RoMa in the ruck

[spert]

Can't really knock Marshall- he is doing a great job, but I feel his actions of grabbing the ball at centre bounces and booting it, are almost a message to our midfield to get into it. Our mids are static at ball ups and stoppages, no running, no spreading, just blocking, playing behind and playing too close together. If I was rucking, I would be saying stuff you guys, I'll do the hard work.

[older saint]

Perhaps the fact our mids are struggling to win clearance and we played a very good midfield has something to do with this tactic.
Without Crouch we lack clearance strength so to negate this perhaps this is the tactic which has been used.?

I think it has everything to do with it and he is probably operating under instruction. What does it say about the rest of the midfield when Marshall feels the need to - or is told to - do this?

Crouch and Clark back will lend much-needed support, but even then we’re not up with the top sides.

As it stands, I’d say Marshall is our only elite midfielder. Steele probably used to be, but he just seems to negate nowadays rather than win a lot of ball. Windhager may get there in time.

I’d have thought Owens would have been given an extended crack at it in the clearances, but apparently the powers that be don’t see him as suitable for that role. Perhaps he doesn’t have the endurance?

We need a Bont, a Petracca, a Dusty (in his prime) … a Lenny Hayes.

Read somewhere Steele is carrying a knee. He is still playing well but clearly not 100%, last qtr v Hawthorn was big and can still lift to that level.
I am not sure Owens has the tank to play mid. I see him more like a Stringer or even Cameron ( no where near as Good) who can go in for 5 min bursts and be that taller bigger body.
I see Windy becoming a very solid midfielder , going along the Steel e maturity method of be a tagger and work out patterns etc then get your own ball.
I cant see McCluggage moving but LDU is where the big money should go along with drafting mids ( will be top 5 pick, unless a camporeale goes high) which will add class, but please no more HB or HF flankers that we think will become mids as that hasnt really worked for us...

[bigcarl]

Perhaps the fact our mids are struggling to win clearance and we played a very good midfield has something to do with this tactic.
Without Crouch we lack clearance strength so to negate this perhaps this is the tactic which has been used.?

I think it has everything to do with it and he is probably operating under instruction. What does it say about the rest of the midfield when Marshall feels the need to - or is told to - do this?

Crouch and Clark back will lend much-needed support, but even then we’re not up with the top sides.

As it stands, I’d say Marshall is our only elite midfielder. Steele probably used to be, but he just seems to negate nowadays rather than win a lot of ball. Windhager may get there in time.

I’d have thought Owens would have been given an extended crack at it in the clearances, but apparently the powers that be don’t see him as suitable for that role. Perhaps he doesn’t have the endurance?

We need a Bont, a Petracca, a Dusty (in his prime) … a Lenny Hayes.

Read somewhere Steele is carrying a knee. He is still playing well but clearly not 100%, last qtr v Hawthorn was big and can still lift to that level.
I am not sure Owens has the tank to play mid. I see him more like a Stringer or even Cameron ( no where near as Good) who can go in for 5 min bursts and be that taller bigger body.
I see Windy becoming a very solid midfielder , going along the Steel e maturity method of be a tagger and work out patterns etc then get your own ball.
I cant see McCluggage moving but LDU is where the big money should go along with drafting mids ( will be top 5 pick, unless a camporeale goes high) which will add class, but please no more HB or HF flankers that we think will become mids as that hasnt really worked for us...

A little bird told me Owens can’t go through the midfield because his disposal is not up to it. I beg to differ, but then again, the club really should know the capabilities of its own players.

As for Steele, pre-Ross he was A-grade verging on elite. A ball-winning machine. You don’t see that much anymore, but perhaps it is injury and he can get back to it.

In a way I’d prefer it to be injury rather than a change in dynamic between captain and coach

[St Dave]

This is interesting, though I would prefer we were still developing the capability of some of our young kids by giving them opportunity, maybe it being a deliberate strategy is the real explanation. Hopefully with players coming back and some more trust in Dow we can share the load more.

I had that thought last year when Owens was dominating as that second ruck, that he was not using the ball super effectively, but it would still be good to see him getting the opportunity to develop in there.

[saintbob]

The big guy is great at taking the Sherrin outta the ruck contest, and hacking it forward.
It adds to his disposal tally, his coaches' votes, and his AF points.

BUT WHAT does it do for the team?

The kicks are like Seb's blind kicks to nobody.
What good are they?

