How many elites do the Saints have???

[saintsRrising]

A good team needs many things....and even though a truism is that a champion team will beat a team of champions......I think that there would be very few teams that win premierships that do not have several truly elite players....and more likely a core of say 4 or so.


The game just played Cox and Cousins burnt off the saints with dominationg second halves. ...and while there was much discussion about how Cousins should have had different players or tags on him...the fact is that Cousins was in his ELITE prime and burnt us off...just as Harvey for the Sainst in his ELITE prime burnt oppostion players no matter how good they were with his great stamina late in games when his opponents simply blew up.

In a post in a string a little while pack I mentioned that we CURRENTLY just have the one elite player....Some disagreed.

How many do YOU think we CURRENTLY have?

By my ranking Roo is our only CURRENT elite......and if Roo could slot a few more goals on the run....then he would elevate even further....to arguably be within the top 3 players in the AFL.

So who on our list could be an elite player????


Harvey...was elite....but is now a very good player. No disgrace in that after 20 years!!! He can still deliver elite games though....though these are now starting to be less frequent.


Hayes. Is just about back to being elite and I have no doubt will be an elite once again in 2008. In 2007 though his recovery has hampered him. IF we make the finals though in 2007 he may well deliver an elite September as he is looking more like the commading hayes of old.

Dal Santo Dal is too inconsisteant to be elklite. He has the capability and in some games takes your breath away. His best and worst are too far apart and his good to best do not happen often enough.

Sam Fisher Sam is another that could be elite. However while he finds al ot of the ball and has great poise, this season has seem him running off the HB line ony to waste the ball too often with sloppy disposal. Macleod of the Crows is so damaging because he hurts the opposition off HB with creative disposal. He has only played 70 games though....but as a late starter is now 25. Now is the time for him to step up and become an elite and to do that he must tighten up on his disposal.


Max Without injury Max would have given it a great shake, but has played too little fotball. However Max's disposal is at times wayward, and suffers from a brain fade or two every now and again which costs goals. though is arguably the best spoiling in the competition. In terms of pure defensive skills he is an elite. At his best he is probably as close as you can be to being an elite player with out being one...but perhaps I am too harsh.


Ball His injury problems have saidly reduced him to ordinary player status... we all HOPe that his upcoming surgery can allow him to be the elite player that he COULD be but is not.


BJ Unfortunately missed this year after really starting to bloom last year. However it is simply too early to say whether he can continue to improve to become an elite player rather than a very good player. hayes's knee has shown that we should not expect BJ to be an elite player in 2008. 2009 maybe???


Joey Has hada very good year.....and the interesting thing about Joey is that after you discount injury effects you can see that he ha improved pretty much each and every year. He has been very good this year, but at times (ie last quarter against the weagles) has been sloppy with his disposal. Elite players HURT the opposition. Joey is not elite this year.....but if he continues to improve his game he may well step up. I think perhaps though that he will settle into bea very good midfielder.


Kosi Well this year Kosi certainly has not been elite. But in passages has shown how damaging he can be. However his game is very much one built around the big mark. Injury has hamaered him and I think lack of confidence too.....but he has also had his impact lessened by oppostion coaches having worked out that a stationary Kosi can be put off his marking by firm body contact.....more easily thana player of his size normally would be.

As a ruckman he is to be brutally honest ordinary..does not position his body well or tap well...though has improved this year quite markedly.

Ross must find ways to make the most of Kosis' marking talents....and for this Kosi needs to be in motion...and not standing one on one where body contact puts him out too easily. His team mates need to understand this as weel and to kick to Kosi in the right spots. Kosi also needs to realise that when he is one on one to not present as a stationary target, but to be in motion...for this year we have often even seen small players just bump him at the right time to spoil the mark.

For a big man Kosi's footskills are very very good.

So if Kosi is used well...and he can hone his ruckwork further he could once again become an elite player......the one that we saw in his own mini 5 game streak a little while back.



Hamill If 100% fit...there is no doubt that hamill can be an elite player. Howerver his fitness cloud is currently as dark as they come.

