Do we all consider Riewoldt better than J.Brown

[CURLY]

I'm interested as to what GF Brown dominated?? Seems to be a myth.

[mambo2706]

He obviously believed Winmar helped him as he advised the Swans strongly to go after Winmar when he arrived at Sydney. He also played alongside Craig O'Brien, a forward who had his career ressurected by St. Kilda and who kicked 60 goals for us twice -.

Where do you get your stats from? I'd try another source.

He kicked 31 goals in 1993, 53 in '94 and 32 in '95

[BigMart]

Stynes had a pretty good season in 1991

Pick a year for Ablett between 89-95
Fyfe this year
Ablett Junior 2009&2012
Dunstall kicked 140 in 1992
Williams 1994
Carey 1993 - 1999
Judd 2006, Cousins 2005, Riewoldt 2004
Harvey 1997/98
Nichols and Farmer had dominant seasons
Plugger had great seasons in 87 & 91
And of course there was Leigh Matthews

Point is
Great players have had great seasons...

Said it before, I don't rate a players greatness on their subjective ceiling at a point in time in their careers... But the collective impact over a career.


Question is
Who was the better footballer

For the reasons stated... I consider Ablett a better all round player... He was a freak in every aspect!

Just my opinion.

And Yes I saw St Kida from 87-91... I started following them because I was a FF at Under 16 level and was obsessed by a big young star who wore number 14 at StK and switched from Rich (and Michael Roach) in 1985 as a 14yo.

Tony Lockett was my favourite player (even followed him closely in Sydney)

That doesn't mean I can't judge him effectively.

[BigMart]

Judge him subjectively that was supposed to be...

[ripplug66]

Stynes had a pretty good season in 1991

Pick a year for Ablett between 89-95
Fyfe this year
Ablett Junior 2009&2012
Dunstall kicked 140 in 1992
Williams 1994
Carey 1993 - 1999
Judd 2006, Cousins 2005, Riewoldt 2004
Harvey 1997/98
Nichols and Farmer had dominant seasons
Plugger had great seasons in 87 & 91
And of course there was Leigh Matthews

Point is
Great players have had great seasons...

Said it before, I don't rate a players greatness on their subjective ceiling at a point in time in their careers... But the collective impact over a career.


Question is
Who was the better footballer

For the reasons stated... I consider Ablett a better all round player... He was a freak in every aspect!

Just my opinion.

And Yes I saw St Kida from 87-91... I started following them because I was a FF at Under 16 level and was obsessed by a big young star who wore number 14 at StK and switched from Rich (and Michael Roach) in 1985 as a 14yo.

Tony Lockett was my favourite player (even followed him closely in Sydney)

That doesn't mean I can't judge him effectively.

Seriously? Stynes? Did he have a year that no other player in the history of the game has had? Of course not. Even the others you said never had that type of year. Yep there are players who have great years but there aren't many who have years that no other forward has ever had. Matter of fact there is only one who can do that. And if you need a full career to rate a footy player well that certainly doesn't hurt Plugger. Afterall he has kicked the most goals in the history of the game at the third highest average ever and that includes 5 seasons where the side he played for finished last. I doubt Coleman or Hudson had sides anywhere near as bad as those and I also doubt Plugger had sides anywhere near the top end of Hawthorn or Essendon when the other 2 played. Without seeing him play his record stands alone. With seeing him play his ability and performance stands alone. And it was you who had the criteria of marking how good a player was by how they performed in bad sides. Ablett didn't have to many bad sides, Plugger had many and that was your criteria.

[Toy Saint]

Cannot possibly consider Ablett Snr in this discussion.

He was inconsistent.

He is a known drug user.

He only won his own clubs B & F once, and never polled many Brownlow or media votes.

He just did superhuman acts on the football field.

That's all.

Plugger was the very best. Baldock was unbelievable. Stewart was all class. Nick is a legend.

[samuraisaint]

I think most people on a Saint Kilda fansite are going to naturally believe that Roo is the better player. Take it to BigFooty and it would be interesting to read what the neutrals think.
I honestly believe that Riewoldt is the better player though, but I am probably biased.

[BigMart]

91 are you talking about??

Jim Stynes did win the Brownlow in 91 by 5 votes and was the clear favourite
And
The Leigh Matthews Trophy judged by his peers

I suppose averaging 26ppg and 9 marks as a ruckman will do that... Basically revolutionised the role of Ruckman

And this year Fyfe did what no one has done. His first 14 rounds he got 8 best on grounds

Was the year that your talking about with like Abletts 124 from 17 games in 93 at an average of 7.3
Or when he averaged 20ppg and 4.2 goals in 1989

Did you know that Gary average over 4 goals a game in his career along with 15 ppg.. Not bad?!
He also won a B&F in his first real season of VFL
Kicked 8 in his first state game in that year
He also kicked 129 in his first season at FF, won the Coleman that year and the next 2 years ahead of Plugger and JD

On Plugger being in poor sides (not my only criteria, but a criteria)
He did play in 4 wooden spoon sides... But his goal average in those teams clearly suffered, with his average below 4gpg and they were early in his career.89-99 he would have had a winning % of close to 60%
In the seasons where he kicked a century, he played in teams that won regularly ... Generally because of him.
But to say he had no quality around him is not quite true
Winmar, Frawley, Grant, Harvey, Loewe, Burke, Rice, Pekin, Morris, Fletcher all very capable
Kelly, Roos, Creswell, Grant, O'Loughlin, Maxfield, Schwass, Bayes also capable


Look plugger was clearly a champion, the best FF to play the game (just ahead of Coleman and Huddo)

But Ablett was nearly as good a FF but also played up the ground with great effect and was just a freak, plain and simple. His career highlights are just incredible... He did stuff no other player ever has done.

