Watters and Watson. History repeating?

[White Winmar]

Is anyone else out there getting a sense of déjà vu about the current situation? I have briefly mentioned this before, but I think it warrants closer inspection. The parallels are significant. Stan Alves coached us into a Grand Final in 1997. Despite following up with a finals appearance the following year, Stan was sacked.

Enter Tim Watson, a legend of the game and considered to have one of the best football brains in the business. He inherits what is still a decent and relatively experienced list, that is still considered a serious contender. The first half of his first season goes according to plan. The saints are 7 & 3 and cruising. What follows is the infamous "Hawthorn fade out" game, where we blew a 63 point ead. The side never recovered from this, but still finished the year a respectable 10 & 12. The list still featured the Wakelins, Hudghton, Loewe, Burke, Harvey, Peckett, Everitt, Hayes, Jones and Hall, amongst others.

What follows is an unexpected disaster. Our worst season since 1985, featuring a meagre two wins. The coach walks a year early, and Blight is hired. No one has answers, but it delivers us the first two picks in the draft, including you know who at number one.
A couple of canny trades, and the upswing in the cycle begins. Despite having the list from heaven and making 5 prelims and paying in 3 GFs, we still come up empty.

Despite making the finals in the year following the 2010 GF, Ross Lyon leaves the club. Depending on who you believe, he was treated poorly and was effectively sacked, or he is a greedy, duplicitous manipulator who engineered a better deal and left us with time still on his contract. Either way, we lose the second most successful coach in the club's history. The list still boasts the likes of Reiwoldt, Fisher, Montagna, Dal Santo, Hayes, Kosi, Schneider, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, McEvoy, Steven, Gwilt and Milne. An impressive core, most of whom have plenty of good football left in them. The new coach makes a reasonable fist of his first year, with a 12-10 record and ninth place. Some trading and drafting seems to top the list up and the future looks promising.

What follows is shaping up as another 2000. The team clearly lacks an ability to run out games, culminating in last night's disaster, in which we were out finished by a team that had lost its past 19 second halves by a total of 580 points, and which had won only once in that period. Watching the dogs outrun and out spread us last night was hard to bear. But the writing has been on the wall since pre season. Ironically, our performance "guru" i s the very same bloke who oversaw the dogs' disastrous run of fade outs last year. And before anyone mentions the youth of our list, how do you explain the power's efforts so far?

In the end, in typical saints fashion, we'll bend over and take the cyclical mediocrity, in the hope that it will bring draft riches that will allow us to contend again in 4-5 years time. Unfortunately, the nature of the game has changed significantly in tha past decade. Early draft picks are no longer enough to guarantee a rise up the ladder. Just look at the dogs and dees. At the other end, it is the clubs that put resources into development and acquire the best staff to do this, that prosper. Clubs such as Geelong, Swines, Filth and Hawks. Interestingly ourselves, Dees and dogs are the only Victorian based clubs that haven't saluted in the past 35 years. I doubt they will anytime soon.

I don't know if SW is the right man for the job. He may well be. Time will tell. I have faith that the pelican is very good at what he does. Again, time will tell. But for those who think we'll rise again, purely on the back of poor performance that delivers an advantageous draft position, think again. FA's won't come to unsuccessful clubs and the lack of funds is crippling. Then consider the difficulty in attracting sponsors and falling membership. We are about 7,000 down on where we were two years ago. Frightening.

I fear the modern game is developing into a multi-tiered, class system. The well resourced Victorians, the AFL backed non Victorians and the rest that make up the numbers for the TV rights. No prizes for guessing which category we're currently in. All suggestions as to how we can extricate ourselves from our current predicament, before we are forced to relocate, merge or become nomads for hire, are welcome. I'll be all ears.

[Devilhead]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

[White Winmar]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

If only, Devilhead. If things hadn't changed so much in the game, I'd do what saints supporters have always done. Grin, bear it and wait. The point I'm trying to make is that in the modern environment, your next trip to the bottom, might just be how things will remain.

