Jason Gram - where to?
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Con Gorozidis
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the guy was by far the saints best player ...for the whole game....in the 09 grand-final......now ball might just have bested him in the first half but only grammie got a fair run in the second half...yeah ..he is in out best 22.....best 12 imhfo....BigMart wrote:It was clearly stated by Pelchin that he was NOT on the table at any stage
I dont think any of us know for sure what he is on.....and are purely speculating...
question was
Is he in our best 22
answer
Easily.... judging on his playing history, and his 2011 season
Clearly when on song he's in our best 22 - the problem is how to adjust/reposition/change what he is currently doing to work better.
I'd start by playing him on the wing not HBF and giving him strict instructions to lower his eyes and pass it of to the nearest not furthest lead and no bombs under any circumstance.
I'd start by playing him on the wing not HBF and giving him strict instructions to lower his eyes and pass it of to the nearest not furthest lead and no bombs under any circumstance.
I've never seen a bad St.Kilda player - that's just how they are.
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dragit
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read between the lines BM…BigMart wrote:It was clearly stated by Pelchin that he was NOT on the table at any stage
I dont think any of us know for sure what he is on.....and are purely speculating...
question was
Is he in our best 22
answer
Easily.... judging on his playing history, and his 2011 season
The biggest drawback for other clubs was his massive contract which they did not want to pay out.
St Kilda's head of football, Chris Pelchen, said the Saints wanted to keep Gram, but suggested they might have their price.
"Because Jason is contracted our preference is for him to stay at the club. He certainly hasn't been put on the table ... but we're mindful of the fact that we've got restrictions and constraints," Pelchen said.
"There's certainly been interest shown. We've made it clear to clubs who have made inquiries that he is contracted. If they want to discuss Jason, OK, we'll listen to what they put forward."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/s ... 6167495031
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8856brother
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There was a bloke who kicked five goals for Adelaide in the 97 GF. Allen I think. He wasn't in their best 22 3 years later. In fact he probably wasn't in their best 22 round 1 1998.stinger wrote:the guy was by far the saints best player ...for the whole game....in the 09 grand-final......now ball might just have bested him in the first half but only grammie got a fair run in the second half...yeah ..he is in out best 22.....best 12 imhfo....BigMart wrote:It was clearly stated by Pelchin that he was NOT on the table at any stage
I dont think any of us know for sure what he is on.....and are purely speculating...
question was
Is he in our best 22
answer
Easily.... judging on his playing history, and his 2011 season
Don't let a good GF performance fool you. Yes it's important. Don't let it be the defining moment for any player. If it was, our captain would have all sorts of question marks hanging over his head, and he is a star.
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SaintPav
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Ball's first half was good but he was not our best player. Lenny's first quarter at least had to be seen to be believed. Switching Bartel on to Lenny was a masterstroke and probably won them the game.stinger wrote:the guy was by far the saints best player ...for the whole game....in the 09 grand-final......now ball might just have bested him in the first half but only grammie got a fair run in the second half...yeah ..he is in out best 22.....best 12 imhfo....BigMart wrote:It was clearly stated by Pelchin that he was NOT on the table at any stage
I dont think any of us know for sure what he is on.....and are purely speculating...
question was
Is he in our best 22
answer
Easily.... judging on his playing history, and his 2011 season
Holder of unacceptable views and other thought crimes.
Are we judging Gram on actual performance....or percieved performance????
His stats read fine, he did some good defensive jobs after R11 as a small defender and he finished in the top ten in the B&F....seems to me there are others we should be more concerned about...
And Shane Ellen never finished third in a B&F at Adelaide, nor finished in the top 6 three times....as Gram has....and never won a Michael Tuck Medal.....nor was he in the best 6 on the ground in the 97 Grand Final.
He does have his weaknesses....kicking the main one....but he is one of our few line breakers.....
His stats read fine, he did some good defensive jobs after R11 as a small defender and he finished in the top ten in the B&F....seems to me there are others we should be more concerned about...
