[i]When Ross Was Boss - The Recruiter[/i]

[Joffa Burns]

The saints would have recruited Rioli and Darling if I had had any say in recruitment at the Saints.

It was as obvious as dog's balls and just shows how incompetent Tosser Lyin was.

If I had any say in recruiting we would have taken Judd @ #2 & Bartel @ #5 in 2001 and not swapped #17 for Heath Black and would have grabbed James Kelly with that pick.
Instead of Josh Houlihan I would have taken Dane Swan @ #49 and as much as I liked Goose I'd have secured Stevie J @ #21.

Judd, Bartel, Kelly, Swan & Stevie J on top of our group from 2002 - 2012 = 6 x Premierships.

It's pretty easy being captain hindsight though

[rodgerfox]

... but the leadership void created by Lyon has stifled their development.

Ross Lyon left in 2011. There have been coaches, presidents, and countless board members and leaders at the club (including a dominant figure who was captain for 5 more years after Lyon departed). What was stopping them all from any succession planning? The worst thing that happened after Watters was sacked was that the St Kilda board forgot about any lessons learnt from the mistakes of messiah worshipping and also forgot to plan...for life after Riewoldt. They are all as much to blame for the so called leadership void as is Lyon

I don't care who's fault it is.

But the fact remains we have a big leadership vacuum and are devoid of a solid senior group.

That stems from the fact that only Armitage and Steven came through the ranks during that time.

It's important to work out how the club let it happen. If you can't handle the truth and can't recognise why those mistakes were made then you won't learn from them will you? Scott Watters was booted out of this club because he did not adhere to the messiah worshopping. First it was too much power in the hands of the coach and then that shifetd....but it was self interest and selfishness again rather than the long term interests of the young playing group. There was too much power imho in the hands of a few senior players.

Watters knew that the playing group pined for Tosser and had issues when it came to leadership and the self belief to 'go again' and aim for the ultimate prize. He wanted to look forward but the senior playing group (led by the captain) were fixated on that bloody rear vision mirror! After Watters was sacked the leadership needed to be spread between various coaches, administrators and a larger playing group. Instead we had further concentration of power left with that senior group. No wonder there is a vaccuum after Roo and Joey retired.

Richo seems to me to be devoid of any leadership skills and unable to empower the playing group. Geary has been thrown under a bus and set up for failure. Hopefully our players, coaches and admin will move forward and unite without the ghosts from the recent past meddling in the current affairs of the club

I think you're over complicating it a bit.

Lyon neglected development, and seized control over our recruitment and list management.

He f***ed it up bad.

I think we can agree that that is a fact.


I would say that there is really only ONE known common denominator of every single premiership team that has stood the test of time for 100 years of football - and that is a quality senior group.

Solid, reliable, consistent senior players.

We don't have that. That's why we suck.

We don't have that because Lyon neglected development, and our subsequent rebuild took place during compromised drafts.

The politics you refer to is largely irrelevant really.

[Scollop]

..."Politics is irrelevant"

[rodgerfox]

..."Politics is irrelevant"

In the context of this thread it is.

[Scollop]

I disagree. Politics is 'never' irrelevant

[rodgerfox]

..."Politics is irrelevant"

Who are you quoting by the way?

[Scollop]

..."Politics is irrelevant"

Who are you quoting by the way?

"The politics you refer to is largely irrelevant really."

Is that better

[rodgerfox]

..."Politics is irrelevant"

Who are you quoting by the way?

"The politics you refer to is largely irrelevant really."

Is that better

Well yes.

It's incredibly confusing and misleading using quotation marks if you're not actually quoting someone.

[Scollop]

"incredibly confusing"

[rodgerfox]

"incredibly confusing"

?

[saynta]

The saints would have recruited Rioli and Darling if I had had any say in recruitment at the Saints.

It was as obvious as dog's balls and just shows how incompetent Tosser Lyin was.