[gringo]

Port have played their youth is the difference. They were s*** because of it for a long time. A young player with 6 games is not going to be as good as a guy who has 25 to 50 games.

[PADDLEPOP1001]

Agree with WW!

[Sainternist]

The only similarity between Watters and Watson is that they both have inherrited an ageing an inexperienced list of players.

I rate Scott far more than Timid as a coach. Scott had prior experience as an assistant coach and a senior WAFL coach (premiership winning teams, no less). If Scott took over around the same as GT or RL, I think he would have been just as affective.

Timid's coaching resume, before joining St Kilda, consisted of coaching his then teenage son's (Jobe) basketball team. If Timid had a strong list of players he wouldn't have been able to coach them out of a paper bag.

[saintspremiers]

Well said WW.

We really need 4 games a year in NZ for the money and maybe a real home ground advantage. That helps square the ledger a little - may make the difference between bottom 4 and the next tier up.

[SaintPav]

It's a good post and a good question.

However, it's a very pessimistic outlook. Our culture is very different to what it was even 7 years ago. The people involved are also completely different. Plus your underestimating the resilience and perseverance of the club as well as the people involved.

Having said that, the club needs to make some key changes to help set us on a new course. The first major change we need is obvious to everyone and hopfeully will happen next year.

[Burkey 1]

No Comparison, Scott is a much better credentialed coach in my opinion, I do quesion however why we recruited the Western Bulldogs fitness guy who had a woeful performance record at the dogs.

I think the high altitude will take a few years before it becomes effective, I aint no expert on this I just noticed Collingwood were doing it for a few years before it seemed to take effect.

What Watters has to do now is make the hard decisions on some senior players and bring in the kids he MUST now do this or our Academy will be seen as a joke. I said in another post our coaching ranks needs refreshing & if Lenny retires at the end of this year then he must be appointed in some role to keep him with us. We need a decent ruck coach & a decent forwards coach, I put up Michael Gardner & Wayne Carey for these roles & add Lenny in for midfield coach.
The best way to rejuvanate our older guys is to bring in the kids, if any senior player doesn't put in like rooey & lenny then they should be dropped & made to earn their bloody position back, some of our senior guys have just sulked & bludged for too long now, time for Scott to stop the hugs & give out some tough love, it is desperately needed NOW !!!

[Hallalj#3]

Are you serious? Watters is trying to rebuild our list we haven't been dreadful when we lose by 10 goals a few weeks in a row then i'd be worried. For now take it for what it is a development yr it only a couple of yrs to do if you do it right and i think the club has and is taking the right steps to make sure they do it right. Watters is the right man for the job i think he knows what exactly has to take place to make it a successful rebuild.

He has a 3 year contract let him do his full term and then reassess after that. But if i were a young player i know i would want the same coach for at least 5 years and i think the club would and needs at least that.

[creepypolar]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

not being critical...but if history repeats itself we'll also lose 3 GFs in 2 years...

[White Winmar]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

not being critical...but if history repeats itself we'll also lose 3 GFs in 2 years...

Where is the like button?

[Sainternist]

Our culture is very different to what it was even 7 years ago. The people involved are also completely different. Plus your underestimating the resilience and perseverance of the club as well as the people involved.

Having said that, the club needs to make some key changes to help set us on a new course. The first major change we need is obvious to everyone and hopfeully will happen next year.

Well said, Pav.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the major change you are referring to?

[SainterK]

Why are people freaking out so much?

[gringo]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

If only, Devilhead. If things hadn't changed so much in the game, I'd do what saints supporters have always done. Grin, bear it and wait. The point I'm trying to make is that in the modern environment, your next trip to the bottom, might just be how things will remain.

I thought you were the forum psychologist. Time to get more stoic mate. The sun will rise tomorrow and even if the Saints end up the Auckland Moas or what ever the AFL have plans for it's just going to be what it is. You have to just have faith that the current crop of people we have are steering the ship right because we have no control.

