significant damage and
4) We don't have enough tall defenders.

It wasn't all doom and gloom. The hosts did say we are "always going to threaten" but in the same breath reminded us of the heavy defeats we suffered last year at the hands of Bombers, Crows and Doggies.

They also talked about how we recruited mature aged players because we thought we were in the premiership window but these guys, especially Hannebery haven't delivered. To be fair on Hannebery he is very good when he plays but hasn't played enough footy to make a difference in our fortunes.

Have they got a point overall?

A bit. I think we are stuck in "No Man's Land" but not for the reasons Cornes and Hayes believe. There is no doubt in my mind we recruited some serious talent in this year's draft. We were lucky to get them.

Some of this talent is more AFL ready than others. I am talking Owens, Windhager and NWM.

Owens and Windhager, in particular, are not small midfielders. Their size, speed and versatility will give them, and our team ,an edge we haven't had before. And I like the look of Max Heath as a true replacement for Paddy Ryder.

The question for me is will any/all play in 2022? The club isn't going to rush them and that's a good thing. But I am hoping their form for Sandy will make the selectors take notice. So, until they do we are stuck in No Man's Land waiting for them to be AFL ready.

Everyone is hoping for improvement from the Saints that we all so loyally support year upon year. But my optimism rests on the shoulders of these young guys. Yes I believe they are going to be that good.

Finals may not happen in 2022 but it won't be too long after that.

[cwrcyn]

No man's land? It's not like we haven't been busy in recent times in regards to the draft and trades. From 2012 to 2018 we were in no man's land, but I think we've progressed the list quite well since then. I think most of us on here have some doubts about our midfield, and we'll need Byrnes to continue his improvement and finally see some surge in output from Bytel.

As for our backline, I think the combination of Howard, Battle, and Wilkie is solid, and our small defenders are very good, so I'm a little bewildered by their comments.

We still haven't seen the best from Higgins, Clark, Byrnes, Bytel, King, and Connolly, and Sharman with all those players having huge scope for improvement.

I think those commentators forget what a wretched run of injuries we had last year. What a massive difference it will make if Jones, Clark, Marshall, and Gresham play close to every game.


All this talk recently of how Carlton and Freo being the big improvers, but if they're in that frame, why aren't we?

[Impatient Sainter]

They are probably right but as a club we couldnt afford to remain a bottom dweller. Unfortunately there are no quick fix to the state our list was in. We couldnt attract anyone under AR and our draft recruiting over that period had been diabolical. I havent agreed with all our trading but we simply had to improve our list with bringing in mature players.

As far as the mature agers that were brought in last year they were all just as backups, not the club thinking they were in the premiership window. What the recent trading & drafting has done has lifted internal expectations and given us a spring board to seriously challenge in coming years.

[shanegrambeau]

Said we killed it in the draft in 2020...the papers rated St Kilda no. 1 for the pick-ups.

Our mature recruits over recent years, a mixed bag..

Ryder - brilliant, beyond anyone's expectations...caveat.., going forward?
Hill - despite the abuse, he's great, a definite asset
Crouch - quite serviceable
McKernan and Hunter - fails
Hannas - embarrassing for club


No big backs..
Agreed! 100%

The Marshall plan saved Germany, and can save the Saints!

[Vortex]

It's interesting, I have been thinking about our current situation recently and formed the view we are very much like the North Melbourne side under Brad Scott. Always middle of the ladder with the occasional season where things go right and end up playing in a prelim and then the occasional season where things don't go right and end up outside the 8. But generally a playing list that's best just won't ever be good enough and definitely not good enough without a reasonable amount of luck with injuries.

Is this "no man's land" ?

[shanegrambeau]

I agree, our brethren has been the Roos and the Dogs for the most part of 2000-2022.

We are Minnows on the AFL drip but they have been more successful, despite North’s diabolical crash post-Scott.

How did the Dogs get so good? Might be worth looking at.

[cwrcyn]

It comes down to recruiting/trading......it always has. For over 10 years we had second and third rate recruiters (and coaches with dumb ideas) We got it partially right in 2017, but the real change came in 2018.

Since the end of the 2017 season we've added:

Clark
Coffield
Paton

King
Bytel
Wilkie

Byrnes
Connolly
Ryder
Howard
Hill
Butler
Jones

Higgins
Crouch
Highmore
Allison

Sharman
Heath
Wanganeen-Milera
Owens
Windhager

That's pretty much a complete overhaul of the list in 5 years. We won't see the full fruits of it until 2023 & 2024

The thing that stands out the most is that we have no superstars. Most of the better teams have at least one match-winning, unique player. That's where we fall short.

[Scollop]

That's pretty much a complete overhaul of the list in 5 years. We won't see the full fruits of it until 2023 & 2024

It might take a few more years after that too

I hope they stay the course with this current group of youngsters and I am not too concerned if we have to take 2 steps backwards in order to do a proper rebuild. I don’t think we should be trying to rush this current group.