And Shane Ellen never finished third in a B&F at Adelaide, nor finished in the top 6 three times....as Gram has....and never won a Michael Tuck Medal.....nor was he in the best 6 on the ground in the 97 Grand Final.
He does have his weaknesses....kicking the main one....but he is one of our few line breakers.....
IMO if Gram has the same output as this season then he will be playing quite a few games at Sandy. Would rather see a Winmar or Cripps running of half back. Funny how some players can play a great finals game and supporters always use that as a base to mark that player whenever their name pops up on here ...If he had the same game in tied 2010 grand final as 2009 grannie then we would probably be saying what a great player he is but he didn't and has very rarely displayed it since.
Jack Newnes happy to be a Saint !!!! PS and to hit a target !!!
Probably would not have been a replay if not for Gram.... I would suggest he was far from the worse in both the GF's....
Are you seriously suggesting Gram has not produced results apart from the 09 GF.....
I am actually thinking that game is working against him, as it has been bought up umpteen times in this thread and it was three years ago.....never mind his BOG early in 2011....or his consistent output from 2006-2009......2010 he was injured for nearly the whole season....2011 he was serviceable......
Ross Lyon rated Gram in our top 6 players in an interview in early 2010, I think his opinion is the one i'll take...
I would take a wager on the fact that Gram will start and finish in the seniors in 2012....injury aside
Are you seriously suggesting Gram has not produced results apart from the 09 GF.....
I am actually thinking that game is working against him, as it has been bought up umpteen times in this thread and it was three years ago.....never mind his BOG early in 2011....or his consistent output from 2006-2009......2010 he was injured for nearly the whole season....2011 he was serviceable......
Ross Lyon rated Gram in our top 6 players in an interview in early 2010, I think his opinion is the one i'll take...
I would take a wager on the fact that Gram will start and finish in the seniors in 2012....injury aside
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8856brother
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Are you seriously suggesting Gram has not produced results apart from the 09 GF.....
If you are asking me the question. My answer is yes.
His effort late in the last qtr of GF1 was fantastic. In saying that, I would expect it from any one of our players. His 2 2010 GF's were below standard.
I like him, but tell me where he has "produced" since. He has played a few good games since then, but so has everyone else in the AFL in the past 2 years.
IMO he has been disapointing. I think he got ahead of himself after a great 09 GF. Can't see his form changing. He is getting old. Hope it does for the sake of the team, but I,m not holding my breath.
If you are asking me the question. My answer is yes.
His effort late in the last qtr of GF1 was fantastic. In saying that, I would expect it from any one of our players. His 2 2010 GF's were below standard.
I like him, but tell me where he has "produced" since. He has played a few good games since then, but so has everyone else in the AFL in the past 2 years.
IMO he has been disapointing. I think he got ahead of himself after a great 09 GF. Can't see his form changing. He is getting old. Hope it does for the sake of the team, but I,m not holding my breath.
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"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
"Don't argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
IMO Shane Ellen would have been in the top six with 5 goals in a grand final surely ...? Just my opinion and I reckon any player would trade a 3rd B&F finish , Michael Tuck medal and top 6 finishes in a B&F and nearly a Norm Smith for a Grand Final Win. Reckon Ellen would have put his head over more than Grammie !!BigMart wrote:Are we judging Gram on actual performance....or percieved performance????
His stats read fine, he did some good defensive jobs after R11 as a small defender and he finished in the top ten in the B&F....seems to me there are others we should be more concerned about...
And Shane Ellen never finished third in a B&F at Adelaide, nor finished in the top 6 three times....as Gram has....and never won a Michael Tuck Medal.....nor was he in the best 6 on the ground in the 97 Grand Final.
He does have his weaknesses....kicking the main one....but he is one of our few line breakers.....
Jack Newnes happy to be a Saint !!!! PS and to hit a target !!!