As our old mate says control what you can control and don't worry about the bulls***. Get in the bubble folks we will rise again. Turn up and cheer the kids on and enjoy the little glimmers of hope a straight kick from Webster or a crazy little run with the ball held out to the side like a butlers tray from Saad brings.

It has got me through years of Saintly disappointments. if we never win a Premiership so be it i will still follow the club, just hope we always show something positive of ourselves in every game.

[SaintPav]

Our culture is very different to what it was even 7 years ago. The people involved are also completely different. Plus your underestimating the resilience and perseverance of the club as well as the people involved.

Having said that, the club needs to make some key changes to help set us on a new course. The first major change we need is obvious to everyone and hopfeully will happen next year.

Well said, Pav.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the major change you are referring to?

Thanks.

New President.

[Sainternist]

Our culture is very different to what it was even 7 years ago. The people involved are also completely different. Plus your underestimating the resilience and perseverance of the club as well as the people involved.

Having said that, the club needs to make some key changes to help set us on a new course. The first major change we need is obvious to everyone and hopfeully will happen next year.

Well said, Pav.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the major change you are referring to?

Thanks.

New President.

That's what I thought.

I thought Westaway was standing down at the end of the year no matter what.

[White Winmar]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

If only, Devilhead. If things hadn't changed so much in the game, I'd do what saints supporters have always done. Grin, bear it and wait. The point I'm trying to make is that in the modern environment, your next trip to the bottom, might just be how things will remain.

I thought you were the forum psychologist. Time to get more stoic mate. The sun will rise tomorrow and even if the Saints end up the Auckland Moas or what ever the AFL have plans for it's just going to be what it is. You have to just have faith that the current crop of people we have are steering the ship right because we have no control.

As our old mate says control what you can control and don't worry about the bulls***. Get in the bubble folks we will rise again. Turn up and cheer the kids on and enjoy the little glimmers of hope a straight kick from Webster or a crazy little run with the ball held out to the side like a butlers tray from Saad brings.

It has got me through years of Saintly disappointments. if we never win a Premiership so be it i will still follow the club, just hope we always show something positive of ourselves in every game.

You make a fair point, gringo, about the world continuing to turn, no matter what. What worried me about last night was the reaction to this loss was one of extreme disappointment, the like of which I've only seen a few times before. I really feel for all saints fans and I don't want us to become like the dogs, or heaven forbid, the demons. Last night was as disappointed as I've been at a home and away ame since our"triple treat" hundred points plus thrashings at the start of 1985. I don't know what it is about this situation, gringo, but speaking intuitively, there's something very NQR about this group ATM.

I wonder how many shots in the locker we have left before there is a crippling mass exodus of members. We're already 7,000 down over the past two years. The omens are not good

[dragit]

Good post WW, though I will counter a couple of your statements...

The low picks are still vital for the ultimate success. Ports resurgence is on the back of a handful of very high picks.
Natainui, Franklin/Hodge, Pendlebury, Cotchin/Martin/Deledio, Murphy/Gibbs etc take these guys out of their sides and they fall away significantly. Of course merely having the picks doesn't guarantee success, used well they can be the difference between a good side 5-6th and an exceptional side top 2.

While it is possible for some teams to stay competitive and re-challenge without dropping right down, it's not possible for all teams. This recession was coming, whether it was Lyon coaching Watters or Malthouse

After our drafting of 07 - 09, I don't see any other way for us, you just can't make up 3 years of lost players out of nothing. I think the club knew this, hence boldly bringing Pelchan in above their very successful coach, ultimately causing a defection. I don't want to get all 'know-it-all' but it seemed pretty obvious to me that there was a tidal wave approaching after the 2010 season.

I'm not sold on Watters, seems to be making some pretty rank decisions... But it's not time for change IMO, can't see a new coach helping matters for now.

Whether you think we accept mediocrity or not, we are going to be down the bottom for a few seasons, not cause we like it, but because at least 12 other clubs will have a better group if players. We've done done pretty interesting work with trades and drafting over the last 2 years... So hopefully with 2 or 3 genuine guns added via early picks, we will have another genuine crack at a flag.

