Lyons stint - No forward planning

[Con Gorozidis]

Seriously, looking back, I reckon Lyon's entire stint with us was done with a short term focus as though he had no plan on sticking around. People blaming the Board are missing the signs that he was on the sniff for a bigger deal from day one.

He never planned for the future or for a long stint. His player development and recruitment mindset was always only ever looking a week ahead. People on here constantly lamented the lack of opportunity he gave younger playrers - his top-up mentality at draft time - his "who cares" approch to the Luke Ball (non) trade. His refusal to play Tommy Walsh. The list goes on and on and on - but the signs were there - he was never looking at being at our club for the long haul.

And we have to be brutally honest with ourselves - he has left our list in a diabolical state. If anyone thinks having 4 players under 25 in our finals side is ok (2 of those 4 hardly touched the ball) they are not looking at what other clubs are up to - there is a cliff not far ahead if we dont take drastic action.

[bozza1980]

Seriously, looking back, I reckon Lyon's entire stint with us was done with a short term focus as though he had no plan on sticking around. People blaming the Board are missing the signs that he was on the sniff for a bigger deal from day one.

He never planned for the future or for a long stint. His player development and recruitment mindset was always only ever looking a week ahead. People on here constantly lamented the lack of opportunity he gave younger playrers - his top-up mentality at draft time - his "who cares" approch to the Luke Ball (non) trade. His refusal to play Tommy Walsh. The list goes on and on and on - but the signs were there - he was never looking at being at our club for the long haul.

And we have to be brutally honest with ourselves - he has left our list in a diabolical state. If anyone thinks having 4 players under 25 in our finals side is ok (2 of those 4 hardly touched the ball) they are not looking at what other clubs are up to - there is a cliff not far ahead if we dont take drastic action.

You may well be right on all fronts.

But had the ball bounced differently in 2 games in 2009/10 his short term focus would have delivered 2 flags.

I know this is a case of if Uncle John was a woman he'd be Auntie Jean, but sometimes you have to roll the dice and play for now.

Ofcourse I'm not happy that Ross Lyon sees us as yesterdays newspaper, worth reading yesterday, worthless today, but I don't think we should shoot him for trying to win us the flag.

I am prepared to join the rifle squad (metaphorically only) for other reasons though.....

[plugger66]

Seriously, looking back, I reckon Lyon's entire stint with us was done with a short term focus as though he had no plan on sticking around. People blaming the Board are missing the signs that he was on the sniff for a bigger deal from day one.

He never planned for the future or for a long stint. His player development and recruitment mindset was always only ever looking a week ahead. People on here constantly lamented the lack of opportunity he gave younger playrers - his top-up mentality at draft time - his "who cares" approch to the Luke Ball (non) trade. His refusal to play Tommy Walsh. The list goes on and on and on - but the signs were there - he was never looking at being at our club for the long haul.

And we have to be brutally honest with ourselves - he has left our list in a diabolical state. If anyone thinks having 4 players under 25 in our finals side is ok (2 of those 4 hardly touched the ball) they are not looking at what other clubs are up to - there is a cliff not far ahead if we dont take drastic action.

Lets face it even if he planned for the future what would we have now. Still have our aging stars. No coach can stop that. We would have got pick 16 which may or may not have gotten a good player but they would only be in their second year so probably not much difference yet. We also would have had some more high picks which is more likely got us duds or at best maybe one or two good players that again wouldnt be ready yet. We wouldnt have Schneider or Dempster who would be both losses.

He had to coach for the now especially as we had a chance to win a flag after a 45 year wait.

[Saints43]

I reckon St Kilda needs to throw everything at winning a flag when the opportunity presents. And that's what we did.

[Con Gorozidis]

I reckon St Kilda needs to throw everything at winning a flag when the opportunity presents. And that's what we did.

I believe you can still play for a flag but plan for the future at the same time. You can blend in young players gradually when the opportunity presents.
There were million things were questionable in the here and now - let alone the planning. Any CEO will want to maximise profits today but also have an eye on the future.

[saint3d]

he was never looking at being at our club for the long haul.

So maybe he was telling the truth when he said:

My position hasn't changed. I don't deal in rumour and innuendo and certainly I'm as committed as I've ever been to my role. My status hasn't changed one iota.