Didn't ask who's opinion you would take be it Ross Lyons , mine or others on here , just making a comment on the topic. No wonder you give everybody the s***s on here as you always seem to think your opinion is the only one ...?BigMart wrote:Probably would not have been a replay if not for Gram.... I would suggest he was far from the worse in both the GF's....
Are you seriously suggesting Gram has not produced results apart from the 09 GF.....
I am actually thinking that game is working against him, as it has been bought up umpteen times in this thread and it was three years ago.....never mind his BOG early in 2011....or his consistent output from 2006-2009......2010 he was injured for nearly the whole season....2011 he was serviceable......
Ross Lyon rated Gram in our top 6 players in an interview in early 2010, I think his opinion is the one i'll take...
I would take a wager on the fact that Gram will start and finish in the seniors in 2012....injury aside
Jack Newnes happy to be a Saint !!!! PS and to hit a target !!!
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Easily in our best 22 - and one of our most important players.
Evasive player who finds the ball plus has good pace and very good distance on his kicks.
Gram, along with some others who had interrupted seasons in 2011 are vital to our improvement in 2012 - and in assisting some of our younger brigade to acclimatise to AFL footy.
He will play in defensive and mid-field positions giving opportunities inside the F50 with his run and penetration.
What is of interest to me is the Coach covering off on our need for flexibility - including putting an obvious challenge to Milne that relying on being an exclusive forward pocket player will not cut the mustard because AFL football has moved past such one positional players.
Whether Milne can deliver on his rhetoric will be interesting.
No doubt we will see a hopefully fully fit Koschitzke (with a full pre-season) become a genuine utility "swing" player with licence to position himself where required including by dropping back - he will not play CHB but he will drop into defence where we have seen his abilities to clunk a big defensive mark many times before - and his disposal is excellent.
The likes of Milne and Schnieder will have to work exceptionally hard on the track, on fitness, on pace and on skills with and without the ball to sign off on the fexibility aspect of their Contracts.
Gram needs fitness.
He has all the other attributes.
Evasive player who finds the ball plus has good pace and very good distance on his kicks.
Gram, along with some others who had interrupted seasons in 2011 are vital to our improvement in 2012 - and in assisting some of our younger brigade to acclimatise to AFL footy.
He will play in defensive and mid-field positions giving opportunities inside the F50 with his run and penetration.
What is of interest to me is the Coach covering off on our need for flexibility - including putting an obvious challenge to Milne that relying on being an exclusive forward pocket player will not cut the mustard because AFL football has moved past such one positional players.
Whether Milne can deliver on his rhetoric will be interesting.
No doubt we will see a hopefully fully fit Koschitzke (with a full pre-season) become a genuine utility "swing" player with licence to position himself where required including by dropping back - he will not play CHB but he will drop into defence where we have seen his abilities to clunk a big defensive mark many times before - and his disposal is excellent.
The likes of Milne and Schnieder will have to work exceptionally hard on the track, on fitness, on pace and on skills with and without the ball to sign off on the fexibility aspect of their Contracts.
Gram needs fitness.
He has all the other attributes.
I just think the rating of Gram is off the mark....and by a margin....a recent post has queried his results in 2011......to finish in the top ten in the B&F last year, he was clearly not hopeless.......and as I said, more should be concerned about there positions....
Ray for one, who finished 20th, is also a poor kick and he had a very ordinary year...Gilbert is an even poorer kick, and he had a shocking year....then obviously there is the one who everyone defends - Raph..
and the coaches...past and present rate him....
those are just the facts I have in front of me.......Gram = whipping boy...
sure he can play a bit better, but I would suggest he is ahead of a few unproven rookies, opposition coaches would much prefer winmar/cripps etc....rather than him
Ray for one, who finished 20th, is also a poor kick and he had a very ordinary year...Gilbert is an even poorer kick, and he had a shocking year....then obviously there is the one who everyone defends - Raph..
and the coaches...past and present rate him....
those are just the facts I have in front of me.......Gram = whipping boy...
sure he can play a bit better, but I would suggest he is ahead of a few unproven rookies, opposition coaches would much prefer winmar/cripps etc....rather than him
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chook23
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my bigger problem with him he appears to "DECIDE WHEN TO GO" and runs off the line and puts an arm in.......BigMart wrote:I just think the rating of Gram is off the mark....and by a margin....a recent post has queried his results in 2011......to finish in the top ten in the B&F last year, he was clearly not hopeless.......and as I said, more should be concerned about there positions....