Interesting to know Plugger, on what measure you consider Plugger a better player?

[samuraisaint]

I believe Lockett was a better player than Dunstall, but I am not so sure he was a better player than Peter Hudson. Hudson was an absolute freakish player by all accounts.

[BigMart]

He played longer at a elite standard than Hudson. So I rate him better.

He kicked twice as many goals at an average of slightly less. But there was a period of Pluggers career equivalent to Coleman or Husons entire career where he averaged more than them.

As I have stated
It's impossible to measure ability at peak of careers or certain points (ie plugger 91 vs Ablett 93) as the sample 17 games each is too small. It's more substantial to compare a body of work.

Some examples
B.Harvey vs Crawford vs Cousins
I would say Cousins was probably the best player of that group, but the better career would be Boomer... Simply because he's influenced more games than the other two.

Pointing vs Greg Chappell
Chappell averaged 2 more (53 vs 51)
But Ponting played 65 more test matches scored 18 more centuries had more 1000 run in a calendar years. If you just took the differential basically Pontings career is the addition of Ian Chappells to Greg Chappells in output... Only slightly better.

Fevered vs Djokovic
Now Novak easily beats Roger now, but has a longway to go to match the complete body of work amassed by Roger.

Baldock vs R.Harvey.
383 games vs 119 games
Not sure how the two can be compared. Basically Harvey got adjudged in the best three players on the ground almost as many times as Baldock played in games total. Now Doc was great (and being from Tas he is THE idol) but I don't reckon he dominated every game he played?!
If you talk about pure quality and skill... Harvey hit 40 possessions numerously (yes ball winning is a skill) and rarely missed a target, so Stk retained the ball. Including a best of 46 and 4 goals (which could be close to the most dominant game ever played?)
Understanding of course, they played different positions, but that would be equivalent of a CHF kicking 8 and taking 15 marks or a FF kicking 14.
So whilst both were elite players (and possibly the best in the league for a period) it's surely the length of time a person is elite makes him the greatest. Otherwise we consider Allan Jakovich 4gpg average a champion?

And I'm not saying it's JUST about longevity..(NO Michael Tuck isn't the greatest player ever) .... As most will jump to the conclusion of ... It's about length of time (or how often) a layer is an elite match winner.
To me... The greatest player is the one who has been a significant factor in the MOST victories for a team, or who has won the most games as an individual.

[saynta]

[quote="Toy Saint"

Plugger was the very best. Baldock was unbelievable. Stewart was all class. Nick is a legend.[/quote]


Never have truer words ever been spoken on this forum.

[citywest]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

There is an argument for Brown. None whatsoever for Pav. Not in the same league .Roo not a champion? Get real troll. You are insulting

You're the troll.

[saynta]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

There is an argument for Brown. None whatsoever for Pav. Not in the same league .Roo not a champion? Get real troll. You are insulting

You're the troll.

At least I don't insult champion St Kilda footballers.

[evertonfc]

Only Saints supporters would rate Tony ahead of Ablett Snr... Plugger was great, but it shows how great Ablett was... He won a B@F in 1984 as a mid, played HF, was the reason Geelong was so great... Not even Hawthorn could control him.

Good discussion and debate being had in thread.

No doubting Ablett's versatility. But it does feels to be as though his stock has grown in retirement.

I have no doubt that his highlights reel has contributed to this. And it was spectacular. As good as any to have played the game.

But as much as I delighted watching him all those years ago, I didn't view him as above Dunstall or Lockett at the time.

Lockett was an extraordinary footballer who was unbeatable. Ablett was beatable - that was always my feeling about him. Dunstall was a machine; a one-man goalkicking production line who converted everything that wonderful Hawthorn team gave him.

They're all neck and neck in my view. All potential top five of all-time.

Carey was the best though. The only player I've ever feared as a spectator.

[Superboot]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

I don't think his average is much worse than either and because he covers more ground than either of the other 2 he is generally very stuffed when he kicks for goal. He also is more of a leading forward which means he has shots from tighter angles. He certainly isn't a flawed champion at all.

This may well be a false perception, adjusted expectations, or whatever, but I feel far more confident when he is kicking from a tight angle. It's the misses from 30 metres out directly in front that have me losing hair.

[citywest]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

There is an argument for Brown. None whatsoever for Pav. Not in the same league .Roo not a champion? Get real troll. You are insulting

You're the troll.

At least I don't insult champion St Kilda footballers.