If I had any say in recruiting we would have taken Judd @ #2 & Bartel @ #5 in 2001 and not swapped #17 for Heath Black and would have grabbed James Kelly with that pick.
Instead of Josh Houlihan I would have taken Dane Swan @ #49 and as much as I liked Goose I'd have secured Stevie J @ #21.

Judd, Bartel, Kelly, Swan & Stevie J on top of our group from 2002 - 2012 = 6 x Premierships.

It's pretty easy being captain hindsight though

Yours maybe hindsight. Mine's not. Said so at the time when we overlooked Darling and Rioli, and have maintained that line ever since. Blind Freddy would have made those selection and I could never understand why we didn't go with them

Now I understand. f****** Ross the flosser tosser overruled our selection guy.

Oh, and I would have selected Judd, which was another obvious f*** up at the time.

[Joffa Burns]

I think you're over complicating it a bit.

Lyon neglected development, and seized control over our recruitment and list management.

He f***ed it up bad.

I think we can agree that that is a fact.


I would say that there is really only ONE known common denominator of every single premiership team that has stood the test of time for 100 years of football - and that is a quality senior group.

Solid, reliable, consistent senior players.

We don't have that. That's why we suck.

We don't have that because Lyon neglected development, and our subsequent rebuild took place during compromised drafts.

The politics you refer to is largely irrelevant really.

Respectfully Rodger I believe you are over simplifying the root cause.

If the report is correct, we have Lyon pushing for the Dempster/ Schnieder trade and wanting Cripps & McEvoy over Darling & Rioli. Cripps and McEvoy may not be Darling and Rioli but they were hardly busts and Schnieder & Dempster go down in history as one of the best ever saints trades IMO.

I think Cyril went @ #10 and Darling in the 20's so plenty of other clubs had picks and did not take these two. A bigger question should have been how did none of the top 10 picks identify Dangerfield.

Lyon caused damage by not developing players and it was a costly mistake, also the recruiting of Lovett was a disaster, but I struggle to think this was the primary cause of our demise. Was our Board, Football Management, Administration etc so poor that Lyon controlled all football related decisions?

Keep in mind our picks in the Lyon era were mid to high teens not top 5 like we are enjoying (or enduring) now.

Was the last 7 seasons not enough time to undo the damage?
Why do we feel this now, was this purported to be an issue when we set about the re-build and 5 year plan in 2013?

I believe Ross in isolation is a contributing factor but over played by many of the above posts.
I also not and agree compromised drafts have hurt clubs who did not have the recruiting talent team to look outside the traditional recruitment grounds.

[rodgerfox]

Respectfully Rodger I believe you are over simplifying the root cause.

If the report is correct, we have Lyon pushing for the Dempster/ Schnieder trade and wanting Cripps & McEvoy over Darling & Rioli. Cripps and McEvoy may not be Darling and Rioli but they were hardly busts and Schnieder & Dempster go down in history as one of the best ever saints trades IMO.

I think Cyril went @ #10 and Darling in the 20's so plenty of other clubs had picks and did not take these two. A bigger question should have been how did none of the top 10 picks identify Dangerfield.

Lyon caused damage by not developing players and it was a costly mistake, also the recruiting of Lovett was a disaster, but I struggle to think this was the primary cause of our demise. Was our Board, Football Management, Administration etc so poor that Lyon controlled all football related decisions?

Keep in mind our picks in the Lyon era were mid to high teens not top 5 like we are enjoying (or enduring) now.

Was the last 7 seasons not enough time to undo the damage?
Why do we feel this now, was this purported to be an issue when we set about the re-build and 5 year plan in 2013?

I believe Ross in isolation is a contributing factor but over played by many of the above posts.
I also not and agree compromised drafts have hurt clubs who did not have the recruiting talent team to look outside the traditional recruitment grounds.

I don't know what the root cause was.

But I'm certain, and have been crapping on about it for ages, that the recruiting and development during the Lyon era is why we're rubbish now.

