16 or so wins

[Sanctorum]

Ahhhh...optimism - how could one ever be a True Saints Supporter without being optimistic, "overly" optimistic even.........the difference this time is that there are strong grounds for this belief in 2017. We do in fact have a team that is well balanced right across the various levels with real talent. So now it is up to the coaching staff to get the players to develop a successful game plan and to believe that they can beat the best in the competition, week in, week out. I happen to believe that they will do exactly that!

[SaintPav]

Thomo made a joke about ruckman and media spun it that he didn't rate them.

He nearly got Cox to the club

Not sure what you mean about Lyon and defenders but it's untrue

You rate Kosi better than Roo?

You are either a troll or just take taking the piss

"nearly" getting Cox is meaningless, facts are that Thomas went into many games without a recognised ruckman, and that includes Kosi who IMHO would have thrived as a key forward in any team other than St Kilda.

Lyon's modus operandi at both St Kilda and Fremantle has been to work with existing players developed by his predecessors, and apart from the ever reliable but under-sized Max Hudghton (who he scorned in the 2009 GF) he did not have, nor recruit or develop, a big gun defender, at both clubs...unless you are referring to the hapless Dawson.

Roo is an elite player, and a phenomenal athlete - but on the big stage he far too often choked in front of goals, viz the 2009 and 2010 Grand Finals.

You are welcome to your opinions, and I like to think I'm entitled to mine, without being subjected to slander for expressing them!

Thomo said that he didn't rate lumbering and innefective ruckman which is different to not rating ruckman.

Most of what you have written is incorrect which I can't be bothered correcting and doesn't deserve comment.

You are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your own facts.

[stevie]

Rd 19 v Port will depend on their form at the time so call that one 50/50.

Mind you, if we are undefeated at that stage and smashing teams each week then we will win lol

[bigcarl]

With 14 games at Etihad Stadium which are in reality all Home games, plus 2 at the MCG against Melbourne and Richmond, a total of 16 wins is most certainly achievable. You can also add the Round 6 match against Hawtorn in Tasmania as a likely win, as the Saints almost did in 2016 if it wasn't for a poor umpiring decision.

The 2017 Saints lineup should be a vastly superior team to 2016, especially in defence with the addition of Brown at FB and Carlisle at CHB. They will make a huge difference, mark my words!

At last we have a senior coach that rates both Ruckmen and Key Defenders, because Grant Thomas didn't rate having a top ruckman in his sides, and Lyon obviously didn't rate having top key defenders in his sides, nor the inclination to develop any.

There is also considerable improvement going to come from the midfield division, with Billings, Acres and Dunstan to come of age following break-out seasons from Ross and Gresham, supporting Jack Steven and Armitage.

The depth of St Kilda's midfield is the best it has ever been - to the players already mentioned you can add Minchington, Savage, Newnes, Weller, Jack Steele, Koby Stevens, Montagna, Lonie, Sinclair, Wright who are all either emerging or proven on-ballers. If Freeman manages to get his hamstrings working as they should that will give even more options, and we have yet to find out if Rice can get to the top level.

Mhe forward set up is equally impressive, and if Paddy McCartin can keep his head away from the firing line he should bag at least 60-70 goals. He has Membrey and Bruce as support, both are gun forwards.

And then there is old Nick - my mates will tell you that I campaigned for years to have him traded as I always considered Koschitske as a much better key forward. It is arguable that Nick Riewoldt had his best season yet in 2016 - certainly from a team perspective he contributed in ways not seen before, and I fully expect that he will continue to develop in the role of swingman, and provide that X-Factor that will put the Saints into serious finals contention in 2017.