[InkerSaint]

A hypothetical look at our draft and trading under Lyon.

2006
Shane Birss came as part of a trade package with Michael Gardiner. Cost = lollipop
We also traded out pick #43
2006 pick #43 = Tim Houlihan

2007
Schneider and Dempster for pick #26
2007 pick #26 = Brett Meredith
Blew pick #57 on re-drafting Fraser Gehrig
2007 pick #58 = Tony Armstrong
King and Charlie Gardiner for pick #90
2007 pick #90 = not used (last live pick was #72)

2008
Farren Ray and pick #48 traded for pick #31
2008 pick #31 = Jordan Roughead
Player taken with pick #48 = Rhys Stanley
Player intended by Saints for pick #31 = Rhys Stanley

2009
Andrew Lovett traded for pick #16
2009 pick #16 = Jasper Pittard
Brett Peake traded for pick #48
2009 pick #48 = Jesse Crichton

2010
No trades. Two mature players picked up amongst other clubs' rookie upgrades

[plugger66]

A hypothetical look at our draft and trading under Lyon.

2006
Shane Birss came as part of a trade package with Michael Gardiner. Cost = lollipop
We also traded out pick #43
2006 pick #43 = Tim Houlihan

2007
Schneider and Dempster for pick #26
2007 pick #26 = Brett Meredith
Blew pick #57 on re-drafting Fraser Gehrig
2007 pick #58 = Tony Armstrong
King and Charlie Gardiner for pick #90
2007 pick #90 = not used (last live pick was #72)

2008
Farren Ray and pick #48 traded for pick #31
2008 pick #31 = Jordan Roughead
Player taken with pick #48 = Rhys Stanley
Player intended by Saints for pick #31 = Rhys Stanley

2009
Andrew Lovett traded for pick #16
2009 pick #16 = Jasper Pittard
Brett Peake traded for pick #48
2009 pick #48 = Jesse Crichton

2010
No trades. Two mature players picked up amongst other clubs' rookie upgrades

So going by that even though I dont agree we would have taken the same player, we are actually better off and nothing could be done with forward planning. I would interested in those who say we lacked forward planning to actually justify it.

[InkerSaint]

So going by that even though I dont agree we would have taken the same player, we are actually better off and nothing could be done with forward planning. I would interested in those who say we lacked forward planning to actually justify it.

I didn't say anything about who we would take. I just offered a platform for discussion.

I'm sure you agree that what it highlights is not that the club has potentially ruined its prospects by actively trading in mature recruits, but by having an under-resourced (and possibly poorly-appointed) recruiting department.

There were still plenty of opportunities to bring in good young talent - assuming they were successfully identified.

I'm not a fan of Lyon's decision (and method) to defect but to say he has run our list into the ground is to ignore or miss where the responsibilities sat.

[plugger66]

So going by that even though I dont agree we would have taken the same player, we are actually better off and nothing could be done with forward planning. I would interested in those who say we lacked forward planning to actually justify it.

I didn't say anything about who we would take. I just offered a platform for discussion.

I'm sure you agree that what it highlights is not that the club has potentially ruined its prospects by actively trading in mature recruits, but by having an under-resourced (and possibly poorly-appointed) recruiting department.

There were still plenty of opportunities to bring in good young talent - assuming they were successfully identified.

I'm not a fan of Lyon's decision (and method) to defect but to say he has run our list into the ground is to ignore or miss where the responsibilities sat.

I am agreeing with you 100%.

[FortiusQuoFidelius]

Of course there was no forward planning... RL always put his planning into the defence!!

[meher baba]

I don't think Lyon ruined our list, any more than I believe the hokey old line that GT ruined our list.

I think that Lyon's coaching strategy always favoured the more mature players, which created a bit of a vicious circle for Armo and, to a lesser extent, some of the others who were not getting experienced at AFL level because they weren't experienced enough to get a game.

On the other hand, Lyon's approach was very good at motivating the slightly older fringe players: CJ, Gwilt, Raph, Dawson and McQualter (before he fell away again) are all examples of players who actually lifted themselves up by the bootstraps with the aim of achieving a regular first team spot.

The real problem, as others have pointed out, is that we haven't secured enough good young players with our earlier draft picks. It happens: it happened towards the end of the GT era, although we did get lucky with Gilbert and Gwilt in 2005.

