What's up with the Saints?

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What's up with the Saints?

Postby outside66 » Tue 17 Apr 2018 5:11pm

I had a theory going into Sunday’s game as to why, for the first time in Richo’s tenure, we cannot see a game plan. Whilst we’re still waiting for a plan B, I’ve always understood where he wants us to go with Plan A. Prior to this year (even as far back as 2014), what we wanted to do was obvious; pressure the opposition into turnovers and create scoring opportunities – the absolute goal/final destination of this game plan was the execution against Richmond in Maddies Match last year. Continued development of skills and endurance was what seemingly held us back.

Then came along the preseason. There were coaching changes and I think Richo has been thrown under the Grenda abit.

Goalkicking has killed us and I don’t think I need to talk about Ben Dixon’s input so far - Membrey was our best shot for goal but has gone backwards. No one else has improved in that area. As a whole, we hate kicking goals now more than ever but I digress…

What I want to talk about is Adam Kingsley. He is a highly respected coach and has done fantastic work since coming onboard in 2011, and particularly with our midfield group for the last 4 years. His new role, Senior Assistant Coach (Transition), is described as ‘taking responsibility for on-field transition, which includes offence and defence.’ This has been our biggest area of weakness and Dal touched on it by saying the players have turned into witches hats and no longer seem to be playing on instinct.

I know Richo himself has undertaken further learning in the space of allowing others to take more control from a coaching perspective, but I wonder if he himself has over-coached himself?

I believe that this can go one of two ways.

- Once the players become more used to current ‘plan’, they will be able to execute what is being asked of them (I’m sure the theory or machinations behind the role’s direction is sound) and we come off looking like the pace makers of the competition.

Or;

- The plan is aborted as it simply doesn’t add up in match scenarios. All is well and good to fly around the training track and on the white board, but if it wilts under match conditions, and the players don’t believe in it, then what’s the point in wasting the year on trying something that will be thrown in the bin come next pre-season?

I’d be interested to learn other peoples thoughts on the matter.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby saynta » Tue 17 Apr 2018 5:39pm

I suspect it is Kingsley who is firmly in the players sights and is responsible for turning the players into witches hats.

The players are pissed off with somebody and that somebody is not Richo. Or so I believe.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Yorkeys » Tue 17 Apr 2018 6:18pm

Well, yes, that has been my conspiracy theory. I hope Richo says well we gave it a go and it did not fly, not all experiments work we need to rejig your role Adam. The set ups have been bad, but also there has been an undercurrent of unfortunates: back injuries to Bruce, Webster and Membrey; v. late diagnoses that meant playing injured, Billy gets a kick in the jewels - so no Ruck against North for a lot of the game; a couple of diabolic bounces of the ball at the wrong times against Crows, Marshall KO'd by Billings just as he starts to impact; Gilbert v. rusty against a red hot Menzel (coaching?); Dylan's collapse fairly early on - down two. Hickey ok but also rusty - will improve with the run. Silly selectors leaving Dunstan out (what are they thinking - let Luke and Shane S go head to head in training I think Luke would dominate i.e. pick your best players. And a biggy in my opinion: players need to embrace Paddy so you have only two options when clear and kicking into the forward fifty: go to Paddy or the person on his own in the goal square. Luck will turn if its given half a chance with canny decisions.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Spinner » Tue 17 Apr 2018 6:24pm

saynta wrote:I suspect it is Kingsley who is firmly in the players sights and is responsible for turning the players into witches hats.

The players are pissed off with somebody and that somebody is not Richo. Or so I believe.




Interesting info there - care to share more? Is it info or opinion?
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby saynta » Tue 17 Apr 2018 6:54pm

Spinner wrote:
saynta wrote:I suspect it is Kingsley who is firmly in the players sights and is responsible for turning the players into witches hats.

The players are pissed off with somebody and that somebody is not Richo. Or so I believe.




Interesting info there - care to share more? Is it info or opinion?



Bit of both. I don't know which coach is in the gun but one is. My suspicion is that it is Kingsley.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby parkeysainter » Tue 17 Apr 2018 7:11pm

Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby portosaint » Tue 17 Apr 2018 7:17pm

Maybe.