My predictions for 2017:

Round 1: Melbourne ES - WIN
Round 2: WCE - DS - LOSS
Round 3: Lions - ES - WIN
Round 4: Collingwood - ES - WIN
Round 5: Geelong - ES - WIN
Round 6: Hawthorn - US - WIN
Round 7: GWS - ES - WIN
Round 8: Carlton - ES - WIN
Round 9: Sydney - ES - WIN
Round 10: WB - ES - WIN
Round 11: BYE
Round 12: Adelaide - AO - LOSS
Round 13: North Melbourne - ES - WIN
Round 14: Gold Coast - ES - WIN
Round 15: Fremantle - DS - LOSS - but that depends on Freo's form at the time
Round 16: Richmond - ES - WIN
Round 17: Essendon - ES - WIN
Round 18: Sydney - SCG - LOSS
Round 19: Port Adelaide - LOSS
Round 20: WCE - ES - WIN
Round 21: Melbourne - MCG - WIN
Round 22: North Melbourne - ES - WIN
Round 23: Richmond - MCG - WIN

I imagine that the Football department at St Kilda will have in mind a similar score card for next year, and will be working hard to make that happen.

Season 2017 can't come soon enough!!

Riewoldt, no longer feeling the pressure of needing to kick us a winning score every week. is the icing on the cake. There's no other club that can afford to use a key forward of his calibre in an onball role.

Even at this stage of his career wing is his best position. The bloke just loves to run.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if we give the premiership a good shake next season. If we're going to do it it needs to be while Rooey is still near his best ... and he is.

[saintspremiers]

Scrotum - expecting us to win all Jihad games is fanciful.

And it's not a farking draw it's a FIXture. Eastern would slap you alls!

[Moods]

Other clubs will improve as well. I think these may be closer to us next year:
Bluescum, Dees, Bombers
These will deteriorate:
Filth, Cats, Dawks, Norf, Hardwick's Hobos
Those clubs are deluded.
Therefore we should win at least 12.
Having 10 of the first 12 at ES is a bonus, but geepers we have to get better interstate.

How do you figure that carlton will be better next year? I reckon they'll be worse now that the honeymoon of Bolton is over. Their 2nd half of the year was more reflective of where they are at. Not sure Bombers should worry us either.

Why will Cats go backwards? Because Enright retired? I don't rate them particularly and thought their end of season position on the ladder flattered them, but I can't see how much has changed personnel wise?

We will do well to win 12 games again. But we should be able to manage it as long as Carlisle stays healthy and Brown holds his position at FB allowing Dempster to play third man up.

We need Bruce to take another step up forward, and McCartin to get on the park. With natural development of our mids we should be very competitive again, upsetting a couple of the higher fancied teams like we did this year.

[Johnny Member]

10 wins will be a good effort next year 2018 will be our year

I think you're right.


6 interstate trips hurt, and with 5 new guys in the starting 18 it may take a few weeks for it to come together.


Very moderate expectations for 2017 for mine.

[Rosco]

11-13 wins. As long as we finish above Collingwood.

[citywest]

Natural improvement plus our drafted players means we will win at least 14 games this year. With a bit of injury luck and lady luck on our side, that could easily swell to 16 wins and a top 4 finish. In 2018 the only thing in our way for a premiership is GWS. Between 2018 and 2023 I can see us playing GWS in at least 2 GF's (possibly even more).

[the dome]

& then 6, 9, 13, 18, 20, 22.
Winning all the above would make 9 very pleasing wins but another 5 is needed to get to that respectable number 14!
fingers crossed.

[SMS]

Ive got us at 13 Wins.
6-8 finish.

That would be a good year.
Perform well in final or even win it and it sets us up for 2018 and the dynasty to come.
MUST WIN GAMES
- melbournex2
- hawks
- wce at home

[SMS]

Ive got us at 13 Wins.
6-8 finish.

That would be a good year.
Perform well in final or even win it and it sets us up for 2018 and the dynasty to come.
MUST WIN GAMES
- melbournex2
- hawks
- wce at home

[Life Long Saint]

At last we have a senior coach that rates both Ruckmen and Key Defenders, because Grant Thomas didn't rate having a top ruckman in his sides, and Lyon obviously didn't rate having top key defenders in his sides, nor the inclination to develop any.

