Who's Good At Maths?

[Myron Gaines]

I love it how everyone thinks it’s only the coach,

BM I know that this is one of your favourite lines, but no matter how often you repeat it you know it is not the case.

You post a lot good stuff and so I do not know why you keep trotting it out.

Yup, he’s doing himself a disservice by constantly posting this line because he’s far better than that.

[samuraisaint]

I love it how everyone thinks it’s only the coach, and if we have a new coach all of a sudden our list with very few fit A Graders (if any) are going to start winning games of footy.

AR is part of the problem, not the only problem. But I think people think he IS the problem and without him, we would be successful. I’ve got news for you, as hard as it is to believe, there are many more issues than just the senior coach.

There’s a lot of cogs when it comes to being a successful team
Good players being the main thing, a good recruiter to get those good players, a good list Manager to keep those players, good coach to lead those players, good assistants to teach specific skills for those players, good medical staff to keep them on the park, good fitness staff to make them able to perform optimally and be prepared and conditioned for games, good welfare staff to make sure everyone’s wellbeing is fine.
And even more than that needs to be working to achieve results

Oh, and examples of Carlton and North
They have A Graders available

I don't want AR sacked during the season. And I don't think it is just down to the senior coach. But the recruiter is gone, the old list manager is gone, I think three of the assistant coaches finished last season.
For mine, if AR does go at the end of the season - and I am not sure he will, I think he is a strong chance to still coach us at the beginning of next season - the other key posts of Director of Coaching and our reserves coach have to go. I think the team manager would have to be looked at too after the China disaster, but that may not have been that person's fault.
A lot of the people who have not successfully led the rebuild have gone - including some of the selectors from last year.
I think that the club need to begin recruiting players who can have an immediate impact though, at the expense of recruiting and drafting project players all tge time who seem to come to us with injuries or are unable to train, etc.
FWIW I think his presser after the Geelong match was the best I have seen from AR in a very long time, and I was glad that he raised his concerns about what many see as inconsistencies with the way the game is adjudicated and the positive moves the club has made with regards to coaching players to minimise negative interpretations during matches.
Umpires are only human but that howler when Acres was pushed right in the back and then the Geelong player fell right on top of him and the Geelong player was awarded the free kick was a shocking mistake - we should have got a shot at goal for that - but these mistakes add up - especially in light of the officious umpiring we received the wrong end of the week before in Hobart.

[HighettMan]

I love it how everyone thinks it’s only the coach,

BM I know that this is one of your favourite lines, but no matter how often you repeat it you know it is not the case.

You post a lot good stuff and so I do not know why you keep trotting it out.

Everyone has thier favorite lines, what's your point.

The coach is going, we know that, what is more important now is the succession plan and how we transition to a new coach without disrupting and/or impacting the progresss needed in other crucial areas, mainly recruiiting AFL ready mids. Get the recruitment wrong we will implode. The selection of a coach that has coached a team in his own right is also what we will be targeting. FFS it won't be Robert Harvey. We are passed the development phase. We now have a list that is almost within stiking distance of playing finals, 'almost' being the important operative word. We can't afford to experiment with a untried coach with regards to where we are in our cycle. Untried coaches, cheap coaches, are for teams right at the very start of the rebuild cycle.

It's why I also say AFL ready mids. This list doesn't have 3 or 4 seasons to wait for us to develop mids. It will be a bust if we have to wait that long and then we will most certainly be right back at the start of a other rebuild.

The club isn't broke dispite the hysteria, it's being well run in many areas, we've had a lot go right and we've had a lot of bad luck with a significant injury list and to key structural players. It's given great opportunity to other players and we've uncovered some gems.


The mature age recruiting strategy has given an immediate ROI. Let's hope we can repeat the success the strategy delivered at last years trade period to target and recruit mature aged mids that can play round 1 2020.

The recruiting has to be mainly controlled by the club. We can't afford for a new coach to come in and reinvent the wheel. In any case I don't think AFL clubs allow that to happen as much in the modern era. The coach will be required to come in and play his or her role within the new structure that Simon started settting up last year.

[Ghost Like]

I agree with a lot of what you just wrote HM, recruitment both draft and trade is key, as is development for young players.