Unfortunately, due to the compromised drafts on the back of it, we were unable to do much about it.

Which left us with a gross lack of talent. Which, we had no choice to address by recruiting kids through the draft from 2014 onwards. I think we've done very well since then - however we've been left with a list devoid of senior players as a result.

People wonder why Brown gets a game. It's obvious why.

Young guys develop totally differently when surrounded by senior guys doing the heavy lifting. It's just a fact.


The root cause of why the recruiting and development during the Lyon was so putrid is up for debate. I haven't weighed into it, because aside from the article in the OP I have no idea.

But I'm certain that the root cause of our current list issues is the recruiting and development during the Lyon era, and the compromised drafts that followed it.

[Moods]

Respectfully Rodger I believe you are over simplifying the root cause.

If the report is correct, we have Lyon pushing for the Dempster/ Schnieder trade and wanting Cripps & McEvoy over Darling & Rioli. Cripps and McEvoy may not be Darling and Rioli but they were hardly busts and Schnieder & Dempster go down in history as one of the best ever saints trades IMO.

I think Cyril went @ #10 and Darling in the 20's so plenty of other clubs had picks and did not take these two. A bigger question should have been how did none of the top 10 picks identify Dangerfield.

Lyon caused damage by not developing players and it was a costly mistake, also the recruiting of Lovett was a disaster, but I struggle to think this was the primary cause of our demise. Was our Board, Football Management, Administration etc so poor that Lyon controlled all football related decisions?

Keep in mind our picks in the Lyon era were mid to high teens not top 5 like we are enjoying (or enduring) now.

Was the last 7 seasons not enough time to undo the damage?
Why do we feel this now, was this purported to be an issue when we set about the re-build and 5 year plan in 2013?

I believe Ross in isolation is a contributing factor but over played by many of the above posts.
I also not and agree compromised drafts have hurt clubs who did not have the recruiting talent team to look outside the traditional recruitment grounds.

I don't know what the root cause was.

But I'm certain, and have been crapping on about it for ages, that the recruiting and development during the Lyon era is why we're rubbish now.

Unfortunately, due to the compromised drafts on the back of it, we were unable to do much about it.

Which left us with a gross lack of talent. Which, we had no choice to address by recruiting kids through the draft from 2014 onwards. I think we've done very well since then - however we've been left with a list devoid of senior players as a result.

People wonder why Brown gets a game. It's obvious why.

Young guys develop totally differently when surrounded by senior guys doing the heavy lifting. It's just a fact.


The root cause of why the recruiting and development during the Lyon was so putrid is up for debate. I haven't weighed into it, because aside from the article in the OP I have no idea.

But I'm certain that the root cause of our current list issues is the recruiting and development during the Lyon era, and the compromised drafts that followed it.

So the root cause of our problems is blamed on a bloke who left 7 years ago?? We wre terrible in 2012,13,14. Even with compromised drafts how come we didn't draft at least one superstar in that time? Is that Lyon's fault as well? How long do we keep blaming him for? It's obvious that he had too much control (and I was a big Lyon Fan) As far as I'm concerned all that says is how poorly we were run. I have no idea how the hawks were/are set up, but I bet Clarko doesn't get that sort of say in drafting. I know he insisted on Dew but I think his recruiters do most of the recruiting and drafting. I say the reason we have been average for the following 5 years after he left could be blamed on Lyon in PART. But surely we've had enough time to drag ourselves out of the malaise and find some decent players? And develop them!

John Peake sounds like the most astute judge of a footballer ever. What's he doing now? Surely making millions consulting for AFL clubs telling them who to draft? No doubt there's truth to what he says, but it also looks like every stuff up we made he was against, and any half decent footballer drafted he's taking credit for.

[rodgerfox]

Respectfully Rodger I believe you are over simplifying the root cause.