AR is still the head coach though. If he sees things not working surely he has the final say to mix things up? Not sit and watch us rot for 3 weeks.

If not, wow.... Just. WOW.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby 6621104 » Tue 17 Apr 2018 7:47pm

teams know our game plan- the corridor and push us out wide, we do not have the kicking power to switch quickly over distance - we have some long kicks but they kick floaters that give the opposition time to cover or we kick not to space to allow the receiver to run but we kick to where they are or behind them so any attack stalls., we do not appear to have the precision kicking to pick apart the corridor- though both Clark and Coffield look the goods. Gresham and Sinclair are both good kicks over short distances - they need to learn their limitations as should their teammates who should be leading to them not wanting the long bomb over the top.
This does not excuse the absence of the front and centre small when we do the long bomb- too many times a tall is spoiled with no saints player at the fall of the ball.
Skill and positioning - the latter the coaches responsibilty for sure.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Jacks Back » Wed 18 Apr 2018 12:02am

parkeysainter wrote:Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.

The Richmond game last year was Maddie's match and the last time Rooey was going to play in it. That is why they all lifted and haven't really done much since. So it was a fluke.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby barneyboyz » Wed 18 Apr 2018 9:44am

Yorkeys wrote:Well, yes, that has been my conspiracy theory. I hope Richo says well we gave it a go and it did not fly, not all experiments work we need to rejig your role Adam. The set ups have been bad, but also there has been an undercurrent of unfortunates: back injuries to Bruce, Webster and Membrey; v. late diagnoses that meant playing injured, Billy gets a kick in the jewels - so no Ruck against North for a lot of the game; a couple of diabolic bounces of the ball at the wrong times against Crows, Marshall KO'd by Billings just as he starts to impact; Gilbert v. rusty against a red hot Menzel (coaching?); Dylan's collapse fairly early on - down two. Hickey ok but also rusty - will improve with the run. Silly selectors leaving Dunstan out (what are they thinking - let Luke and Shane S go head to head in training I think Luke would dominate i.e. pick your best players. And a biggy in my opinion: players need to embrace Paddy so you have only two options when clear and kicking into the forward fifty: go to Paddy or the person on his own in the goal square. Luck will turn if its given half a chance with canny decisions.

I agree with this Yorkeys. Many things can make up an whole team slump, and it seems that we have that 'many'.

We don't seem to have the right blend of leadership that could respond to this at present either (yet). I have been watching Paddy for a while now and reckon he's it, obviously not right now, but could be captain one day. He has much to deal with right now, but he shares so many similarities with Roughy at Hawthorn.

I would now play Armo every game whilst fit, mainly as a forward then through middle. Keep playing Gilbo, get Mav back and keep the two big men in Marshall & Hickey/Longer. We need some mobile talls going forward as we were very short against the Cats (worked for Collingwood, but they had the best ruck atm), so Marshall and Mav (not necessarily tall) should help. We need some consistency down back so need to balance this with trying some newer players, we really missed Websters support of Jake.

Finally, I would swap the roles of Ross and Dunstan. Ross ain't getting it clean and Dunny looks the only likely clearance option, give Ross a role to keep someone. Further, it could be Steele, I remember watching his highlights from a couple of weeks back at Sandy, he was a clearance machine so clearly he wasn't keeping a player??? get him and Dunny off the leash more, at least these two run in straight lines, but they both need to lower their eyes and deliver the ball as opposed to just getting it there (something Ross does heaps)
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Con Gorozidis » Wed 18 Apr 2018 10:08am

parkeysainter wrote:Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.

It was obviously a fluke.
If it wasn't a fluke then we didn't finish 11th last year but make the 8.
Once again you lack the ability to understand the basic definition and use of a word and ignore actual real world facts.
We finished 11th. That is a fact.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby stonecold » Wed 18 Apr 2018 10:18am

Con Gorozidis wrote:
parkeysainter wrote:Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.