Gardiner Again another ""Saint"' who could be an elite player IF he could get his body right....and as with Hamill it is an IF...but perhaps not as big an IF as Hamill's.





So there we have it...a list with quite a number of potential elites....but in terms of where they are RIGHT NOW....we have just the one in Roo...maybe two with hayes who is I think just about back.

Your thoughts?????

[meher baba]

The problem with the term "elite" is that it is a bit vague: eg, Lenny is a fabulous player, but I don't think he will ever become a "marquee player" of the Hird, Buckley, Voss, Carey, Harves, Riewoldt, etc. type. For me, he is on the level just below this: a terrifically-talented player, but neutral observers would never turn up at the ground simply to see him in action.

If we are talking "marquee players": we have two undoubted ones who are not injured, Riewoldt and Harvey. Gardiner and Hamill are also marquee players, but only theoretically so ATM.

IMO, we have four potential additional ones: Kosi, Dal Santo, Goddard and Gilbert. Luke Ball is also a possibility if he can get his fitness back to what it was. And maybe Raph Clarke is an outside chance.

Joey, Sam F, Max, Gehrig (although he has had his moments), etc. are in the same category as Lenny IMO.

There was a time when Milne looked like he might turn into a marquee player, but that time now appears to have well and truly passed.
[/i]

[Dan Warna]

i t hink lenny is a marquee player.

he just gets forgotten because of his long list of injuries.

as for elite players, if you have 5 or 6 on your list, and they are injured, they are still elite (ie. nathan brown at Richmond, there is no doubting he is a class above most in their list).

[saintsRrising]

i t hink lenny is a marquee player.

he just gets forgotten because of his long list of injuries.

as for elite players, if you have 5 or 6 on your list, and they are injured, they are still elite (ie. nathan brown at Richmond, there is no doubting he is a class above most in their list).

That is why I said CURRENTLY Dan...

The purpose of this string is to define what Saints players are playing elite football right here and now.

As well as to discuss who COULD be elite.

As it stands...Ball for example is note elite.

Being elite by name does not help the Saints win games of football...you need to be elite by action on match day.


Part of the reason I started this sttring is because I believe that our lack of wins this year is because we have been short of elite performancs.......an elite player sitting in the stands...or not playing as an elite player on match days does not win you games.

This is part of our problem at present.......yoou read through our list...and you think yes...pretty good list....but for various reasones the ACTUAL performance of the list is less ta what it promises to deliver.

[Dan Warna]

players who should be elite or close to elite.

Reiwoldt, Goddard, Lenny, FG, Dal Santo, Hamill, Maguire, ball and Goddard based on what they have done, respective wages, and time in their career.

those currently performing at an elite level.

Reiwoldt, Lenny, s. Fisher, Gram.

the difference is injuries, form, to some degree learning a new strategy, and the application of that strategy and effectiveness of that strategy.

ALso Dont forget prior to his injury midseason harvey was top 10 for form in just about every media award in the country.

If you have said players and can't field them or field them under duress or injury, then you have to wear the consequences (see WCE with Judd)

[saintsRrising]

and Gilbert. .

Yes Gilbert is certainly showing some SPECIAL early signs.....and Gram is another who had an awesome season last year. But one good season does not an elite player make.

[Saints43]

Was Gehrig an elite full forward until he started pushing into defence and getting about four scoring opportunites a game?

It's hard to define...

[carn_sainter]

We'll be generous and say elite is top 5%

5% of 640 players = 32

So, top 30 players in the comp...

Riewoldt definitely

That's all the definites

I think Sam Fisher is pretty close too

Plenty of Could-be's, such as Max (If fit), Ball (If Fit), Kosi (If he fulfills potential), Goddard (If improves contested ball), Hayes (If never got injured)...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

i t hink lenny is a marquee player.

he just gets forgotten because of his long list of injuries.

as for elite players, if you have 5 or 6 on your list, and they are injured, they are still elite (ie. nathan brown at Richmond, there is no doubting he is a class above most in their list).