[mr six o'clock]

History never repeats
I tell myself before i go to sleep
Don't say the words you might regret
I've lost before you know i can't forget .........





Where have i heard this before ?

[Life Long Saint]

Scott Watters has not recruited players past their prime from other clubs.
Tim "mini bus" Watson pulled off the remarkable coup of getting Monkhorst, Francis, Antrobus and Charles. All crap and all past their prime. The mini bus thought he could just top up our list and get us the the Grand Final.

Watters has us going i the right direction. He's recruited a number of players to plug the gap in our list that Lyon left.
He is playing the kids and our game plan is sound. We just need to hit targets by foot more regularly.

[gringo]

I thought you were the forum psychologist. Time to get more stoic mate. The sun will rise tomorrow and even if the Saints end up the Auckland Moas or what ever the AFL have plans for it's just going to be what it is. You have to just have faith that the current crop of people we have are steering the ship right because we have no control.

As our old mate says control what you can control and don't worry about the bulls***. Get in the bubble folks we will rise again. Turn up and cheer the kids on and enjoy the little glimmers of hope a straight kick from Webster or a crazy little run with the ball held out to the side like a butlers tray from Saad brings.

It has got me through years of Saintly disappointments. if we never win a Premiership so be it i will still follow the club, just hope we always show something positive of ourselves in every game.

You make a fair point, gringo, about the world continuing to turn, no matter what. What worried me about last night was the reaction to this loss was one of extreme disappointment, the like of which I've only seen a few times before. I really feel for all saints fans and I don't want us to become like the dogs, or heaven forbid, the demons. Last night was as disappointed as I've been at a home and away ame since our"triple treat" hundred points plus thrashings at the start of 1985. I don't know what it is about this situation, gringo, but speaking intuitively, there's something very NQR about this group ATM.

I wonder how many shots in the locker we have left before there is a crippling mass exodus of members. We're already 7,000 down over the past two years. The omens are not good

Hard to know but don't let it eat you away it's still just footy even if we take it a bit too seriously. I'm looking at my kids taking on a second team- that is so depressing but I will psych them out after they sleep in the shed a few nights:) If we survived this long with f all to show for it we will keep going.

I got a heap of new members in the mid 1990s from the fact they were from overseas and thought the quaint crapness of our history was endearing and showed a kind of mad passion that is similar to following an ordinary EPL club. Heaps are now still living in melbourne and get to our games- plenty with kids. I ran into some Canadians and Scotts I had wrangled at a telstra store signing by Goddard last year. all with little Saints in full kits.

We should market that crazy passion of the fans- a sense of mad futility. I think some of the old boys are actually looking forward to our new crap period. Like old ANZACs getting excited another war was on.

[gringo]

Scott Watters has not recruited players past their prime from other clubs.
Tim "mini bus" Watson pulled off the remarkable coup of getting Monkhorst, Francis, Antrobus and Charles. All crap and all past their prime. The mini bus thought he could just top up our list and get us the the Grand Final.

Watters has us going i the right direction. He's recruited a number of players to plug the gap in our list that Lyon left.
He is playing the kids and our game plan is sound. We just need to hit targets by foot more regularly.

sounds like Vossy.

[Harvey To Hayes]

If history is repeating then we should be playing in a Grand Final or two in 6 to 8 years time

not being critical...but if history repeats itself we'll also lose 3 GFs in 2 years...

Never happened...

[degruch]

Chalk and cheese. Watson was a purely emotional (and desperate IMO) appointment with seemingly scant regard for his lack of credentials. He slid into the club with barely a change and proceeded to do nothing but sit whilst it slid into the gutter...no doubt with the hands off encouragement of our lousy management at the time. The appointment of Blight after Watson's departure proved how hapless said management was. I loved Tim as a player, he was an absolute champ, but as I feared when he was handed the job, was never up for the job.

Watters is a much more considered, credentialed and professional coach, miles ahead for mine. There's a lot of inexperience on our list and a hole as big as a football field in our list...there's going to be some pain, not that I think we should have been subjected to what I've seen/heard so far this year.