If the report is correct, we have Lyon pushing for the Dempster/ Schnieder trade and wanting Cripps & McEvoy over Darling & Rioli. Cripps and McEvoy may not be Darling and Rioli but they were hardly busts and Schnieder & Dempster go down in history as one of the best ever saints trades IMO.

I think Cyril went @ #10 and Darling in the 20's so plenty of other clubs had picks and did not take these two. A bigger question should have been how did none of the top 10 picks identify Dangerfield.

Lyon caused damage by not developing players and it was a costly mistake, also the recruiting of Lovett was a disaster, but I struggle to think this was the primary cause of our demise. Was our Board, Football Management, Administration etc so poor that Lyon controlled all football related decisions?

Keep in mind our picks in the Lyon era were mid to high teens not top 5 like we are enjoying (or enduring) now.

Was the last 7 seasons not enough time to undo the damage?
Why do we feel this now, was this purported to be an issue when we set about the re-build and 5 year plan in 2013?

I believe Ross in isolation is a contributing factor but over played by many of the above posts.
I also not and agree compromised drafts have hurt clubs who did not have the recruiting talent team to look outside the traditional recruitment grounds.

I don't know what the root cause was.

But I'm certain, and have been crapping on about it for ages, that the recruiting and development during the Lyon era is why we're rubbish now.

Unfortunately, due to the compromised drafts on the back of it, we were unable to do much about it.

Which left us with a gross lack of talent. Which, we had no choice to address by recruiting kids through the draft from 2014 onwards. I think we've done very well since then - however we've been left with a list devoid of senior players as a result.

People wonder why Brown gets a game. It's obvious why.

Young guys develop totally differently when surrounded by senior guys doing the heavy lifting. It's just a fact.


The root cause of why the recruiting and development during the Lyon was so putrid is up for debate. I haven't weighed into it, because aside from the article in the OP I have no idea.

But I'm certain that the root cause of our current list issues is the recruiting and development during the Lyon era, and the compromised drafts that followed it.

So the root cause of our problems is blamed on a bloke who left 7 years ago??

Are you asking me that? Or telling me?

Because that's clearly not what I said.

[hayes66]

John Peake sounds like the most astute judge of a footballer ever. What's he doing now? Surely making millions consulting for AFL clubs telling them who to draft? No doubt there's truth to what he says, but it also looks like every stuff up we made he was against, and any half decent footballer drafted he's taking credit for.

With all due respects I didn’t read it that way at all.
What stuff ups does he claim he was against?
He said he sleeps easy with the McEvoy selection.
He credits Lyon for the Dempster/Schneider trade.
He takes credit yes for Lynch (Who everyone hated) and Steven.
I would think that is fair enough.
He also says Drain like Ray. Who was good for us.
What he was against was the trading for Brad Fisher.
I understand if you didn’t listen to his SEN interview but in that he credits Jason Taylor for the Steven selection.
I understand you may not rate Peake or have a hatred against him and that maybe fair enough. I don’t know but I do think your negative feelings for him have effected for objectivity and ability to read the article accurately.

[Joffa Burns]

Respectfully Rodger I believe you are over simplifying the root cause.

If the report is correct, we have Lyon pushing for the Dempster/ Schnieder trade and wanting Cripps & McEvoy over Darling & Rioli. Cripps and McEvoy may not be Darling and Rioli but they were hardly busts and Schnieder & Dempster go down in history as one of the best ever saints trades IMO.

I think Cyril went @ #10 and Darling in the 20's so plenty of other clubs had picks and did not take these two. A bigger question should have been how did none of the top 10 picks identify Dangerfield.

Lyon caused damage by not developing players and it was a costly mistake, also the recruiting of Lovett was a disaster, but I struggle to think this was the primary cause of our demise. Was our Board, Football Management, Administration etc so poor that Lyon controlled all football related decisions?

Keep in mind our picks in the Lyon era were mid to high teens not top 5 like we are enjoying (or enduring) now.

Was the last 7 seasons not enough time to undo the damage?
Why do we feel this now, was this purported to be an issue when we set about the re-build and 5 year plan in 2013?