That is why I said CURRENTLY Dan...

The purpose of this string is to define what Saints players are playing elite football right here and now.

As well as to discuss who COULD be elite.

As it stands...Ball for example is note elite.

Being elite by name does not help the Saints win games of football...you need to be elite by action on match day.

I agree with your premise - i.e. that a shortage at the top end as a result of injury hobbled the Saints early season, directly by impacting on the ability to turn games in the 1st half of the year.

IMO, Hayes is back. He's been held under 20 disposals once since R15, v Sydney. He's still short of his absolute best, but is consistently among the best on ground for the last 6 weeks. For me that's "elite".

Otherwise, obviously Riewoldt. I think Goddard is at that level due to being able to consistently manage things that many players can't do at all. I think you're hard on Dal to not put him in the category, though I understand the reasons. A healthy Max Hudghton is there (but not right now).

IMO, Kosi's just short of it (consistency), but is a player we can and will count on to play at an elite level over the next few years (I think he'll hit his prime for about 3 amazing years before doing himself so much damage that he won't last till 30). We've seen patches from Fisher and Maguire during their careers that suggest that they're capable of that, but Goose is far from his best, and Fisher has tailed over the last month. Gehrig and Harvey are both still capable of turning it on, but not to the levels they have been in the past.

There are a few Saints who I believe have the potential to geth there(X and R Clarke, Gilbert, Luke Ball whose health is the only obstacle), and a bunch more who have occasional great games to make us beleive it's possible (Gram, Montagna, even Fiora occasionally reminds why he was so highly touted as a junior), and in a fully firing team would quite possibly be brought to that level.

However, all that said, and premise granted, the biggest impact of lacking eltie was in the first half when St. Kilda was struggling with the new coaches approach, and could have used a few elite performances to turn a couple of games they didn't deserve to win that would make all the difference in the standings NOW. Since the break, the Saints have been good without being fantastic, with flashes of what could be. This is not built on elite players (though it helps), a healthy Hudghton, a more sonsitent Kosi, and the improvement shown in the 2nd half of the year being maintained, the Saints will be a much better team in '08... and if they make the finals, while we as Saints fans can't expect a premiership via 16 quarters of the Saints rarely sighted best, if I'm an opposition club, I'd be terrified that playing the Saints might see them string together 4 good ones against my team.

[St DAC]

As of today only Riewoldt is truly "elite". We have several very good players, but only the one "elite" IMO. Hayes back to his pre-knee form is on the cusp of elite; Dal at his best can play elite footy, but is not consistently at that level enough to earn the tag.

We dont have anyone else near enough to that level IMO.

** Elite is "best of the best", not just very very good.

[Dan Warna]

Lenny IMO stacks up with and against the best midfielders in teh league.

can play inside and outside, can run and carry, can't tackle, chace, does 1% like shepherd and block, can kick 45m plus accurately, can get his own footy, and gets 25 plus touches a game regularly enough to be consistently effective.

Statistically he matches up with the best midfielders in the game and then some.

while he does have some weaknesses (every player does) I can't see why simon black, daniel Kerr or others spouted here are listed above him.

I concur judd at his best is a special player, but even at his best has been quelled on a number of occassions so is fallable.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

roo is our superstar
the rest of the team are just the support acts
to be Elite in my opinion you have to tick at least 3 of the following boxes

a) be able to change the outcome of the game by your performance. players like Judd ,Pavlova, Fev, G, Hird, Buckley,Brown,Roo Harvey.....(i could go on )

b) Even on off days have an impact . again Judd, Pavlova Hird Brown Roo Harvey fall into this (as well as a few others)

c) be marketable . Judd Pav Hird Brown Roo

d) have success . Judd(personal/team) Hird(personal/team) Brown (team) Harvey(personal not team)

e) longevity- Hird Harvey


to be in 5 you are an absoulte legend of the game
if you put it as to be listed in 4 you are in the greatest to ever play the game
in 3 you are Elite
in 2 marquee player
in one very very good (star)

thats how i class it

[meher baba]

Lenny IMO stacks up with and against the best midfielders in teh league.

can play inside and outside, can run and carry, can't tackle, chace, does 1% like shepherd and block, can kick 45m plus accurately, can get his own footy, and gets 25 plus touches a game regularly enough to be consistently effective.