[gringo]

Monorail, monorail, monorail.....

[Saints43]

Monorail, monorail, monorail.....

Exactly. I pray we aren't still talking about him five years after he left like we have about GT. (Unless we're about to play freo)

Will be interested to see what the club decide to do. Cut most of the senior players loose - so they can chase a flag or pick up a big payday - and trade for youth.
Or whether they feel the list can be revitalised by Pelchen and the new boss.

[SainterK]

Monorail, monorail, monorail.....

Exactly. I pray we aren't still talking about him five years after he left like we have about GT. (Unless we're about to play freo)

Oh I'm sure we will

[Con Gorozidis]

A hypothetical look at our draft and trading under Lyon.

2006
Shane Birss came as part of a trade package with Michael Gardiner. Cost = lollipop
We also traded out pick #43
2006 pick #43 = Tim Houlihan

2007
Schneider and Dempster for pick #26
2007 pick #26 = Brett Meredith
Blew pick #57 on re-drafting Fraser Gehrig
2007 pick #58 = Tony Armstrong
King and Charlie Gardiner for pick #90
2007 pick #90 = not used (last live pick was #72)

2008
Farren Ray and pick #48 traded for pick #31
2008 pick #31 = Jordan Roughead
Player taken with pick #48 = Rhys Stanley
Player intended by Saints for pick #31 = Rhys Stanley

2009
Andrew Lovett traded for pick #16
2009 pick #16 = Jasper Pittard
Brett Peake traded for pick #48
2009 pick #48 = Jesse Crichton

2010
No trades. Two mature players picked up amongst other clubs' rookie upgrades

So going by that even though I dont agree we would have taken the same player, we are actually better off and nothing could be done with forward planning. I would interested in those who say we lacked forward planning to actually justify it.

Are you a mental patient? I think youa re trying to somehow connect the Rhys Stanley trade with overall forward planning?

For starters in last years trade period we did not even have anyone working in the job - so thats pretty big up rflection of how much he/we cared about the future.
For seconds - i dont think we had a high budget/staff level for recruitment in general. once again was not a priority.
For thirds - high propostion of re-treads (as listed above)
For fourths - Those were actually on our list were starved of opportunties (apparantly they werent breaking the door down like firemen) BUT role players with no ability and no future were given regular games (mini, eddy) at the expense of trialing others.
For fifths - as much as it was said with words - there seemed to be a large disconnect between form, effort and reward and weak incentive strcutures of young players not in the "core group" to get in to it.
For sixths - TOMMY WALSH never got a game while we played guys with injuries or illness .
How much evidence do you need?

[InkerSaint]

Are you a mental patient? I think youa re trying to somehow connect the Rhys Stanley trade with overall forward planning?

For starters in last years trade period we did not even have anyone working in the job - so thats pretty big up rflection of how much he/we cared about the future.
For seconds - i dont think we had a high budget/staff level for recruitment in general. once again was not a priority.
For thirds - high propostion of re-treads (as listed above)
For fourths - Those were actually on our list were starved of opportunties (apparantly they werent breaking the door down like firemen) BUT role players with no ability and no future were given regular games (mini, eddy) at the expense of trialing others.
For fifths - as much as it was said with words - there seemed to be a large disconnect between form, effort and reward and weak incentive strcutures of young players not in the "core group" to get in to it.
For sixths - TOMMY WALSH never got a game while we played guys with injuries or illness .
How much evidence do you need?

I don't see what any of this has got to do with linking Ross Lyon to forward planning. Unless you call not selecting young players for AFL games a lack of forward planning - which I'd call "contending" as opposed to "rebuilding".

If our list is in a diabolical state maybe we can have yet another circular discussion about who was actually in charge of recruiting over the last 5 years. Or you could try here.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=72170

[Con Gorozidis]

ok well lets put it another way then.

people seem to be fixated on the idea that there is a black and white trade-off between "contending" or "developing" and never the twain shall meet and then excuse lyon's development performanceon the basis that we have been completely in the "contending" phase for the last 4 years.

how come during this period the cats were not only in the "contending" stage (they actually won two flags in the last 5 years) - they still managed 6 players under 25 in week 1 of the finals compared with our 4?

