2023-24

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Well, we're married to nice-guy Ratten now until at least mid-season 2024 (reportedly the AFL won't allow us more than a six-month payout).

Anyone see any cause for optimism? Especially if we finish tenth, say, after being 8-3?

Anyone see where the improvement is going to come from?

Our incoming CEO bet the farm on Hannebury, Hill, Crouch etc and now says we're not a top four side.

in the off-deason he'll probably gamble bigtime (again) on De Goey -- another desperate quickfix to generate some much-needed enthusiasm.

But is anyone enthusiastic?

[WellardSaint]

2023 will be like 2021 all over again.
We'll come up against a Bombers side that's lost most of its games, and we'll roll over and let em tickle our bellies.

We'll lose games that we're supposed to win, and Ratts will keep trotting out platitudes.

[SunnyErnie]

Well, we're married to nice-guy Ratten now until at least mid-season 2024 (reportedly the AFL won't allow us more than a six-month payout).

Anyone see any cause for optimism? Especially if we finish tenth, say, after being 8-3?

Anyone see where the improvement is going to come from?

Our incoming CEO bet the farm on Hannebury, Hill, Crouch etc and now says we're not a top four side.

in the off-deason he'll probably gamble bigtime (again) on De Goey -- another desperate quickfix to generate some much-needed enthusiasm.

But is anyone enthusiastic?

You hit the nail on its head Waltzing. Satan has destroyed us with his quick fixes. All he has achieved is putting us into “No Man’s Land”. Continually finishing between 9th and 12th is the worst possible result. Not good enough to challenge and not bad enough to get the cream of the best draft picks!

[skeptic]

Take the current team

Add in a De Goey and Amon...

Draft another promising kid and maybe see some incremental improvement in the kids that may force out some of the under performing senior players.

It doesn’t feel like a complete train wreck to me.

Look at this group of players...
Billings, Jones, Gresh, Hannebery, Clark, Coffield, Joyce, Wood, Paton, Lienert, Butler and Higgins

All there to consistently play to a particular standard and all tend to miss more often then not for one reason or another. Some it’s injury, some it’s not enough opportunity... some just have a harder role than others.
Now, obviously you can’t just get rid of them all. But you need to upgrade the right ones and persevere with the right ones.

That’s where Ratten is supposed to earn his money. Making the right calls there regardless of what we all think. Say he keeps the right 6 that get closer to their potential and moves on 6 that don’t and replaces them with talent either traded or drafted that do better...

Then of course you have the core youth... Bytel, Connolly, Byrnes, Hayes, Heath etc. + the regular playing draftees - same deal

Make the right calls, improve it a little bit more.

We make a bunch of really good decisions, the turn around potential here is huge and can occur quickly. Heck a month ago we were almost certainly finals bound.


IMO the single biggest coach killer in AFL football is the mistake of overrating and overvaluing players on the list... and IMO you tend to see it a lot when teams are winning.
This club is extremely is guilty of persevering with players that haven’t and won’t perform close to the standard expected of them for far too long. 3-4 years some of them.

A guy like Kent for example, barely kicked goals or got touches in the year we made the finals. Had a handful of games early where he got 6-7 touches and kicked 2 goals late (clutch) and the majority praised those performances... but barely got near it after that. Then for two years since his output is more or less the same... 5-6 touches, barely hits the score board and people are suddenly thinking, hey now that we’re not winning this actually isn’t that good.
He’s been on the list what... 4-5years and up until round 1 this year people were calling him top 22... the number of forumites here that were thankful he got the nod was embarrassing. He’s terrible and has been so for ages.

I’m iffy with Rats... always have been because he has this criteria and to my way of thinking (and yes who am I)... it is far too heavily weighted towards unrealistic potential/expectation and not based on seen performance or realistic possibility of said standard being met.

IMO, he needs to have a good, emotionless look at his list, figure out who will realistically reach the level of performance he thinks they can and make the call.

[Yorkeys]

Can Brett be hard-nosed, make hard decisions, develop young players?
How do you rate him in regard to Max King's use and development.
Was Brett extended because the players and coaches are comfortable with him or his ability to make them uncomfortable when we play crap.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

The problem with the current admin taking a good, hard, emotionless look at the list is that they'll delist handy players like Hind and Acres (partly to make the way for the new Brad Hill, no doubt).

I don't blame them for delsting McCaetin but even he is tearing it up after a shrewd move to the backline (something we seem incapable of).

We'e 17 rounds in and it looks likely we'll only have one All Australian contender -- Sinclair (probably on the bench if he make it at all).

And even though NWM and Windhager have been impressive at time, not one Rising Star nomination so far.

Our development of players is appalling.

Max King is back to treading water. The sight of him on Saturday night twirling the ball in his run-up -- and missing, predictably -- was immensely frustrating.