His ruck play isn't like Luke Jackson, or Max Gawn, or any other top ruckmen.
A hacking kick can't help the team when it's a Hail Mary.

It's done in underage footy when a child who is larger than the others kicks it to nobody in desperate hope.

Gawn can feed it to Oliver, Petracca, etc.
Carlton's ruck can get it to Crippa etc.

Why get excited over 28 touches from RoMa when they're just empty numbers?

I think it is being coached because Campbell does the same thing at Sandy, it must frustrate the f*** out of the mids!

[B.M]

I would rather Ro get 30 and we win

But that would mean a few others would need to play well with him and not leave it to one player trying to dominate

It’s a silly argument

It’s like saying Gary Ablett is responsible for losing the 89 GF because he only kicked 9. Or you’d prefer he didn’t kick 9 as Geelong would have been a better chance of winning.

Ablett did his job then

Marshall did his job Sat

A few others did not

[St Dave]

I would rather Ro get 30 and we win

But that would mean a few others would need to play well with him and not leave it to one player trying to dominate

It’s a silly argument

It’s like saying Gary Ablett is responsible for losing the 89 GF because he only kicked 9. Or you’d prefer he didn’t kick 9 as Geelong would have been a better chance of winning.

Ablett did his job then

Marshall did his job Sat

A few others did not

It might help to use the quote function mate, it helps keep the question on front of you when you are answering it.

Though you propose a radical concept (I would like a player to get lots of possessions and we win), the topic of the thread is 'maybe one player getting lots of possessions is hurting the team overall'. Feel free to try and answer the actual question though, it might generate meaningful discussion if that's something you are interested in.

I don't know if it is reading comprehension or deliberately trolling, but if you bothered to engage with the topic, you would know that comparing it to a player kicking alot of goals is completely different, because kicking more goals than the opposition is the primary way to win a game. A goal cannot be bad, but a wasted possession is. Maybe if Gary Ablett had kicked 4.6 rather than 9.1 it would be a better comparison, but that didn't happen just like your 30 and a win fantasy.

[Devilhead]

Point you are failing to address BM is that some are saying that it would better for us to try and move the ball from a stoppage scenario through hands to the outside to running kickers that are free to spot up a target rather than RoMo to grab it and boot it blindly to no one.

Just seems to me and obvious to some that RoMo has ramped up this tactic of grabbing it more than he did previously ...... is it part of the game plan? Because we are currently deficient with inside contested ball winners?

Now with Crouch & Clark back who can win it on the inside will we revert to the inside-out game play more often rather than RoMo grabbing it?

Will be interesting going forward

[B.M]

Marshall was voted as the BEST stk player

Both the last two weeks by the coaches

I’m pretty sure the results have a bit more to do with his lack of support from a few others - not visa versa

Your argument is silly

Trying to pin the result on our best player, by convincing yourself that even though he was our best player he wasn’t effective- what a crock of s***

Maybe focus on the fact we had about 5 players get half a dozen possessions or less

Steele only had 18 as a primary mid

The forward line was dysfunctional

Ball movement front to back was horrendous

Not the fact our ruckman had 37 hit outs, 31 possessions and single handily kept us in the game!

If you don’t think he was our best player - you have no idea

[Devilhead]

No one thinks he didn't have a great game.... you turnip!

He was fantastic but his game can be refined to bring others into the game more ... especially around stoppages

It is seemingly clear that currently Marshall's first instinct is to grab the ball out of a ruck contest and kick it ..... but this a low % gameplay .... maybe he could look to handball it to a player on the outside for once ..... that's all anyone is asking

[St Dave]

B.M must be trolling. You can't be seriously arguing that our mids need to work harder and bring up their low possession numbers (I don't have ruck contest attendance to hand, but disposals for Steele 18, Windhager 17 and Dow 15 are clearly low), when the point we are discussing is Marshall grabbing the ball and kicking it over their heads? That's is exactly the point people are making, except some how you see it as the fault of the mids like they should be grabbing the ball straight off the boot or something.

If it is the strategy at Sandy too as saintbob mentioned above, that would be disappointing but explains why it has been pretty rare to see and mids really dominating at that level (with the exception of this week against whoever Richmond roped in on the day).

[B.M]

How often did he grab the ball out of the ruck?

10 times??

There were around 90 ball ups

It’s a reasonable tact - it gets the ball going your way (it’s a territory game)

If you win a hit out stats say it’s about 60/40 that you even win the clearance. Over half the clearances are dump kicks - regardless of who kicks it anyway.