I disagree that we need a coach with senior AFL coaching experience. Whilst a Clarkson would be great, one like him will not be available.

We need to appreciate that the last 8 premierships and 14 of the last 15 were one by teams with an untried coach. 15 out of 15 if a particular football had bounced the way it normally would 9 out of 10 times.

So provided that coach has everything else in place, including their assistants, we most definitely can get a first timer, Rob Harvey, Blake Caracella, anyone with a plan, a commitment, an insight and an ability to inspire greatness.

[Yorkeys]

It's good to know the Club is not broke. I guess that reconciles with the constraint of having no choice of coach for the last two years because of the cost implications of change, how; different buckets of money? I bet there are several gun shy officials second guessing themselves like crazy about decisions on a 2020 coach, its a very, very, very important decision, clearly. I wonder who Richo would recommend. However I reckon there is plenty of talent out there (see accidental coaches Messers Shaw and Teague) and it would actually be hard to make a bad choice if the process, including selection committee, is sound. The most corrosive thing I see is the lack of decision, just letting Richo and the fans hang in the wind week after week. I suppose it could be because they honestly haven't decided on change yet, but boy the President and CEO are using all the time available before the time's up buzzer goes. No one is seriously arguing we can now make the 2019 finals are they? Mathematical possibility is code for we simply can't bring ourselves to part from Alan and we hope like crazy something amazing happens in regard to suddenly winning games.

[HighettMan]

I agree with a lot of what you just wrote HM, recruitment both draft and trade is key, as is development for young players.

I disagree that we need a coach with senior AFL coaching experience. Whilst a Clarkson would be great, one like him will not be available.

We need to appreciate that the last 8 premierships and 14 of the last 15 were one by teams with an untried coach. 15 out of 15 if a particular football had bounced the way it normally would 9 out of 10 times.

So provided that coach has everything else in place, including their assistants, we most definitely can get a first timer, Rob Harvey, Blake Caracella, anyone with a plan, a commitment, an insight and an ability to inspire greatness.

I didn't say a coach with AFL experience although it makes sense to find one that has, mainly becuase of the experience in non footy skill areas like media and knowing how intense the circus is.

It's been well known in the industry that clubs now are large organisations with usually 100+ employees and that coaches have to have had some experience coaching a team in thier own right. The Hird, Voss and Buckley experiments were the turning point. As I say it will be a huge advantage if it is AFL experience but clearly not necessar. The other evolution will be the move to trying coaches that coached AFL and failed thier first attempt and I think these will be Leppas, Voss and Bolton types. What do they have in common? All were passed the keys to clubs at the very start of the rebuild cycle so thats exaxtly when clubs can experiment with the untried because they really are puppets while the list is developing and getting games into young players. We also have evolved with how clubs view sacked coaches and all three mentioned will probably coach AFL again.

I think this will be the trend for getting experinced coaches built into the AFL system.

We are at the Voss, Leppa phase.

It wont be Harves FFS.

[HighettMan]

It's good to know the Club is not broke. I guess that reconciles with the constraint of having no choice of coach for the last two years because of the cost implications of change, how; different buckets of money? I bet there are several gun shy officials second guessing themselves like crazy about decisions on a 2020 coach, its a very, very, very important decision, clearly. I wonder who Richo would recommend. However I reckon there is plenty of talent out there (see accidental coaches Messers Shaw and Teague) and it would actually be hard to make a bad choice if the process, including selection committee, is sound. The most corrosive thing I see is the lack of decision, just letting Richo and the fans hang in the wind week after week. I suppose it could be because they honestly haven't decided on change yet, but boy the President and CEO are using all the time available before the time's up buzzer goes. No one is seriously arguing we can now make the 2019 finals are they? Mathematical possibility is code for we simply can't bring ourselves to part from Alan and we hope like crazy something amazing happens in regard to suddenly winning games.

Broke as in Broken, did not mean financially poor.

[Ghost Like]

I assumed when you said "untried coach" that only left coaches who have been tried.

[saintsRrising]

Untried coach. What does this mean?

Recent history would suggest that coaches:

- who have been appointed after a good level of experience is a valid way to proceed.

ie Bevo

- who are appointed without having that solid experience struggle

ie Voss, Hird

I am aware that by untried coach that you are meaning coaches who have coached at senior level before. As such history also says that this does necessarily go well even when they were Premiership Coaches.
ie Malthouse Pagan in their last gigs.