I didn't insult any St Kilda footballers. The only person insulted was you because you can't handle anyone having a different opinion to you. Sookey la la perhaps?

[magnifisaint]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

There is an argument for Brown. None whatsoever for Pav. Not in the same league .Roo not a champion? Get real troll. You are insulting

You're the troll.

At least I don't insult champion St Kilda footballers.

I didn't insult any St Kilda footballers. The only person insulted was you because you can't handle anyone having a different opinion to you. Sookey la la perhaps?

Absolutely no way Pavlich is better than Riewoldt. That is one deluded opinion.

[saynta]

I know the usual suspects will go crazy at me but that's ok. IMHO, both Brown and Pav are better than Rooey. Rooey has been and always will be a 'FLAWED CHAMPION'. He has never been able to fix his kicking for goal. His bad kicking at goal outdid a lot of his great work and for that reason I don't rate him a champion. He still is a great player mind you.

There is an argument for Brown. None whatsoever for Pav. Not in the same league .Roo not a champion? Get real troll. You are insulting

You're the troll.

At least I don't insult champion St Kilda footballers.

I didn't insult any St Kilda footballers. The only person insulted was you because you can't handle anyone having a different opinion to you. Sookey la la perhaps?

I think most sane individuals have a different opinion to you. I would be insulted if our opinions were ever the same.Won't ever happen thankfully.

[citywest]

Nice come back saynta. What you need to understand is that forums are for discussions and opinions. Simple.

[saynta]

Nice come back saynta. What you need to understand is that forums are for discussions and opinions. Simple.

Thanks for the advice.

[SydneySainter]

I'm interested as to what GF Brown dominated?? Seems to be a myth.

I think the emphasis placed on key forwards in grand finals is overrated.

To put Brown ahead of Roo based on his grand final performances is doing so based purely on the fact that Brown played in winning grand finals, not that he "dominated", which I think is a ridiculous comparison.

Yes, Roo's output in our grand finals was probably modest at best, but did Cloke dominate either of the two grand finals against us? In fact, if you start thinking of which key forwards dominated, or were part of the difference in a grand final win, I think you'll find the list is small. The only player that comes to mind is Hawkins from the 2011 GF, but he dominated a qtr, not the game. It just happened to be the qtr that mattered.

[BigMart]

Hawkins must be better than Riewoldt....

The whole... Base a career on premierships is so ridiculous it's funny ....

[Moods]

Stynes had a pretty good season in 1991

Pick a year for Ablett between 89-95
Fyfe this year
Ablett Junior 2009&2012
Dunstall kicked 140 in 1992
Williams 1994
Carey 1993 - 1999
Judd 2006, Cousins 2005, Riewoldt 2004
Harvey 1997/98
Nichols and Farmer had dominant seasons
Plugger had great seasons in 87 & 91
And of course there was Leigh Matthews

Point is
Great players have had great seasons...

Said it before, I don't rate a players greatness on their subjective ceiling at a point in time in their careers... But the collective impact over a career.


Question is
Who was the better footballer

For the reasons stated... I consider Ablett a better all round player... He was a freak in every aspect!

Just my opinion.

And Yes I saw St Kida from 87-91... I started following them because I was a FF at Under 16 level and was obsessed by a big young star who wore number 14 at StK and switched from Rich (and Michael Roach) in 1985 as a 14yo.

Tony Lockett was my favourite player (even followed him closely in Sydney)

That doesn't mean I can't judge him effectively.

I don't agree re your opinion of Ablett. I'd rate him in my best 10 players of all time, but he went missing too often in big games. That finals series in 89 masked a lot. I can't think of one other final in which he was dominant. In fact too many games he slaughtered opposition teams that were weak, but went missing in the really big games.

Sure he had more talent than any other player who played the game, but he was as much the reason the Cats never won a flag in the era as anyone. When they really needed him, he went missing (89 aside)

Imagine a player with Ablett's ability and Riewoldt's work ethic?? Actually the best example I can come up with is his son.... Ablett Snr would be about the 7-8th best player I've ever seen - but easily have the biggest highlight reel. I rate his son in the best 3 players I've ever seen. He has dominated the game like no ther player I have seen CONSISTENTLY.

[BigMart]

So Ablett is the reason Geelong never won a flag?

Nothing to do with the other 20 players??

BTW
Geelong won a lot of finals in that period.... About 10-12
Ablett averaged 4+goals per game

[Moods]

So Ablett is the reason Geelong never won a flag?

Nothing to do with the other 20 players??

BTW
Geelong won a lot of finals in that period.... About 10-12
Ablett averaged 4+goals per game

His average would have gone through the roof after the 89 series. Can't recall him kicking a bag in any other final after 89.

This was a period when 20 goal games for teams wasn't unusual remember.

I'm not saying he wasn't good. He was bloody good. But I think the highlight reel blinds some people though. To be the best EVER I reckon he needed to dominate a few final series or at least a couple of GF's. Wayne Carey didn't dominate any GF's, but he dominated heaps of finals over heaps of years. So did Leigh Matthews. Gary Ablett Jnr has barely played a bad game in a final