Clean clearances are not that common

[WellardSaint]

SEN has just put out a story (a coupla hours ago) about RoMa's influence, saying his numbers look good but make him look better than they should, and are misleading.

Hey, listen, I don't work for SEN, I actually live in Perth.
I wonder if they get on here and Bigfooty, read our stuff to get ideas. They'd be silly not to. Topics here that garner lots of polarising comments give them ideas of what fans are thinking.

Anyway, i can't link the article, but briefly...
Daniel Hoyne of Champion Data said our clearance numbers are 17th, with only the Roos lower.
Further, he reckons that vs Hawks, RoMa had 23 contested possies, but zeroscore involvements, 'never been done before' he says.

I'm not quoting SEN to bolster my original post (actually I am )
I don't like what Champion Data does with their analysis and parameters, but they're held up as experts.

[Devilhead]

Not sure how CD compile their data but all other stat sites have us sitting 13th in Clearances ... averaging 35.5 per game ... the league average is 36.6

Bottom is Richmond with 29.1

North above us in 12th on 35.7

[loris]

SEN has just put out a story (a coupla hours ago) about RoMa's influence, saying his numbers look good but make him look better than they should, and are misleading.

Hey, listen, I don't work for SEN, I actually live in Perth.
I wonder if they get on here and Bigfooty, read our stuff to get ideas. They'd be silly not to. Topics here that garner lots of polarising comments give them ideas of what fans are thinking.

Anyway, i can't link the article, but briefly...
Daniel Hoyne of Champion Data said our clearance numbers are 17th, with only the Roos lower.
Further, he reckons that vs Hawks, RoMa had 23 contested possies, but zeroscore involvements, 'never been done before' he says.

I'm not quoting SEN to bolster my original post (actually I am )
I don't like what Champion Data does with their analysis and parameters, but they're held up as experts.

Yes I also read that article earlier & thought the writer summed up what my eyes have been telling of late watching Marshall’s grabbing ball & dump kicking forward - not much benefit to Saints forward line ( don’t know if that’s the fault of our forwards though??) Rarely ( if at all) has there been a goal result from it. Most times defenders appear to send it back to opposition forward area.

Also I notice now, opposition players are awake up to his tactic, quite a few of his dump kick attempts get smothered off his boot.


Maybe it’s not having Crouch at the centre bounces so much this year has made Marshall resort to this tactic so often? Saints have really missed Crouch in & under work this this year & delivering the ball out by hand quickly
IMO. At least Crouch sets up to get his hands on ball first, whereas Steele seems to be second to ball, tackle try & stop opponent.
However, Crouch not playing, doesn’t account for Marshall resorting to this dump kicking so often, for when Roma
gets the ball in other parts of the ground & not solely in ruck contests, he often just bombs away.
I've often wondered if Marshall has been instructed recently to play this way as it’s part of a game plan, as it’s been more noticeable this year - especially with Crouch not at centre bounces & stoppages. ????

[WellardSaint]

Not sure how CD compile their data but all other stat sites have us sitting 13th in Clearances ... averaging 35.5 per game ... the league average is 36.6

Bottom is Richmond with 29.1

North above us in 12th on 35.7

Hoyne is quoted as '2nd least damaging team from clearance. Only Nth Melb get a worse scoreboard return from their clearances'

CD is counting scores generated from clearance. I wonder how many touches from clearance to score are allowed in their analysis.
Like I said, I don't like their analysis as it's never clear to me

[WellardSaint]

Thank you so much Loris

Objective assessment, not the rose-coloured glasses.

I am certain Roma is told to hack it fwd.
We don't have Gawn-Tracc/Oliver, Luke Jackson- Brayshaw/Serong, Lions ruck- Neale etc

There's little connection from Ruck to aggressive ball-winning mid.
Until Windy develops consistency.
I think he got 2 touches in the last qtr.
Agree with your comments re Steele.

Roma's Auskick-style dump kick is a clear signal that SoS n Ross will target ready-made mids as a desperate 'must-have

[loris]

Thank you so much Loris

Objective assessment, not the rose-coloured glasses.

I am certain Roma is told to hack it fwd.
We don't have Gawn-Tracc/Oliver, Luke Jackson- Brayshaw/Serong, Lions ruck- Neale etc

There's little connection from Ruck to aggressive ball-winning mid.
Until Windy develops consistency.
I think he got 2 touches in the last qtr.
Agree with your comments re Steele.