It was obviously a fluke.
If it wasn't a fluke then we didn't finish 11th last year but make the 8.
Once again you lack the ability to understand the basic definition and use of a word and ignore actual real world facts.
We finished 11th. That is a fact.


Why are you picking on Parky's Con?????

We are all entitled to an opinion on our football team, some have more positive opinions (Parky's, myself and many others), whilst others look at things in a more negative way (yourself, Drake and many others). Neither opinions are always right or wrong, they are just opinions!!!!!

We have all put much time, service or cash into the St.Kilda FC and are entitled to an opinion, I don't agree with your doom and gloom outlook, however you are entitled to it!!!!!

As for the snake oil comments, well, not appropriate really!!!!!
'Cause StoneCold Said So'!!!!!
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Yorkeys » Wed 18 Apr 2018 10:29am

Perhaps more a twist of fate. Nick really towelled up Rance and was heroic in his efforts. It is unlikely his knees would allow that sort of performance to repeat often. Maybe the lesson is give a good forward a better than 50/50 chance at the ball and recruit an instinctive small forward. Ever played with guys that seem unlikely athletes but had an uncanny ability to scrag a goal. Possibly Gresh is too athletic, to paraphrase my hero: Use your feelings, Obi-Onex4, and find the goals you will.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby parkeysainter » Wed 18 Apr 2018 11:52am

Con Gorozidis wrote:
parkeysainter wrote:Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.

It was obviously a fluke.
If it wasn't a fluke then we didn't finish 11th last year but make the 8.
Once again you lack the ability to understand the basic definition and use of a word and ignore actual real world facts.
We finished 11th. That is a fact.


No s*** we finished 11th. What has that got to do with anything, that was not being discussed.

You don't lead the premiers by 80 points at half time or whatever it was by luck or a fluke. Are you seriously saying you can fluke a win against the eventual premiers in a game of AFL footy and win by that much? Completely dominate the game against the best side in the comp?

Like others, the constant rain cloud of over the top negativity hangs around your head whilst it get peppered with hail stones and lighting. You are mentally scarred from supporting St Kilda if you really are a true supporter which I highly doubt. You might realise its not about you one day and your predictions so you can come on Saintsational.net and blurt out a rant filled post like "I told you Paddy was s***" or "I knew we wouldn't make finals again" or "The club is a mess" or "Told you Richo can't coach." People like you really can't wait for the club to fail, but if they do something right or good you don't hear anything. A psychologist doing his Phd would have a field day studying this sort of mindset and approach to supporting a sporting team. I might contact Monash Uni this arvo actually.

You just don't get it Mr Con. It is actually very sad plus your paragraph structure is appalling.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby freely » Wed 18 Apr 2018 2:29pm

parkeysainter wrote:... your paragraph structure is appalling.

Lol. Bathos. :D :D but so true!
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Con Gorozidis » Wed 18 Apr 2018 2:49pm

What is it they say about arguing with an idiot and being beaten with experience?

We finished 11th.
That is factual objective evidence that the Richmond game was indeed a fluke.
Of course us finishing 11th is an inconvenient truth you want to ignore. It doesn't suit the fantastic delusions.

And I do get it. You are an idiot. A fool who can't follow simple logic. Borderline illiterate. Deluded. A Kool Aid slurper drunk on Kool Aid.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby SaintPav » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:09pm

Someone is suffering from conformation bias and they’re trying to convince themselves.

Denial, the classic defence mechanism.

Priceless!
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby SaintPav » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:12pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:What is it they say about arguing with an idiot and being beaten with experience?

We finished 11th.
That is factual objective evidence that the Richmond game was indeed a fluke.
Of course us finishing 11th is an inconvenient truth you want to ignore. It doesn't suit the fantastic delusions.

And I do get it. You are an idiot. A fool who can't follow simple logic. Borderline illiterate. Deluded. A Kool Aid slurper drunk on Kool Aid.


:D
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby ace » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:15pm

Wrong question.
Should have been "What's down with the Saints ?"

1. Defensive effort especially inside 50.
If you can't chase and tackle you should be at Sandringham
It is your job, not someone else's.