Whomever we pick needs to be at the top of their game with good experience. So with say Bevo and Clarko probably out of reach someone like Carecella would be a good pick IMO.

Our new coach needs to be someone who can make the most out of the players at his disposal.

Gubby and the Draft/Trade Period

This draft and trade period will be the first with Gubby being involved. Hopefully he can make a positive difference. We are going to need it as with no second and third round picks we are going into the draft with a lack of ammunition (for both drafting and or trading).

With the lack of picks, as well as need I envisage that the mature agers will again be the tactic for some of our late picks.

The lack of picks will also probably see that Saints try some trades of existing players in order to secure players of the type we need and/or some more early picks. We unfortunately do not have lot to offer and it may end up being like last year where we let Hickey go. Players lie Ross, Dunstan, Sinclair etc may all be offered up. One could see say a trade for Martin with GC who need experienced players more than kids. Someone like Ross could be a good fit for the GC.

Hill from Free may be gettable, but the downside then is that it may require a trade including our first rounder and I would love that pick to be used on a mid as there should be some good picks of such players available with our first round selection.

Backup ruck. Personally I am hoping that we just seek such a ruck with a late pick or rookie pick rather than limiting Marshall's development by gaining say Goldie.

FA. Not a lot on offer, and less so for us as cellar dwellers. UFA there is obviously Cogs, but I suspect that he would not consider us.

Trades: We went for Hannas and Kent last year. Both players with poor recent injury records who unfortunately maintained that with us.

Better Ball Users: Year after year the spiel from the club is that they are targeting this. However year after year we mainly seem to select players who are not good ball users. This costs us dearly. The club needs to truly focus on this. Too often I think our recruiter's eyes light up on players that have been passed over, most likely often for this reason, thinking that they have pounced on a slider.

[HighettMan]

Bevo and the 2016 flag are like Haleys Comet.

Plus Bevo coached a side in his own right, and quite successfully before joining the Dogs. Hird and Voss not so much and doubtful any club will rush to play with that experiment anytime soon.

Bevo is an anomaly though with regards to my point, it's highly unlikely anyone let alone the admin who hired him thought he was going to scratch out a flag with the list he inherited especially in the time he did it. He was being bought on for a rebuild and at the time the Dogs had only started thier full rebuild one year before us. A huge anomaly.

Caracella would be a huge gamble with our list. We don't need or rather wont get Clarko but we can't afford for someone that's not capable of hitting the ground running with the basic skill set of all the non football management stuff especially handling the media circus.

I'll be extremely surprised if it's a Caracella type or other coach that hasn't coached a team in his own right.

Scott
Voss
Lepp

These types...

[bigcarl]

What time is the press conference?

[B.M]

I keep trotting it out, because what I read on here about the role and influence of the coach, intrigues me.

I’ll put it in simple terms. Players win games.

I actually believe supporters think if we had Alistair Clarkson coaching, we’d be a top team. I’m telling you, A.Clarkson Coaches our team this year, we’d be in a similar situation to his average team

Did A.Clarkson out coach Richo when we beat them this year?

How did we beat Hawthorn if A. Clarkson was their coach.

[B.M]

I played footy for many years, and coach now.

Had good and bad coaches, my performance was generally the same. I was as good as my ability allowed, and whilst I learned some things from some coaches, in the heat of battle where a contest is to be won, I did not, at any moment give any thought to what any of my coaches said or what they would be think. In simple terms, I just attacked the footy, tried to use the best option, or defended if I didn’t win the ball. It’s a simple game, really.

As a coach
I absolutely know, that I have some impact on my teams performance, but the ability of the players and that of the opposition has a much bigger influence on results.

I’ll tell you right now
Norm Smith, Ron Barassi, David Parkin and Denis Pagan combined would struggle with the current team we are putting on the park.

Really, Geelong should have beaten us by 10-15 goals when you take into account the talent difference between the two teams

[SAINT-LEE]

Yes, it's now impossible to finish 15th. We will definitely finish 16th with 6 wins and 10 straight losses.

