Innovate or perish. Part 2

[Scollop]

The worst thing St Kilda could do right now is go backwards. I don't want to see a midfield with Seb, Steele and Crouch.

I think there is a growing chorus of Saints supporters crying out for Owens to be used as an inside mid. I don't want him to be the second ruck. It's like the Blake Acres debate all over again.

I had another think about what tony74 said about Owens and so I thought I'd get some stats up to see who has better disposal efficiency out of Crouch vs Owens

Now we know Brad played the vast majority of the year in 2023 as an inside mid, but he also played as a high half forward and he played on the wing as well. 'Year of experimentation' remember? Crouch's averages also point to a larger proportion of possessions as uncontested.

In fact, Owens had a higher percentage of contested possessions than Crouch did. In other words, if Crouch has a higher percentage of touches that are uncontested possessions you'd expect him to have higher disposal efficiency. He didn't!!

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Owens will improve his decision making and his handballs to team mates, with experience

He can also float forward and get a mismatch if Ross wants him forward

He will win the footy at stoppages, so the sooner they put him in there, the sooner we improve as a midfield unit.

Just in case you were wondering about Sebby's disposal efficiency vs Owens, here it is

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Just in case you missed what tony74 said about the reasons for not putting Mich in the guts as a pure mid, here it is

https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... 8#p2060708

[Devilhead]

When is Part III coming out?

[Scollop]

When is Part III coming out?

Give it another 6 weeks

Some of the people defending the coaching group will start their own threads with ideas and solutions

Could even be you Devilhead

David King was rabbitting on about Lyon needing to put NWM in the middle. He said it on Fox Footy and repeated his brain fart on SEN. Outside run is not our issue. Henry, Wood, Hill and Sincs and Wilson are providing the run. We need bulls who can win first use. Marshall and Steele can't do it alone

[Brunswicksainter]

Nice analysis.

[Scollop]

Nice analysis.

Cheers mate

It doesn't make sense to say you can't use Owens because of his poor disposal, when you are currently using Crouch who has equally poor disposal

We know Owens is still very raw. He has only played 40 games. He has upside. We have time on our hands to allow him to grow into the role.

It's up to our coaching group to teach and educate and help him improve in the areas he needs to....but it's not going to happen if you leave him in the forward line for the next 2 years

[St Dave]

This is very interesting data Scollop, thanks for gathering the data. I had also thought that Owens was blazing away a bit last year, so good to know it wasn't really any worse than other players. I agree, we should be giving time in the middle to our young players to develop them, especially while injuries had provided opportunity without needing to drop Steele or Crouch.

[bigcarl]

The worst thing St Kilda could do right now is go backwards. I don't want to see a midfield with Seb, Steele and Crouch.

I think there is a growing chorus of Saints supporters crying out for Owens to be used as an inside mid. I don't want him to be the second ruck. It's like the Blake Acres debate all over again.

I had another think about what tony74 said about Owens and so I thought I'd get some stats up to see who has better disposal efficiency out of Crouch vs Owens

Now we know Brad played the vast majority of the year in 2023 as an inside mid, but he also played as a high half forward and he played on the wing as well. 'Year of experimentation' remember? Crouch's averages also point to a larger proportion of possessions as uncontested.

In fact, Owens had a higher percentage of contested possessions than Crouch did. In other words, if Crouch has a higher percentage of touches that are uncontested possessions you'd expect him to have higher disposal efficiency. He didn't!!

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Owens will improve his decision making and his handballs to team mates, with experience

He can also float forward and get a mismatch if Ross wants him forward

He will win the footy at stoppages, so the sooner they put him in there, the sooner we improve as a midfield unit.

Just in case you were wondering about Sebby's disposal efficiency vs Owens, here it is

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Just in case you missed what tony74 said about the reasons for not putting Mich in the guts as a pure mid, here it is

https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... 8#p2060708

I’m with you on this. Should have at least been tried already this season in the absence of a mid-field bull such as Crouch … particularly as Steele - for whatever reason (possibly injury) is not the player he was pre-Lyon.

[Scollop]

This is very interesting data Scollop, thanks for gathering the data. I had also thought that Owens was blazing away a bit last year, so good to know it wasn't really any worse than other players. I agree, we should be giving time in the middle to our young players to develop them, especially while injuries had provided opportunity without needing to drop Steele or Crouch.

Steele is a capable goal kicker. He's also a gun tackler. One of the best in the league. If you need forwards who provide pressure and can score he can rotate with Mich.

Steele isn't quick but he reads the game. When I watched the replay, I saw him stop Freo's run and handball game by swooping on the receiver.

We have players who can play multiple roles. If coaches want to make excuses at the end of each game by telling us 'we tried this and we tried that'...well ... really? You ran out of positional moves?