Max King will be just 25 at the start of the 2026 season. Jack Steel will be 30 at the start of 2026 (and most elite mids seem to still be going ok at 30 years of age).

[CURLY]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

[SinCitySainter]

Said we killed it in the draft in 2020...the papers rated St Kilda no. 1 for the pick-ups.

Our mature recruits over recent years, a mixed bag..

Ryder - brilliant, beyond anyone's expectations...caveat.., going forward?
Hill - despite the abuse, he's great, a definite asset
Crouch - quite serviceable
McKernan and Hunter - fails
Hannas - embarrassing for club


No big backs..
Agreed! 100%

The Marshall plan saved Germany, and can save the Saints!

You missed a few which does change the outlook somewhat.

No big backs? Howard was brought in and he has been outstanding.
Butler has been more than serviceable, great first year quiet second.
Jones and Higgins have also been useful pick ups.

Better than a mixed bag I would humbly suggest.
Yes, McKernan, Hunter and Frawley were all huge bombs but really they were only stop gaps, so it didn't really cost us much.
Hannas has been unfortunate but the idea at the time was right just the result has been a disaster.

[Yorkeys]

Radio experts! You can't get stuck in no man's land. The choices are kill or be killed. Their use of metaphors, hyperbole..... make it up as you go along just to bait Saintsationalists.
To bite: we will kill more often than not. Need Marshall to stay fit and mids get better as a unit but with reasonable luck we are finalists.

[shanegrambeau]

Said we killed it in the draft in 2020...the papers rated St Kilda no. 1 for the pick-ups.

Our mature recruits over recent years, a mixed bag..

Ryder - brilliant, beyond anyone's expectations...caveat.., going forward?
Hill - despite the abuse, he's great, a definite asset
Crouch - quite serviceable
McKernan and Hunter - fails
Hannas - embarrassing for club


No big backs..
Agreed! 100%

The Marshall plan saved Germany, and can save the Saints!

You missed a few which does change the outlook somewhat.

No big backs? Howard was brought in and he has been outstanding.
Butler has been more than serviceable, great first year quiet second.
Jones and Higgins have also been useful pick ups.

Better than a mixed bag I would humbly suggest.
Yes, McKernan, Hunter and Frawley were all huge bombs but really they were only stop gaps, so it didn't really cost us much.
Hannas has been unfortunate but the idea at the time was right just the result has been a disaster.

Yes, the under-25s - I did miss a few, I suppose I classify Higgins, Butler were orphaned children, very young players who didn't 'make it' , and Howard and Jones were somewhat teenage miscreants. Howard was kind expelled from school for not wearing the uniform properly (refusing to be a team man) and Jones...I frankly don't know about him..I supposed he was yet to be a fully fledged mature player - on he brink of but susceptible to hammies and a bit suspect. I suppose he should be considered mature.

[Toy Saint]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

To be fair, that's a pretty average mid-field. Steele is A grade, the others may not even get a game at Melbourne or Footscray.

[desertsaint]

we're a 6 to 16 club. so a 3 in 11 chance of making finals.
whether we will comes down to belief, good coaching, form through the year, individual improvement, the fixture (abysmal), and injuries. so on one factor we're already well behind the 8 ball. i'd be very pleasantly surprised if we made the 8.

[CURLY]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

To be fair, that's a pretty average mid-field. Steele is A grade, the others may not even get a game at Melbourne or Footscray.

That’s untrue if they were on their lists theyed be playing.

[Devilhead]

We didn't look like we were in no mans land at the back end of 2020 and Melbourne didn't look like they were in no mans land at the backend of 2018 and then had 2 very average seasons but then won a Premiership off the back of an unprecedented free injury run.

Richmond got spanked by Sydney (113pts) in the last round in 2016 finishing 13th then ...... they win 3 Premierships

Most so called expert AFL pundits just throw darts and are never held accountable for their crap predictions

[D.B.Cooper]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

To be fair, that's a pretty average mid-field. Steele is A grade, the others may not even get a game at Melbourne or Footscray.

That’s untrue if they were on their lists theyed be playing.

Who out of these mids would Jones, Ross and Crouch get a game ahead of?

Treloar
Bontempelli
Dunkley
Smith B
Hunter
Macrae
Liberatore

In fact they wouldn’t even play in front of these guys who can’t get midfield time.

Playing forward & defence
Weightman
Dale
Daniel

[CURLY]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

To be fair, that's a pretty average mid-field. Steele is A grade, the others may not even get a game at Melbourne or Footscray.

That’s untrue if they were on their lists theyed be playing.

Who out of these mids would Jones, Ross and Crouch get a game ahead of?

Treloar
Bontempelli
Dunkley
Smith B
Hunter
Macrae
Liberatore

In fact they wouldn’t even play in front of these guys who can’t get midfield time.