[Vortex]

Well, we're married to nice-guy Ratten now until at least mid-season 2024 (reportedly the AFL won't allow us more than a six-month payout).

Anyone see any cause for optimism? Especially if we finish tenth, say, after being 8-3?

Anyone see where the improvement is going to come from?

Our incoming CEO bet the farm on Hannebury, Hill, Crouch etc and now says we're not a top four side.

in the off-deason he'll probably gamble bigtime (again) on De Goey -- another desperate quickfix to generate some much-needed enthusiasm.

But is anyone enthusiastic?

Always enthusiastic, I like winning and losing not so much but I hate it even more when the footy season ends.

After 2024 comes 2025, what's not to love.

[thejiggingsaint]

Well, we're married to nice-guy Ratten now until at least mid-season 2024 (reportedly the AFL won't allow us more than a six-month payout).

Anyone see any cause for optimism? Especially if we finish tenth, say, after being 8-3?

Anyone see where the improvement is going to come from?

Our incoming CEO bet the farm on Hannebury, Hill, Crouch etc and now says we're not a top four side.

in the off-deason he'll probably gamble bigtime (again) on De Goey -- another desperate quickfix to generate some much-needed enthusiasm.

But is anyone enthusiastic?

Always enthusiastic, I like winning and losing not so much but I hate it even more when the footy season ends.

After 2024 comes 2025, what's not to love.

agree 100% If I was influenced simply by "results" then I would never have started following this club. I've now got my head around the fact that I'm not going to see the Saints win their second flag in the years I have left (I'm now 77) and I go to matches now with the view to enjoying the company of good pals and watching the footy!
Results can take care of themselves as far as this old fart is concerned.

[Banger9798]

Reasons for optimism:

We've played some excellent footy this year, and won 9 games, and lost a couple we dominated (Port in the wet), which is easy to forget.
Compared to the last few years our skills have gone up, we can consistently hit those shortpasses coming out of the backline.
Not so long ago, that was heart in mouth stuff

We have recruited well in the last couple of years, including good NGA and mid season draft picks.

We are a KP player down in defence, and we seem to have a perennial issue of undersized backmen. Wilkie cannot give 6-8cm away and win every week!

We have virtually been without our early draft picks Coffield and Clark this year. They are in the age bracket that should be hitting their prime in next 3 years. That is just very bad luck that should change next year

Our players want to stay and we have no /little internal strife....huge positive

Players want to come to the club....Amon for instance, possibly DeGoey or Taranto. A few years ago we couldn't attract anyone.

[spert]

Can Brett be hard-nosed, make hard decisions, develop young players?
How do you rate him in regard to Max King's use and development.
Was Brett extended because the players and coaches are comfortable with him or his ability to make them uncomfortable when we play crap.

I'm worried that Max is not going forward in development- natural skills aside, he doesn't seem to be progressing much in team related work, or other forward skills. I think he is going into his shell under pressure.

[Vortex]

Can Brett be hard-nosed, make hard decisions, develop young players?
How do you rate him in regard to Max King's use and development.
Was Brett extended because the players and coaches are comfortable with him or his ability to make them uncomfortable when we play crap.

I'm worried that Max is not going forward in development- natural skills aside, he doesn't seem to be progressing much in team related work, or other forward skills. I think he is going into his shell under pressure.

It pains me to say this but he's just soft as butter. I can't think of a bigger sook to have ever played the game. His incredibly poor attitude is infectious and would be so dispiriting as a fellow forward playing in the same forward line.

Could end up being the Jack Billings of our forward line.

Sometime it's not the coach or the board or the car park attendants, sometimes it's just crap player attitude.

Should of held off giving the number 12 jumper to him too.

[Yorkeys]

Reasons for optimism:

We've played some excellent footy this year, and won 9 games, and lost a couple we dominated (Port in the wet), which is easy to forget.
Compared to the last few years our skills have gone up, we can consistently hit those shortpasses coming out of the backline.
Not so long ago, that was heart in mouth stuff

We have recruited well in the last couple of years, including good NGA and mid season draft picks.

We are a KP player down in defence, and we seem to have a perennial issue of undersized backmen. Wilkie cannot give 6-8cm away and win every week!

We have virtually been without our early draft picks Coffield and Clark this year. They are in the age bracket that should be hitting their prime in next 3 years. That is just very bad luck that should change next year

Our players want to stay and we have no /little internal strife....huge positive

Players want to come to the club....Amon for instance, possibly DeGoey or Taranto. A few years ago we couldn't attract anyone.

True, true. But....
doesn't it have that groundhog day feel about it to you?
Can't see the catalyst to break the cycle of not being good enough, not cracking in when it really matters, no really clever attacking ploys.
Seems so white bread going through the motions with no serious intent. Endless.