[takeaway]

The worst thing St Kilda could do right now is go backwards. I don't want to see a midfield with Seb, Steele and Crouch.

I think there is a growing chorus of Saints supporters crying out for Owens to be used as an inside mid. I don't want him to be the second ruck. It's like the Blake Acres debate all over again.

I had another think about what tony74 said about Owens and so I thought I'd get some stats up to see who has better disposal efficiency out of Crouch vs Owens

Now we know Brad played the vast majority of the year in 2023 as an inside mid, but he also played as a high half forward and he played on the wing as well. 'Year of experimentation' remember? Crouch's averages also point to a larger proportion of possessions as uncontested.

In fact, Owens had a higher percentage of contested possessions than Crouch did. In other words, if Crouch has a higher percentage of touches that are uncontested possessions you'd expect him to have higher disposal efficiency. He didn't!!

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Owens will improve his decision making and his handballs to team mates, with experience

He can also float forward and get a mismatch if Ross wants him forward

He will win the footy at stoppages, so the sooner they put him in there, the sooner we improve as a midfield unit.

Just in case you were wondering about Sebby's disposal efficiency vs Owens, here it is

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_ ... 023&type=A

Just in case you missed what tony74 said about the reasons for not putting Mich in the guts as a pure mid, here it is

https://www.saintsational.net/viewtopic ... 8#p2060708

Crouch isn't even back yet, Scolops, and you are already on the DE% train again!

Absolutely irrelevant stats, comparing DE especially when they play different positions. Means nothing, maybe a better option for you to use would be that both Crouch/Ross have more clangers than Mitch! Crouch spent very little time on wing or HF last year, not enough to even come into the equation. He was our best inside mid last year, and if considered match fit, will be back in the midfield this week.

Don't mind Mitch going into midfield at times, but imo his best role at present is forward. Ross is fading, and some of the younger guys might more regularly take his spot, Mitch included. Not convinced Mitch is a midfielder though.

[Vortex]

When is Part III coming out?

Sequels can be very hit-and-miss especially if the original is one of the all time classics.

[Devilhead]

Conan the Destroyer was very disappointing

Hopefully Michito the Destroyer will be better

[Scollop]

takeaway,

It's relevant because tony74 reckons Mich has poor disposal. The data points to Mich having higher contested possession percentages and STILL having higher disposal efficiency. You can be as dismissive and condescending as you like, it doesn't alter the stats

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

[takeaway]

takeaway,

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

I said Crouch was our best inside mid last year, hopefully he can reach that level for the rest of this year.

One final is no measurement, we would not have played in a final last year without Crouch. Subject to his knee being ok, he should be good for another 3-4 years.

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Plenty of time to churn players through the middle (and elsewhere), but have to be reasonably competitive or supporters like yourself will spit the dummy. Most likely we will not start showing some consistency, and look a real threat for a high ladder position until into 2026. Can you last that long?

[bigcarl]

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Believe it when I see it

[Scollop]

takeaway,

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

I said Crouch was our best inside mid last year, hopefully he can reach that level for the rest of this year.

One final is no measurement, we would not have played in a final last year without Crouch. Subject to his knee being ok, he should be good for another 3-4 years.

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Plenty of time to churn players through the middle (and elsewhere), but have to be reasonably competitive or supporters like yourself will spit the dummy. Most likely we will not start showing some consistency, and look a real threat for a high ladder position until into 2026. Can you last that long?

I lived through the '80s. Saw Plugger, Winmar etc. at Waverley in the 91 and 92 finals. Went to 97 GF

Been a member 22 years. My son is an adult now and buys his own. He's been a member for 17 years straight. As I've said on multiple occasions over the last 10 years, I'll still be here when some of the employees and 'career' coaches are long gone

[Otiman]

You can't throw 23 players under 50 games at the same time in the AFL. They will flounder, fail to develop, and you will need another rebuild.

What you need is a group of senior players who are good enough at the game, but more importantly can mentor the young players on the field.

"Those who can't do, teach" is not a bad way of thinking about it.

Look at Tom Campbell. Geary was in the same boat. I think Seb is another who could play this role, potentially at VFL level.

We have brought in some heart and soul of the club players like Wood and Hill who have changed the direction of our kids.

This is more important than a development coach.

[Vortex]

SS Bulletin #1 - Midfield Talent Spotting Credibility

It is advised posters refrain from over using the word "Bull" to describe a young player who you believe is capable of playing a midfield role. This is even if you believe said midfielder looks like an "actual" Bull as this will not only do little to disguise your apparent lack of skill in understanding what a midfielder actually looks like, but it will also make people think you are on some type of strong medication.