St Kilda can still finish 17th and draft pick No2 a super gun midfielder.
Carlton is capable of 3 more wins and Melbourne only need one more.

Love it.....

[Ghost Like]

I think it's the use of the word "everyone" not the fact you "keep trotting it out". You make some very good points but by using the word "everyone" it really seems like yours is the only point of view & only you see the light.

I'm guessing B isn't for Bashful & M for Modest. This is fine because a lot of what you say is interesting and worth reading, certainly makes me think.

[saintsRrising]

I keep trotting it out, because what I read on here about the role and influence of the coach, intrigues me.

I’ll put it in simple terms. Players win games.

I actually believe supporters think if we had Alistair Clarkson coaching, we’d be a top team. I’m telling you, A.Clarkson Coaches our team this year, we’d be in a similar situation to his average team

Did A.Clarkson out coach Richo when we beat them this year?

How did we beat Hawthorn if A. Clarkson was their coach.

See you prove my point entirely.

It is much better IMO when you post your opinion as above......rather than say everyone is saying something that everyone is in fact not stating.

Judging a team, player or coach on one game is pretty meaningless. Though it that one game is the GF it can of course be the exception.


PS:

FWIW if Clarko were coaching us I would believe that we would be a better team. Not a top team but a better team. Like you I believe we have talent deficiencies in our list.

If Clarko was appointed it may well make it easier to attract better talent though.

[B.M]

I reckon I could safely say that everyone thinks AR should be sacked and is the main reason for our lowly performance.

I do read a lot of comments that support this view, I’m only going by what I read

[Myron Gaines]

I reckon I could safely say that everyone thinks AR should be sacked and is the main reason for our lowly performance.

I do read a lot of comments that support this view, I’m only going by what I read

Yup but it needs some context. I’m not judging on one season. He’s had 120 games & 6 seasons to build a brand. He’s got nothing to show for it. Started his coaching career in year 1 with 4 wins & he has gone full circle to have the club around the same mark in year 6 & needing another rebuild. He’s utterly failed. The recruiter got the bullet. The assistants got the bullet. Richo & Sexton are what’s remaining of the problem.

[suss]

Interesting article and podcast on the status of things ...

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/oh-whe ... 527gp.html

[BarryGrogan]

The selection of a coach that has coached a team in his own right is also what we will be targeting. FFS it won't be Robert Harvey. We are passed the development phase. We now have a list that is almost within stiking distance of playing finals, 'almost' being the important operative word. We can't afford to experiment with a untried coach with regards to where we are in our cycle. Untried coaches, cheap coaches, are for teams right at the very start of the rebuild cycle.

Who was the last 'tried' coach to win a flag?

[BarryGrogan]

I keep trotting it out, because what I read on here about the role and influence of the coach, intrigues me.

I’ll put it in simple terms. Players win games.

I actually believe supporters think if we had Alistair Clarkson coaching, we’d be a top team. I’m telling you, A.Clarkson Coaches our team this year, we’d be in a similar situation to his average team

Did A.Clarkson out coach Richo when we beat them this year?

How did we beat Hawthorn if A. Clarkson was their coach.

See you prove my point entirely.

It is much better IMO when you post your opinion as above......rather than say everyone is saying something that everyone is in fact not stating.

Judging a team, player or coach on one game is pretty meaningless. Though it that one game is the GF it can of course be the exception.


PS:

FWIW if Clarko were coaching us I would believe that we would be a better team. Not a top team but a better team. Like you I believe we have talent deficiencies in our list.

If Clarko was appointed it may well make it easier to attract better talent though.

I'm certain that the talent at Hawthorn would not look even half as good as they if Cho coached them.

And I'm certain if Clarko had control of our current list for 6 years, they'd be massively better performed as a team and as individuals also.


To suggest leaders of organisations have no effect on the performance, development and attitude of their staff is just absolute folly.

[saintsRrising]

The selection of a coach that has coached a team in his own right is also what we will be targeting. FFS it won't be Robert Harvey. We are passed the development phase. We now have a list that is almost within stiking distance of playing finals, 'almost' being the important operative word. We can't afford to experiment with a untried coach with regards to where we are in our cycle. Untried coaches, cheap coaches, are for teams right at the very start of the rebuild cycle.