The premiership winning coach doesn't seem to rate ruckmen either!
Roughhead and Boyd!

It's also not true about Thomas. He tried many times to recruit a top ruckman...He didn't want someone that added no value around the ground (like Jason Holmes - still scratching my head about his contract).

[Sanctorum]

Lifelong Saint wrote:

The premiership winning coach doesn't seem to rate ruckmen either!
Roughhead and Boyd!

It's also not true about Thomas. He tried many times to recruit a top ruckman...He didn't want someone that added no value around the ground (like Jason Holmes - still scratching my head about his contract).

Aren't you forgetting Clarkson recruiting Ben McEvoy?

As for Thomas, it was early on in his tenure as coach that he let Peter Everitt go to Hawthorn, where he played for 4 seasons, then Sydney for another 2. Anyone's guess how the 2005 team would have fared if Everitt was No.1 Ruckman in losing to Sydney in the Preliminary Final.

[Spinner]

Thomo made a joke about ruckman and media spun it that he didn't rate them.

He nearly got Cox to the club

Not sure what you mean about Lyon and defenders but it's untrue

You rate Kosi better than Roo?

You are either a troll or just take taking the piss

"nearly" getting Cox is meaningless, facts are that Thomas went into many games without a recognised ruckman, and that includes Kosi who IMHO would have thrived as a key forward in any team other than St Kilda.

Lyon's modus operandi at both St Kilda and Fremantle has been to work with existing players developed by his predecessors, and apart from the ever reliable but under-sized Max Hudghton (who he scorned in the 2009 GF) he did not have, nor recruit or develop, a big gun defender, at both clubs...unless you are referring to the hapless Dawson.

Roo is an elite player, and a phenomenal athlete - but on the big stage he far too often choked in front of goals, viz the 2009 and 2010 Grand Finals.

You are welcome to your opinions, and I like to think I'm entitled to mine, without being subjected to slander for expressing them!

I agree with SaintPav. Yours is a s*** post filled with inaccuracies. You're welcome to your opinion as are those that are welcome to criticise it.

[Life Long Saint]

Lifelong Saint wrote:

The premiership winning coach doesn't seem to rate ruckmen either!
Roughhead and Boyd!

It's also not true about Thomas. He tried many times to recruit a top ruckman...He didn't want someone that added no value around the ground (like Jason Holmes - still scratching my head about his contract).

Aren't you forgetting Clarkson recruiting Ben McEvoy?

As for Thomas, it was early on in his tenure as coach that he let Peter Everitt go to Hawthorn, where he played for 4 seasons, then Sydney for another 2. Anyone's guess how the 2005 team would have fared if Everitt was No.1 Ruckman in losing to Sydney in the Preliminary Final.

Fair chance that we wouldn't have gone anywhere...Everitt had to go...Just like Hall. Too many indiscretions and was not a positive influence. Hawthorn discovered the same and moved him on to Sydney. It's a pity because he could really play.

Spider was traded for pick 6 & 22.
The fact that we used pick 6 on Brooks is another discussion. That was a poor option in hindsight.

[Saints43]

...facts are that Thomas went into many games without a recognised ruckman, and that includes Kosi who IMHO would have thrived as a key forward in any team other than St Kilda.

How many games did we play under Thomas without a recognised ruckman?

[Saints43]

[quote="Sanctorum"Anyone's guess how the 2005 team would have fared if Everitt was No.1 Ruckman in losing to Sydney in the Preliminary Final.[/quote]

Considering Everitt was being paid 20% of our salary cap when he left you might need to make a few changes to that 2005 team to have him back in.

[Bluthy]

Well we've gone into a top up mode with Carlisle, Brown, Stevens and then possibly O'Shea. That means a guy that needed more development time like Eli gets squeezed out (although maybe there were other reasons). I fear for a guy like Sinclair. He will struggle to get played because big bodied guys with seasoned AFL tanks like Stevens will go straight into the 22. Then when next years delistings are necessary that look at sincs and go "Oh he hasn't played seniors - he is on our delist list". It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So if you recruit for the now, that better give an instant pay-off. Finals is a must.