Roma's Auskick-style dump kick is a clear signal that SoS n Ross will target ready-made mids as a desperate 'must-have

Thank for the Wellard - so much better than the I’m getting from my footy team

My post may have read like I’m a real Brad Crouch fan, it’s only since he hasn’t been playing I’ve realised how important he is to our centre bounce & stoppages structures.

[WellardSaint]

Thank you so much Loris

Objective assessment, not the rose-coloured glasses.

I am certain Roma is told to hack it fwd.
We don't have Gawn-Tracc/Oliver, Luke Jackson- Brayshaw/Serong, Lions ruck- Neale etc

There's little connection from Ruck to aggressive ball-winning mid.
Until Windy develops consistency.
I think he got 2 touches in the last qtr.
Agree with your comments re Steele.

Roma's Auskick-style dump kick is a clear signal that SoS n Ross will target ready-made mids as a desperate 'must-have

Thank for the Wellard - so much better than the I’m getting from my footy team

My post may have read like I’m a real Brad Crouch fan, it’s only since he hasn’t been playing I’ve realised how important he is to our centre bounce & stoppages structures.

Hi L...
Going off Crouch's raw numbers as a Saint (ignoring this year)
His avg disposals were
26, 27, 27
Clearances won
4.9, 5 and 5
Contested Possessions
11, 11 and 11

Mere numbers aren't the whole story as he provides great support to Steele.
A job shared is a job halved

Crouch, Steele, Windy (with a cameo of Sincs) is better than what we have now

FQF

[St Dave]

SEN has just put out a story (a coupla hours ago) about RoMa's influence, saying his numbers look good but make him look better than they should, and are misleading.

Hey, listen, I don't work for SEN, I actually live in Perth.
I wonder if they get on here and Bigfooty, read our stuff to get ideas. They'd be silly not to. Topics here that garner lots of polarising comments give them ideas of what fans are thinking.

Anyway, i can't link the article, but briefly...
Daniel Hoyne of Champion Data said our clearance numbers are 17th, with only the Roos lower.
Further, he reckons that vs Hawks, RoMa had 23 contested possies, but zeroscore involvements, 'never been done before' he says.

I'm not quoting SEN to bolster my original post (actually I am )
I don't like what Champion Data does with their analysis and parameters, but they're held up as experts.

The link for people interested:
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/05/22/ ... s-suggest/

As nice as it feels to have the eye test vindicated, I would rather be wrong and hopefully we will see a turnaround with strategy and players coming back.

I would generally trust champion data, they have access to a lot more in terms of detailed statistics and player data that they then sell, so you would expect it all to be pretty accurate and useful.

[B.M]

Vindication- from Daniel Hoyne

Haha

We are ranked last because of the connection forward

Because as Ross says - the midfield is spluttering

Should I feel vindicated be Marshall was Sainter of the round?

Who did you vote as StKs best player last two games?

How do you rate our mids in the last two weeks??

[St Dave]

Vindication- from Daniel Hoyne

Haha

We are ranked last because of the connection forward

Because as Ross says - the midfield is spluttering

Should I feel vindicated be Marshall was Sainter of the round?

Who did you vote as StKs best player last two games?

How do you rate our mids in the last two weeks??

I think I am slowly learning these forums, so I think maybe you get one more chance to try reading the thread again B.M, before I can safely assume you are either a troll or just a broken clock (very occasionally right but mostly not worth paying attention to).

No-one here has said our midfielders or forwards have played well, the topic of the thread is that one players good performance isn't helping the team as a whole, and 28 touches for 0 score involvements against the Hawks is pretty damning (remember a score involvement is any touch or hit out in a chain that leads to a score). If a player touching the ball meant we were guaranteed to not score is that good or bad do you think?

I'm glad we agree we are ranked second last because of our connection forward, but think deeper and tell me how important is the kick in to the forward line to that connection? Do you want Max King sitting in a pack waiting for a ball to land on his head? Our would you prefer a kick that he has to run and jump at?

[The_Dud]

What’s best for Marshall’s game isn’t necessarily best for the team’s game, it’s not a hard or foreign concept to get your head around.

Maybe the midfielder’s numbers would be higher if they had a quality ‘rucking’ ruckman feeding them the ball more/better?

[The_Dud]

Just read the article, makes perfect sense, good to see hard stats that back up what our eyes have been telling us.

[B.M]

Rubbish