[bangaulegend]

Hard to be too optimistic when you see our team in free fall after a bright start . For sure there are positives but as a lot of posters have said the brand of footy we play is just not sustainable long term & it is just too hit & miss IMO. We need structure & a game plan that everyone is capable of delivering .We have played good quarters here & there but nothing solid, bad starts, catch up footy, dominate for a quarter & let teams back in fight like hell to scrap out a win or just get owned as has happened since the bye. Ryder has been a great player but time is starting to wear him down which is only natural , our defence has been solid even though under sized ,our mid field is just too pedestrian we don't have any explosiveness they have been ok , Ross Steele & Crouch have all given it a real crack Gresh up & down, Jones after missing the start of the season just hasn't been the same player. Marshall has had a handful of good games but not the player he was, Members very similar, Butler a shadow of the player 2 years ago , Higgins has been ok but has missed a few games for various reasons, . The Kids have been handy NWM looks like a real prospect ,Windy & Mitch very promising ,Max (King)looked liked he was going to be a world beater earlier in the year but looks like a defeated man ATM . DMAC before injured was very good ,Billings injured for most of start of the year IMO disappointing, Wood has been ok at times but not great. Battle & Wilkie have been amazing Jimmy handy, Paton a shadow of the player he was ,Dougs has struggled but has been ok . Clark & Coffield injury has just ruined their year but both haven't reached their potential yet. Sinclair far & away our best player & has continued on from last year . So where is the change going to come from I don't see our current list capable of pushing for a flag in the next 2 or 3 years unless we either recruit some genuine class midfielders & draft blokes to fill our deficiencies no more flankers .

[Banger9798]

Reasons for optimism:

We've played some excellent footy this year, and won 9 games, and lost a couple we dominated (Port in the wet), which is easy to forget.
Compared to the last few years our skills have gone up, we can consistently hit those shortpasses coming out of the backline.
Not so long ago, that was heart in mouth stuff

We have recruited well in the last couple of years, including good NGA and mid season draft picks.

We are a KP player down in defence, and we seem to have a perennial issue of undersized backmen. Wilkie cannot give 6-8cm away and win every week!

We have virtually been without our early draft picks Coffield and Clark this year. They are in the age bracket that should be hitting their prime in next 3 years. That is just very bad luck that should change next year

Our players want to stay and we have no /little internal strife....huge positive

Players want to come to the club....Amon for instance, possibly DeGoey or Taranto. A few years ago we couldn't attract anyone.

True, true. But....
doesn't it have that groundhog day feel about it to you?
Can't see the catalyst to break the cycle of not being good enough, not cracking in when it really matters, no really clever attacking ploys.
Seems so white bread going through the motions with no serious intent. Endless.

Yes, the ground hog day vibe is there.
But if we compare how we were feeling pre and post the bye about the team.
Pre Bye at 8 & 3 we thought we had a pretty good team, post bye having lost 4/5 we think we're ordinary and our previous bullishness was misplaced
Truth is somewhere in between .
I am personally still more optimistic than any time in the last 6 years, and think we are not that far away from being a consistently good side.
One or two players short and obviously some mental and structural issues to sort out
Our first half vs Freo was excellent...not sure what happened in the 3Q, but we got beaten around stoppage and their talls dominated a very undersized backline
Paton, Coffield and Clark in form would make a huge difference to this side.

[Killa]

Pick your first choice 22 (23)

Put their statistics alongside (age, height, weight and games played)

Then list those on our List not included in that 22 (23)

And see what you arrive at

Noting the Club has indicated it will review all players available as free agents to see if they would compliment our List and our objectives, will look to appropriately trade and will go to the Draft (which all Clubs will do)

After you have attended the foregoing challenge you may then be in a position to see why our window of opportunity is over the next 2 years, depending on who we can add to our List as established players of class

The addition of experience will compliment our youth, currently the 3 drafted ahead of 2022 and already “ best 22”

And we look for Coffield and Clark to enjoy better luck, both top 10 selections with class

It is our core, so KPP, where we lack resource - and some class out of the centre square

Currently our “best 22” includes some making up the numbers - and to give some idea where optimal is I include the likes of Webster and Ross in this category because Webster loses his feet just to easily and Ross can not run forward with the ball, stopping and propping just to much

And there are others in the same category

Plus Ryder’s age

We have a bit invested in Heath and Adams, particularly

Because this is where our deficiencies are most evident - along with another key forward

Leave the emotion aside and attend the analysis

The Club are realistic in their analysis - hence the commentary on the Coach and the football department

[Zed]

At Hawthorn, Ratten was the feel good assistant was a perfect foil to Clarko the strategic genius and at times harsh critic who cools deliver a fearsome rocket.