[the dome]

Ive got us at 13 Wins.

MUST WIN GAMES
- melbournex2
- hawks
- wce at home

Personally I'm swapping melbournex2 for
Carlton & Collingwood and then Melbx2 as a bonus.

Ah well thinking with my heart but it can be easily done
just go along to see St. Kilda in Preliminary Final 1

[Life Long Saint]

Well we've gone into a top up mode with Carlisle, Brown, Stevens and then possibly O'Shea.

Carlisle and Stevens are both 25. Carlisle was 24 when we recruited him.
They're both long term investments for the club with a minimum of five years out of them.

Brown was to brought in to transition from Fisher and Dempster while our young key defenders develop. He is clearly the exception.

And, O'Shea is only 24. So he falls into the Carlisle/Stevens category.

Contrast this with Collingwood recruiting Wells, or North's recruiting over the past few years. That is top-up recruiting.

I liken our recruiting to that of the early 2000's when we got Gehrig/Hamill/Voss/Penny/etc. Medium to long term players.

[Bluthy]

Well we've gone into a top up mode with Carlisle, Brown, Stevens and then possibly O'Shea.

Carlisle and Stevens are both 25. Carlisle was 24 when we recruited him.
They're both long term investments for the club with a minimum of five years out of them.

Brown was to brought in to transition from Fisher and Dempster while our young key defenders develop. He is clearly the exception.

And, O'Shea is only 24. So he falls into the Carlisle/Stevens category.

Contrast this with Collingwood recruiting Wells, or North's recruiting over the past few years. That is top-up recruiting.

I liken our recruiting to that of the early 2000's when we got Gehrig/Hamill/Voss/Penny/etc. Medium to long term players.

I don't know why people are so defensive about a phrase like "top up" - its a commonly used way to describe the stage of a team that is is going into finals mode. All teams do it as you won't ever do a perfect list build - there will always be holes you need to plug to try and make your list water-tight for a premiership tilt.

Stevens hasn't made the grade at two clubs now. He's clearly brought in as a big body and big tank to improve the here and now of contested ball, midfield size, tackling ad spread. There is a chance he may fit in beautifully with us and Richo and go on and be a-grade. But he's clearly in the top up category. The quality of your top ups may even determine how far you get. What I do like about Richo is that he tries to develop everyone on the list. He won't just want them to do a role like Lyon and McQualter - he will keep trying to build them up into quality footy players.

To me Richo is clearly going for it, trying to push deep into finals next year thinking there is an outside chance of a flag with some of the vets with stacks of finals experience playing great and a lot of the talented young batch now hitting the 50-75 game mark. He wanted to bulk up the mid tier with bigger bodies and that is this topping up part.

But there is an opportunity cost with these guys taking list spots and also spots in the 22 that may keep a guy like Sinclair from getting more senior exposure. That's the danger of top ups. You're not patiently investing and developing the real talent that can take you all the way, not just into finals.

[#gosaintas]

Carlisle, Brown, Stevens and O'Shea aren't keeping Sinclair out of the side. None of them even played last year and he was out of the side. Only one of them will play in the midfield next year. If he can't force his way into our midfield then he's just not that good.

[magnifisaint]

Who says O'Shea is being drafted by the Saints?

[sunsaint]

Well we've gone into a top up mode with Carlisle, Brown, Stevens and then possibly O'Shea.

Carlisle and Stevens are both 25. Carlisle was 24 when we recruited him.
They're both long term investments for the club with a minimum of five years out of them.

{. Snip. }

I liken our recruiting to that of the early 2000's when we got Gehrig/Hamill/Voss/Penny/etc. Medium to long term players.

I'm a bit with bluthy on this one as we have traded away or top picks over the last few years
During the period you mentioned, with the help of a priority pick we set up that team
And I'm too lazy to check, but we did we trade picks for the players you mentioned above