[Toy Saint]

Grant Thomas handed over a much better team to Lyon, than Lyon has left for the next coach

[Con Gorozidis]

I don't see what any of this has got to do with linking Ross Lyon to forward planning. Unless you call not selecting young players for AFL games a lack of forward planning - which I'd call "contending" as opposed to "rebuilding".

If our list is in a diabolical state maybe we can have yet another circular discussion about who was actually in charge of recruiting over the last 5 years. Or you could try here.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=72170

so the cats have re-building but we have been contending?

is this correct?

[bobmurray]

My position hasn't changed. I don't deal in rumour and innuendo and certainly I'm as committed as I've ever been to my role. My status hasn't changed one iota.

His role is a coach...never once did he commit to StKilda...he played a straight bat because he was scheming....

[saintsRrising]

Will be interested to see what the club decide to do. Cut most of the senior players loose - so they can chase a flag or pick up a big payday - and trade for youth.

I hope not as that would be suicide IMO.

Even the Hawks who traded several players for more picks to boost a good amount of early picks have traded for experienced players as part of their rebuild.

ie Guerra, Gibson, Hale, Burgoyne etc etc...

Or whether they feel the list can be revitalised by Pelchen and the new boss.

I would imagine it will be a mix...

* targeting of some experienced players that exactly address

* targeting of some kids players that exactly address flaws (and indeed more of what we did last year as from I can ascertain our picks and style of players picked up were right on the money. Sure we missed
Darling...but so did most clubs).


The mute point is do we trade one of our better players? Personally, I can't see it as our better players are in short supply and we cannot afford to lose them.


Two thirds of our team is good enough...we have to "build" a new third.

[bobmurray]

Two thirds of our team is good enough...we have to "build" a new third.

without the Turd

[plugger66]

A hypothetical look at our draft and trading under Lyon.

2006
Shane Birss came as part of a trade package with Michael Gardiner. Cost = lollipop
We also traded out pick #43
2006 pick #43 = Tim Houlihan

2007
Schneider and Dempster for pick #26
2007 pick #26 = Brett Meredith
Blew pick #57 on re-drafting Fraser Gehrig
2007 pick #58 = Tony Armstrong
King and Charlie Gardiner for pick #90
2007 pick #90 = not used (last live pick was #72)

2008
Farren Ray and pick #48 traded for pick #31
2008 pick #31 = Jordan Roughead
Player taken with pick #48 = Rhys Stanley
Player intended by Saints for pick #31 = Rhys Stanley

2009
Andrew Lovett traded for pick #16
2009 pick #16 = Jasper Pittard
Brett Peake traded for pick #48
2009 pick #48 = Jesse Crichton

2010
No trades. Two mature players picked up amongst other clubs' rookie upgrades

So going by that even though I dont agree we would have taken the same player, we are actually better off and nothing could be done with forward planning. I would interested in those who say we lacked forward planning to actually justify it.

Are you a mental patient? I think youa re trying to somehow connect the Rhys Stanley trade with overall forward planning?

For starters in last years trade period we did not even have anyone working in the job - so thats pretty big up rflection of how much he/we cared about the future.

Thats sounds like a made up story. How would you know that at all.
For seconds - i dont think we had a high budget/staff level for recruitment in general. once again was not a priority.

What has that got to do with RL.
For thirds - high propostion of re-treads (as listed above)

Yep but we didnt really miss anyone because apart from pick 16 the others were high.
For fourths - Those were actually on our list were starved of opportunties (apparantly they werent breaking the door down like firemen) BUT role players with no ability and no future were given regular games (mini, eddy) at the expense of trialing others.

Maybe I will give you that but the players werent good enough to get a game. We were actually trying to win our second flaf in 114 years.
For fifths - as much as it was said with words - there seemed to be a large disconnect between form, effort and reward and weak incentive strcutures of young players not in the "core group" to get in to it.
For sixths - TOMMY WALSH never got a game while we played guys with injuries or illness .

Con you havent seen this guy play. Our coahes have seen ever game.
How much evidence do you need?

You know what, the evidence you produced is poor and if it was a court case you would be shot down. Now go back and try and dig up some more evidence.

[bigcarl]

Grant Thomas handed over a much better team to Lyon, than Lyon has left for the next coach

And had a hand in building that team, too.