And to avoid awkward situations and any personal embarrassment, posters are recommended to do some due diligence on any young player they believe is a midfielder before expressing any strong views in a manic fashion on public forums.

The player bios on Saints.com.au is recommended as a good source for doing player due diligence, there you will find what position the club thinks the player is best suited to. If you are still unsure about what position a player is suited to, try watching games on weekends to observe which postion the player is located at mostly.

[takeaway]

takeaway,

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

I said Crouch was our best inside mid last year, hopefully he can reach that level for the rest of this year.

One final is no measurement, we would not have played in a final last year without Crouch. Subject to his knee being ok, he should be good for another 3-4 years.

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Plenty of time to churn players through the middle (and elsewhere), but have to be reasonably competitive or supporters like yourself will spit the dummy. Most likely we will not start showing some consistency, and look a real threat for a high ladder position until into 2026. Can you last that long?

I lived through the '80s. Saw Plugger, Winmar etc. at Waverley in the 91 and 92 finals. Went to 97 GF

Been a member 22 years. My son is an adult now and buys his own. He's been a member for 17 years straight. As I've said on multiple occasions over the last 10 years, I'll still be here when some of the employees and 'career' coaches are long gone

I am not disputing your history as a Saints supporter.

I just formed the above impression, after flipping through a few of the recent threads, where about every 3rd post was a Scollop post, 80% or so being anti Ross. Your posting volume, whilst normally quite regular, exploded exponentially, and to me a lot of them didn't make much sense.

Good to hear you reckon you can last, maybe pacing yourself a little bit might be an idea.

[B.M]

Ross - as he does - has pigeonholed Owens

[Vortex]

Ross - as he does - has pigeonholed Owens

It's become more obvious with each game Mitch plays that not only is he not a full time midfielder, sorry I meant "Midfield Bull", that he also looks like he could be that 3rd tall forward we've been desperately looking for.

My guess is he's being looked at as Members replacement.

[Teflon]

takeaway,

Staying conservative in your thinking is not the answer to St Kilda improving.

Considering Brad Crouch as our 'best inside mid' is flawed. Windy was only in his second year, Sincs was only starting to be used in the middle and Steele was injured.

Crouch is fading just as Seb Ross is. He also played poorly in the final. That's where you're measured.

Hopefully Crouch is match fit soon and can help out, but he's not the future

I said Crouch was our best inside mid last year, hopefully he can reach that level for the rest of this year.

One final is no measurement, we would not have played in a final last year without Crouch. Subject to his knee being ok, he should be good for another 3-4 years.

With Crouch in there will still be plenty of opportunity for Owens to rotate in there, and that is what will most likely happen.

Plenty of time to churn players through the middle (and elsewhere), but have to be reasonably competitive or supporters like yourself will spit the dummy. Most likely we will not start showing some consistency, and look a real threat for a high ladder position until into 2026. Can you last that long?

I lived through the '80s. Saw Plugger, Winmar etc. at Waverley in the 91 and 92 finals. Went to 97 GF

Been a member 22 years. My son is an adult now and buys his own. He's been a member for 17 years straight. As I've said on multiple occasions over the last 10 years, I'll still be here when some of the employees and 'career' coaches are long gone

I am not disputing your history as a Saints supporter.

I just formed the above impression, after flipping through a few of the recent threads, where about every 3rd post was a Scollop post, 80% or so being anti Ross. Your posting volume, whilst normally quite regular, exploded exponentially, and to me a lot of them didn't make much sense.

Good to hear you reckon you can last, maybe pacing yourself a little bit might be an idea.

You heard from Trollop first !!
Crouch is benchmarked off his wing attributes

[Devilhead]

Think they see Owens like a Hamill or Stringer or Stevie J type ... that bullocking dynamic x-factor goal kicking half forward who can pinch hit in the middle every now and again

[Vortex]

Think they see Owens like a Hamill or Stringer or Stevie J type ... that bullocking dynamic x-factor goal kicking half forward who can pinch hit in the middle every now and again

It stands out like dogs bulls aye!

[nostalgicsaint]

So in a side which struggles for potency up forward...

Scollop would like us to take the forward who just kicked over a third of our score and move him to the midfield because he wins contested footy, which incidently is a stat we have won the last 3 weeks in a row.

Owens over the past 3 weeks has attended 8 center bounces for 1 center clearance and has had a total of 2 general clearances over that time period. In that time he has had 11 score involvements.

Yes he isn't having the year he did last year, our forward line isn't getting the same representation, our opponents actually know who he is and our midfield hasn't delivered the ball well but based on everything I can see.... keep the dangerous, hard to match up player up forward please.

[Devilhead]

He is on target to kick as many or more goals this year

Though not as many disposals, marks, tackles or clearances unless of course he has a storming 2nd half of the season