Statistically he matches up with the best midfielders in the game and then some.

while he does have some weaknesses (every player does) I can't see why simon black, daniel Kerr or others spouted here are listed above him.

I concur judd at his best is a special player, but even at his best has been quelled on a number of occassions so is fallable.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of Lenny.

But put him on the transfer market at the same time as Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Voss and Black (in early 2000s form), Hodge, Nathan Foley, Harvey (in 1990s form), and you and I both know that all of these guys - and a number of others - would attract better offers than Lenny. He's a terrific player, but he won't hurt you on the scoreboard in the way that these others will: he needs to have a couple of creative guys playing around him to whom he can deliver the ball.

In that sense, he's in the same category as a Scott West or an Anthony Stevens IMO (and I'm entitled to mine and you to yours).

[meher baba]

and Gilbert. .

Yes Gilbert is certainly showing some SPECIAL early signs.....and Gram is another who had an awesome season last year. But one good season does not an elite player make.

I agree, one season is not enough to draw a firm conclusion. But Gilbert looks to have the potential to become something special IMO.

Gram is a terrific player too, but I don't think he'll ever become a marquee player.

[Dan Warna]

IMHO if lenny was to hawk himself he would be worth 500k plus without a doubt IMO.

given the value of brown and stevens recently traded, without a doubt a team would pay 500k plus to have him at their side.

[AlpineStars]

we have 2 number 12 and number 7.

[kaos theory]

We only have one current elilte player on our list - Roo

Some people here are confusing potential or past form with elite.

Dal, Lenny (possibly Ball & Kosi) have potential to be elite but are not there atm. (Sam Fisher is close, but not quite) Lenny was elite in 05 & early 06. But is not there yet. Just compare a tape of him playing in 05/06 (even 04), and he was more explosive, sharper and quicker....After another pre-season, he may get back there...

We have a bunch of VG Players & GOPs that make up the rest of the list.

[Dan Warna]

IMO anyone who thinks lenny isn't one of the top midfielders in teh competition and has been since about 02/03 is a pharking idiot, thats my opinion.

to walk in and play the brand of attacking hard footy after nearly a year off with a series of stunning injuries, doesn't appreciate quality.

I dont know what you expect from an elite midfielder if lenny isn't it?

Lenny compares favourably with any midfielder int he competition on performance and that includes black, harvey, judd (who I think is lenny's better), bartel, yablett junior, lappin kirk or anyone else.

i think this is just another example of not appreciating what we have at the club and grass is greener on the other side syndrome.

[snoopygirl]

That's my unbiased opinion.

[JeffDunne]

Is Judd currently an elite player?

What about Kerr, he has a bung finger?

[spert]

Reiwoldt is the only current elite player we have.. I'm not looking at past form of players, and some of our guys are very good on their day, but not the champs some make them out to be. A few of the younger brigade especially Gram, SFisher, Gilbert will improve again next year.

[rogerwa]

roo-elite
hayes-very very good
dal santo-very good
about 1/2 doz on the next rung of the ladder-good
1/2 doz gop plusses
1/2 doz gops
the rest are a mixture of
could be's
should be's
maybe's
have been's(not meant in derogatry term)
never will be's

[meher baba]

IMO anyone who thinks lenny isn't one of the top midfielders in teh competition and has been since about 02/03 is a pharking idiot, thats my opinion.

I dont know what you expect from an elite midfielder if lenny isn't it?

Lenny compares favourably with any midfielder int he competition on performance and that includes black, harvey, judd (who I think is lenny's better), bartel, yablett junior, lappin kirk or anyone else.

I agree that Lenny is one of the top midfielders currently playing in the competition: if that is all that is required to be considered "elite", then he is elite.

I still think there is a type of AFL player going around who i would rate at a level above Lenny: perhaps we could agree to call them "super elite".