I believe Ross in isolation is a contributing factor but over played by many of the above posts.
I also not and agree compromised drafts have hurt clubs who did not have the recruiting talent team to look outside the traditional recruitment grounds.

I don't know what the root cause was.

But I'm certain, and have been crapping on about it for ages, that the recruiting and development during the Lyon era is why we're rubbish now.

Unfortunately, due to the compromised drafts on the back of it, we were unable to do much about it.

Which left us with a gross lack of talent. Which, we had no choice to address by recruiting kids through the draft from 2014 onwards. I think we've done very well since then - however we've been left with a list devoid of senior players as a result.

People wonder why Brown gets a game. It's obvious why.

Young guys develop totally differently when surrounded by senior guys doing the heavy lifting. It's just a fact.


The root cause of why the recruiting and development during the Lyon was so putrid is up for debate. I haven't weighed into it, because aside from the article in the OP I have no idea.

But I'm certain that the root cause of our current list issues is the recruiting and development during the Lyon era, and the compromised drafts that followed it.

So the root cause of our problems is blamed on a bloke who left 7 years ago??

Are you asking me that? Or telling me?

Because that's clearly not what I said.

To be fair to Moods Rodger, it does read as if that is your opinion.

[rodgerfox]

Perhaps I haven't articulated my point we'll enough. Or, my points have been missed amongst the usual 'black or white' arguments on here.

I've been saying for years that Lyon's inability and/or refusal to blood and develop youth was a mistake, and is hurting us badly now.

I have zero doubt about it.

But to clarify my point, I'll cut and paste what I've already said in this thread....

"I don't know what the root cause was."

"The root cause of why the recruiting and development during the Lyon was so putrid is up for debate. I haven't weighed into it, because aside from the article in the OP I have no idea."

"the recruiting and development during the Lyon era, and the compromised drafts that followed it."

"Unfortunately, due to the compromised drafts on the back of it, we were unable to do much about it."

"the recruiting and development during the Lyon era is why we're rubbish now."

"I don't care who's fault it is...."

"That stems from the fact that only Armitage and Steven came through the ranks during that time."



That's a fair way from 'it's all Lyons fault'.

[hayes66]

Regards only Steven and Armitage only came through it that time.
Can I ask for clarification?
I actually assess that period a little differently. I believe these players came through that time
McEvoy(Dual premiership ruckman), Steven (4 time B&F) Hutchings (Premiership player), Cripps (Premiership player), Stanley (Inconsistent ruckman for a finals time)
I concede only Armitage and Steven are at St Kilda but I just don’t believe from 2007 to 2010 Recruiting of young players were that bad. Especially when you consider the picks we had.

[hayes66]

Sorry and Lynch ( A leading player at a team who played in a Grand Final)

[skeptic]

Regards only Steven and Armitage only came through it that time.
Can I ask for clarification?
I actually assess that period a little differently. I believe these players came through that time
McEvoy(Dual premiership ruckman), Steven (4 time B&F) Hutchings (Premiership player), Cripps (Premiership player), Stanley (Inconsistent ruckman for a finals time)
I concede only Armitage and Steven are at St Kilda but I just don’t believe from 2007 to 2010 Recruiting of young players were that bad. Especially when you consider the picks we had.

Deserves to be reread

[ace]

Pillar 5 Can the guy hit a target with disposal by foot and hand, kick accurately from a set shot or open play.
This seems to have been overlooked and may be part of the reason the club is where it is.

[ace]

Pillar 5 Can the guy hit a target with disposal by foot and hand, kick accurately from a set shot or open play.
This seems to have been overlooked and may be part of the reason the club is where it is.

[ace]

I would have Ross back as coach any day ahead of any coaches we have had since.

[hayes66]

Pillar 5 can a guy hit a target etc.

If I am interrupting the Pillars correctly I think you’ll find that comes under Pillar 1.
Can he play?