Playing forward & defence
Weightman
Dale
Daniel

The point is if they were drafted to the WB theyed be playing. They wouldn’t trade for them now but if they were on the list theyed play.

[Impatient Sainter]

Maybe Gaggs thinks the same a shift at the top of the recruiting team!

https://twitter.com/TomBrowne7?ref_src= ... _&ref_url=

Subtle recruiting change at St Kilda. List boss James Gallagher has elevated Chris Toce to National recruiting boss. Toce now sits above Chris Liberatore, who remains on the Saints recruiting team.

[mad saint guy]

There are roughly 10 teams who could win a flag with a year of blessed run with injuries, some internal development and luck going their way. We're one of those teams. Then there are a few who could still give it a shake despite not being so lucky.

We're certainly not a powerhouse but I wouldn't say we're in no man's land.

[D.B.Cooper]

People become narrow minded when looking at midfields. I believe our midfield is a lot deeper than the common

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

That gets rolled out by the negative types.

Sinclair
Hill
Clarke
Webster
Patton

For starters are all part of the group.

Our forwards can all play mid minutes

Higgins
Butler
Gresham
Membrey

We also have a mobile ruck that gathers mid field possessions.

Steele
Jones
Ross
Crouch

To be fair, that's a pretty average mid-field. Steele is A grade, the others may not even get a game at Melbourne or Footscray.

That’s untrue if they were on their lists theyed be playing.

Who out of these mids would Jones, Ross and Crouch get a game ahead of?

Treloar
Bontempelli
Dunkley
Smith B
Hunter
Macrae
Liberatore

In fact they wouldn’t even play in front of these guys who can’t get midfield time.

Playing forward & defence
Weightman
Dale
Daniel

The point is if they were drafted to the WB theyed be playing. They wouldn’t trade for them now but if they were on the list theyed play.

I think you are missing Toy Saints point entirely.

TS suggested our midfielders outside of Steele would probably not get a game at the two teams who made the GF last season and it is a point that is hard to argue.

The hypothetical drafting scenario doesn’t make a lot of sense. Lastly I’m not sure that theyed is a word

[spert]

Our midfield work as a unit last season was poor, and one of the reasons we had those floggings and got overrun in a couple of games we should have won. Steele is great for us, but the rest of the midfield lack outright class and consistency, and have pretty ordinary defensive skills.

[Ghost Like]

I think until our fingers aren't crossed for Paddy & Hanners to get on the park we are very reliant on our kids coming on very quickly as well as our recruiters continuing their rich run of mature SA selections.

This so called "No Man's Land" is simply a harsh spotlight on the improvements or lack there of from our 25+y.o. listed players.

[Vortex]

I think until our fingers aren't crossed for Paddy & Hanners to get on the park we are very reliant on our kids coming on very quickly as well as our recruiters continuing their rich run of mature SA selections.

This so called "No Man's Land" is simply a harsh spotlight on the improvements or lack there of from our 25+y.o. listed players.

This is probably why Billings is marked hard by a segment of the fan base, we've been waiting for that 25+ y.o. bracket of players to improve enough to make us a consistent finals side since arguably 2017.

Taking us tantalising close but just not improving enough to make the grade.

[Life Long Saint]

We are a genuine contender for the 8.
Folly to think we're not.

I don't think we're a genuine contender for the top 4.
That will be between Melbourne, Western Bulldogs, Geelong, Port Adelaide, Brisbane, Richmond, and Sydney.
Top eight contenders include us, Essendon, GWS, Carlton, and Fremantle.
That leaves six teams that are not genuine contenders for a finals spot. West Coast, Hawthorn, Adelaide, Gold Coast, Collingwood, North Melbourne. West Coast are only in that group because of their injuries.

After our terrible first half of the season, we only finished a game and percentage out of the eight.
Eliminate two of those terrible losses pre bye and we make the eight.
Beat Adelaide and lose by smaller margins to Essendon, Bulldogs, Port, and Richmond and our season looks different.

Having a fit Marshall and Ryder will help immensely.
Having Gresham and Jones in the team will help.
Putting Battle back to a settled position will help.

No tall defenders??? Pfft.
Name a team that genuinely has four good talls over 191cm?
Melbourne, who had the best defence last season, have three and were highly criticised for recruiting May and Lever when they did by the Muppet, David King (among others).
Geelong (2nd best defence) have 2.
Port (3rd best) have 3.

Most teams with tall players that can play well, play them as forwards.

With the team defence being used so much now, you rarely get one-on-one contests in the forward line. As long as they're able to spoil and position well, you can be "undersized".
Howard (199)
Battle (193)
Highmore (193)
Wilkie (191) but plays taller.
Are not a bad set of tall defenders.

And we're developing more with Adams (197), Allison (195), and Joyce (194).