Who was the last 'tried' coach to win a flag?

Well if a "tried" coach is a head coach at a new club, from a quick look at previous coaches, Malthouse in 2010. Though his next stint as a tried t was all downhill.

Matthews with his threepeat in 2001-3

Blight in 97/98. Though his last stint was memorable for all the wrong reasons!

Joyce* in 91. He filled as interim coach when Jeans was ill and won a flag. Stood down and then came back to win again in 91 at the same club..

Jeans in 83 86 89

Barassi in 75 77 (at North)

(Apologies if I missed anyone and I did not bother going back any earlier)

So that gives a lot of in between flags to the "untried coaches".


* Tried coach at the same club.

[Moods]

I played footy for many years, and coach now.

Had good and bad coaches, my performance was generally the same. I was as good as my ability allowed, and whilst I learned some things from some coaches, in the heat of battle where a contest is to be won, I did not, at any moment give any thought to what any of my coaches said or what they would be think. In simple terms, I just attacked the footy, tried to use the best option, or defended if I didn’t win the ball. It’s a simple game, really.

As a coach
I absolutely know, that I have some impact on my teams performance, but the ability of the players and that of the opposition has a much bigger influence on results.

I’ll tell you right now
Norm Smith, Ron Barassi, David Parkin and Denis Pagan combined would struggle with the current team we are putting on the park.

Really, Geelong should have beaten us by 10-15 goals when you take into account the talent difference between the two teams

I'm not sure anyone is delusional enough to think that we'd be challenging for the top 4 if Clarko was in charge. And absolutely, gun players make the world of difference. We have few if any so you're right there. But a gun coach teaches structures, set-ups, the correct way to play footy. My Hawks loving mate who goes every week constantly tells me that Clarko is their #1 asset. If the team if performing poorly at quarter time he will invariably be able to identify the problem and fix the problem. He claims he's more valuable than any player. I see it the same way as well. When we were flying in 09 we had a game plan and a system that no one could decipher. Do you honestly believe that if say GT was still coaching that we would have had a season like we did? Because I'm absolutely certain we wouldn't have. And GT admitted that himself. The Doggies in 2016 developed a handball strategy with a team that let's face it, had very few genuine stars. Ppl say they fluked it, maybe they did but who cares?

And as for your last line - I agree the cats should have won by 10-15 goals. Richo was happy to be in the game and we closed shop at halftime. Now all the master scribes are calling it a brave effort. We didn't even try to win the game. We sucked up time, chipped it around amongst ourselves and flooded the backline. And the Cats played very poorly (which does happen on occasions to every team)

Also Richo was directly responsible or had a big say in some of the players we drafted and traded. So he is accountable for that. the balls up of McCartin will haunt us for year and was an unforgiveable error. The fact that we're crying out for some decent mids but they have kept drafting either small fwds or half back flankers is also bewildering. We trade McEvoy but now we're up to our ears in trade talks for ruckmen? What a mess

[BarryGrogan]

The selection of a coach that has coached a team in his own right is also what we will be targeting. FFS it won't be Robert Harvey. We are passed the development phase. We now have a list that is almost within stiking distance of playing finals, 'almost' being the important operative word. We can't afford to experiment with a untried coach with regards to where we are in our cycle. Untried coaches, cheap coaches, are for teams right at the very start of the rebuild cycle.

Who was the last 'tried' coach to win a flag?

Well if a "tried" coach is a head coach at a new club, from a quick look at previous coaches, Malthouse in 2010. Though his next stint as a tried t was all downhill.

Matthews with his threepeat in 2001-3

Blight in 97/98. Though his last stint was memorable for all the wrong reasons!

Joyce* in 91. He filled as interim coach when Jeans was ill and won a flag. Stood down and then came back to win again in 91 at the same club..

Jeans in 83 86 89

Barassi in 75 77 (at North)

(Apologies if I missed anyone and I did not bother going back any earlier)

So that gives a lot on in between flags to the "untried coaches".


* Tried coach at the same club.

Exactly.

Unless you poach a premiership coach, history tells us that the 'experienced coach' is very overrated.

[SaintPav]

Interesting article and podcast on the status of things ...

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/afl/oh-whe ... 527gp.html

Sounds fair to me.