Ray for one, who finished 20th, is also a poor kick and he had a very ordinary year...Gilbert is an even poorer kick, and he had a shocking year....then obviously there is the one who everyone defends - Raph..
and the coaches...past and present rate him....
those are just the facts I have in front of me.......Gram = whipping boy...
sure he can play a bit better, but I would suggest he is ahead of a few unproven rookies, opposition coaches would much prefer winmar/cripps etc....rather than him
by the way his kicking is poor but not the worst.
saint4life
Gram has been to some extent made a whipping boy because of abysmal disposal at times and a perception of him as being soft.
STRENGTH THROUGH LOYALTY.
''I still get really excited, and I've got the '66 thing up on the wall in a frame … You look at it and think: one day, we want to achieve that.''- Arryn Siposs
''I still get really excited, and I've got the '66 thing up on the wall in a frame … You look at it and think: one day, we want to achieve that.''- Arryn Siposs
Pretty close to the mark. His opponent checking is average but when you are trying to break lines, create space or genuinely do the receiver role this can happen.dcstkfc wrote:Gram has been to some extent made a whipping boy because of abysmal disposal at times and a perception of him as being soft.
Grammy is a talented player and if you think otherwise you clearly haven't watched him - how do you make him succeed or maximise his talents? Direction and confidence = coaching. Where will they use him?
I've never seen a bad St.Kilda player - that's just how they are.
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St Chris
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I don't think we're gonna see any improvement in Gram, we all know what we're gonna get - helicopter kicks, not a lot in the packs, kicking points from 60m out etc.
I hope that during 2012 he is no longer in our best 22. This will mean one of Cripps / Crocker / possible even Ferguson etc has really stepped up into the half back or wing position and pushed Gram out, which would of course benefit us.
I hope that during 2012 he is no longer in our best 22. This will mean one of Cripps / Crocker / possible even Ferguson etc has really stepped up into the half back or wing position and pushed Gram out, which would of course benefit us.
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gringo
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Gram was injured in the finals 2010 and played full of pain killers. He could hardly walk onto the ground. He hasn't got full mobility back since.
If we improve in 2012 a lot rests on big outputs from the guys that should have starred but fell away or were injured. We will go along way towards a flag if we can get the most out of;
Gilbert- distracted by Duthie
Lenny-knee
Roo-knee
Gram-groin
Kosi -early and preseason injury/ surgery
Goddard-general slide
Montagna- slide by his standards
all those guys are stars and should have less baggage and hopefully injury free seasons. If we can get further improvement from Steven, Mac, Armo and a couple of first or second year players pushing for spots we will go ok.
Overall heaps rests on how we cover full back. I'm hoping the Wilkes boy can get in and monster some FFs or Dowler is the new Dawson.
If we improve in 2012 a lot rests on big outputs from the guys that should have starred but fell away or were injured. We will go along way towards a flag if we can get the most out of;
Gilbert- distracted by Duthie
Lenny-knee
Roo-knee
Gram-groin
Kosi -early and preseason injury/ surgery
Goddard-general slide
Montagna- slide by his standards
all those guys are stars and should have less baggage and hopefully injury free seasons. If we can get further improvement from Steven, Mac, Armo and a couple of first or second year players pushing for spots we will go ok.
Overall heaps rests on how we cover full back. I'm hoping the Wilkes boy can get in and monster some FFs or Dowler is the new Dawson.