Of the list you have given above, Harvey, Judd and Ablett Jnr would certainly qualify for membership as would - among present-day players - Riewoldt, Kerr, Brown, Goodes, Aker, Scarlett, McLeod, Cox (it's shocking how many of these the Eagles have), possibly Scarlett, Hall and Pavlich, potentially Franklin, Foley and Hodge, etc. Cousins is borderline IMO: incredible courage and endurance (for whatever reasons) but, like Lenny, perhaps not quite damaging enough with the ball in his hands.

I don't think Black, Bartel, Lappin qualify: they are on a par with Lenny, West and Simpson. Kirk is a further level below: he's a good honest trier on a par with the likes of Haselby IMO.

My system of ranking is based upon the sense of relief I imagine I would feel if I were on an opposing side and heard that the player concerned would be missing through injury. Try it: it's a useful way of thinking about the relative importance of different players of any era.

[Dan Warna]

I can't see that Kerr is better than Lenny. or better than lenny in anyway that would separate them.

speed about the same
tackling Lenny better
delivery about the same
hard ball gets about the same
loose ball gets about the same
field kicking for goal maybe kerr marginally better
defencive skills lenny better
leadership lenny better
fast hands about the same
decision making about the same
.
.
.
Kerr is in a winning team and is a standout player with 3 or 4 others so looks really good, has been exposed a few times.

Its NO suprise that st kilda's form reversal has in part been due to the return of lenny. TBH maguire by example has had less impact to date than lenny, he just slotted in and waltzed straight to the top of our performance outputs after a year out.

Judd at his best (will we ever see it again?) is the best, after than on current form, Lenny is about as good as anything going around.

replace bartel or Ablett Jnr with lenny and I cannot see that Lenny would be worse than either of those, although lenny doesn't have the pace of gary jnr.

again its my opinion, but we are so busy looking elsewhere we sometimes miss what we have in house.

harvey at his best was as good as anything ever to play football.

[meher baba]

I can't see that Kerr is better than Lenny. or better than lenny in anyway that would separate them.

speed about the same
tackling Lenny better
delivery about the same
hard ball gets about the same
loose ball gets about the same
field kicking for goal maybe kerr marginally better
defencive skills lenny better
leadership lenny better
fast hands about the same
decision making about the same
.

replace bartel or Ablett Jnr with lenny and I cannot see that Lenny would be worse than either of those, although lenny doesn't have the pace of gary jnr.

This is an interesting debate.

Lenny is a highly consistent player: when he is fully fit, he delivers a superior performance every week.

Kerr is perhaps not quite as consistent, but he can do some things that Lenny can't: in particular, like Harvey, he has an ability to swerve away from tackles and weave his way through traffic to set up dangerous attacks. I have certainly seen Lenny do this sort of thing, but it isn't a hallmark of his game as it is for Kerr. It's like Kerr has an extra dimension to his play that Lenny doesn't.

Likewise GA Jnr, except that - this season - he seems to have about 3 extra dimensions to his game. He's rapidly knocking on the door for admission to the Hird, Voss, Carey, Harvey, etc. club.

Re Bartel: I agree with you, he's no better than Lenny.

again its my opinion, but we are so busy looking elsewhere we sometimes miss what we have in house.

I don't think that's the point. The sort of gamebreaking skills I am talking about are comparatively rare: we are extremely lucky to have one player who possesses them in spades (Riewoldt), one who can still summon them up for big games (Harvey) and two who have unleashed them on notable occasions (Kosi, NDS) and others with potential.

But we also musn't confuse the extremely good with the great. As I said before, the best way to measure a player's excellence is the attitude shown towards him by other teams. Lenny generates enormous respect, but no fear.

This measure is why I will never rate Buckley as an all-time great. I can never remember our going into a game against Collingwood where I was greatly concerned whether or not Buckley would be playing. He will usually have a good game, but you are never sitting on the edge of your seat in terror that he is about to single-handedly neutralise your attack or rip your defence to shreds.