We don’t have a strategic genius in the coaches box nor anyone who can give the players a rocket when required

[bangaulegend]

Pick your first choice 22 (23)

Put their statistics alongside (age, height, weight and games played)

Then list those on our List not included in that 22 (23)

And see what you arrive at

Noting the Club has indicated it will review all players available as free agents to see if they would compliment our List and our objectives, will look to appropriately trade and will go to the Draft (which all Clubs will do)

After you have attended the foregoing challenge you may then be in a position to see why our window of opportunity is over the next 2 years, depending on who we can add to our List as established players of class

The addition of experience will compliment our youth, currently the 3 drafted ahead of 2022 and already “ best 22”

And we look for Coffield and Clark to enjoy better luck, both top 10 selections with class

It is our core, so KPP, where we lack resource - and some class out of the centre square

Currently our “best 22” includes some making up the numbers - and to give some idea where optimal is I include the likes of Webster and Ross in this category because Webster loses his feet just to easily and Ross can not run forward with the ball, stopping and propping just to much

And there are others in the same category

Plus Ryder’s age

We have a bit invested in Heath and Adams, particularly

Because this is where our deficiencies are most evident - along with another key forward

Leave the emotion aside and attend the analysis

The Club are realistic in their analysis - hence the commentary on the Coach and the football department

I think you put too much faith in the football department . When I actually see real change on & off the field I might be more sympathetic but ATM as one poster said "Ground Hog Day"

[Killa]

In the first instance, to attract available players from other Clubs you need a selling point

Quite frankly, our List as it was just a couple of years ago and having Seaford as HQ attracted no one

Now we are on a different trajectory - courtesy of the administration, the Coach and the football department and an improved List which has further potential

Some Clubs with equally poor on field performances had the selling points of “establishment clubs” playing at the MCG and afforded “block buster” games by the AFL

Now we offer the facilities we have, a stable administration with a highly respected Coach and a List which includes a core of very talented youth, starting with Clark, Coffield, Paton, King, Wanganeen-Milera, Windhager and Owen

What we do not have is Riewoldt, Kossi, Hayes, Dal Santo, Montagna et al allowing this youth to develop v with the cover and assistance of that experience

We went to State Leagues to conscript short term resources to fill the demographic hole on our List

Hayes started playing where?

The 3 kids we have introduced this year have been thrown straight into the cauldron - so in the mid field not eased into the 22

By way of comparison, now past 100 games, look at the development of Sinclair who started as an average forward flanker

And look at Steele after the Coach’s challenge to him

Plus Marshall off the Rookie List (from the VFL)

I do know as fact that the Coach expressed surprise at the lack of player development resource when he came to the Club (and noting he and Richardson are close)

And he put the challenge to the younger players

And, yes, I do have inside information

[tony74]

Player development has been an issue for years. We now have ( what I believe as well as many who have much greater knowledge than me ) one of the best in the business. Damian Carrol will be incredibly important to the future of our success. You may not see the results immediately but I think player development will be one of our key successes

[perfectionist]

Things could be a lot worse. Some d**khead could come into your aged care home coughing his lungs out but declare that he has the "right" not to wear a mask and therefore the right to infect who he wants, when he wants. Apparently, morons have the right to be a moron. This happened today.

[Waltzing St Kilda]

Player development has been an issue for years. We now have ( what I believe as well as many who have much greater knowledge than me ) one of the best in the business. Damian Carrol will be incredibly important to the future of our success. You may not see the results immediately but I think player development will be one of our key successes

Good to hear.

[Banger9798]

Things could be a lot worse. Some d**khead could come into your aged care home coughing his lungs out but declare that he has the "right" not to wear a mask and therefore the right to infect who he wants, when he wants. Apparently, morons have the right to be a moron. This happened today.

What a wanker

[Impatient Sainter]

If we trade in quality players there is a possibly there will be a slight trend upwards - but dont expect Rattens coaching to improve, he has completely maxed out in 2020.

[CURLY]

At Hawthorn, Ratten was the feel good assistant was a perfect foil to Clarko the strategic genius and at times harsh critic who cools deliver a fearsome rocket.

We don’t have a strategic genius in the coaches box nor anyone who can give the players a rocket when required

How do you know?

[cwrcyn]

Improvement?

King
Wanganeen-Milera
Windhager
Owens
Higgins
Clark
Coffield
Byrnes
Connolly
Sharman

All these guys can get better and most likey will

Who can we depend on for consistent output?

Marshall
Steele
Crouch
Ross
Webster
Wilkie
Howard (despite the naysayers)
Sinclair
Battle
Gresham
Hill (despite the naysayers)
Membrey

The inconsistent and the not-quite-there

Billings
Long
Paton
Highmore
Jones
Hayes


Little or no value going forward

Wood
Joyce
Leinert

Done

Geary
Hannebery
Kent
Campbell

The unknown and the unlikely

Adams
Bytel
Allison
Peris