2. We don't have enough players who can mark inside 50.
All 6 forwards should threaten to take marks, in a wide spread, not in a pack.
We have guys who should but can't mark and little guys who are too small to take an opposed mark.
The little guys are there to chase the opponents of the guys who can't mark !

3. Ineffective disposal especially in front of goal and into the forward 50.
Our recruiters do not pay enough attention to disposal when ranking players for the draft.
Poor disposal is almost impossible to correct.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby parkeysainter » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:27pm

Con Gorozidis wrote:What is it they say about arguing with an idiot and being beaten with experience?

We finished 11th.
That is factual objective evidence that the Richmond game was indeed a fluke.
Of course us finishing 11th is an inconvenient truth you want to ignore. It doesn't suit the fantastic delusions.

And I do get it. You are an idiot. A fool who can't follow simple logic. Borderline illiterate. Deluded. A Kool Aid slurper drunk on Kool Aid.


Whatever Con. You have been caught out a number of times before on here by several posters talking utter crap and changing your mind more than a jukebox full of 90's CD's.

You really just don't understand footy. Its pretty clear and its that simple to be honest.

Are you still the SS.net "site fact checker"? Lol! :D
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby axcellence » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:40pm

6621104 wrote:teams know our game plan- the corridor and push us out wide, we do not have the kicking power to switch quickly over distance - we have some long kicks but they kick floaters that give the opposition time to cover or we kick not to space to allow the receiver to run but we kick to where they are or behind them so any attack stalls., we do not appear to have the precision kicking to pick apart the corridor- though both Clark and Coffield look the goods. Gresham and Sinclair are both good kicks over short distances - they need to learn their limitations as should their teammates who should be leading to them not wanting the long bomb over the top.
This does not excuse the absence of the front and centre small when we do the long bomb- too many times a tall is spoiled with no saints player at the fall of the ball.
Skill and positioning - the latter the coaches responsibilty for sure.


Great analysis... interesting nickname.

Essentially, the gameplan doesn’t use speedy ball movement as there is 0 use of the corridor. It’s all boundary use meaning the forward line is never empty. Also, as majority of the kicks are from the boundary, almost all the kicks inside 50 are towards the goal square where all defenders bunch up for a spoil. Now Paddy might be a pack mark in u18 but he certainly isn’t showing it. And very low evasive and accurate small forwards to mop up.

Not enough switching when coming out of defense/up the corridor... it’s all kick it to the boundary as if there is a magnet attached to it.

So, just the wrong gameplan for the players st kilda has. And it is not Richo so much as the assistant coaches, but Richo bears the ultimate responsibility.

Even Ross Lyon tried different things sometimes, eg it’s play on after marks themed round (in 09). But, yeah...
Last edited by axcellence on Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:46pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Moods » Wed 18 Apr 2018 3:44pm

Yorkeys wrote:Well, yes, that has been my conspiracy theory. I hope Richo says well we gave it a go and it did not fly, not all experiments work we need to rejig your role Adam. The set ups have been bad, but also there has been an undercurrent of unfortunates: back injuries to Bruce, Webster and Membrey; v. late diagnoses that meant playing injured, Billy gets a kick in the jewels - so no Ruck against North for a lot of the game; a couple of diabolic bounces of the ball at the wrong times against Crows, Marshall KO'd by Billings just as he starts to impact; Gilbert v. rusty against a red hot Menzel (coaching?); Dylan's collapse fairly early on - down two. Hickey ok but also rusty - will improve with the run. Silly selectors leaving Dunstan out (what are they thinking - let Luke and Shane S go head to head in training I think Luke would dominate i.e. pick your best players. And a biggy in my opinion: players need to embrace Paddy so you have only two options when clear and kicking into the forward fifty: go to Paddy or the person on his own in the goal square. Luck will turn if its given half a chance with canny decisions.



this is entirely poor excuses made up by us to justify how weak we are. Not one of these excuses would barely raise a ripple with regards to the results so far.

Bruce was already playing crap before injured. So was Membrey
Webster was going ok but his injury hasn't had an impact on our performance. We were terrible when he was playing.
A few unlucky bounces against The Crows??? We lost by nearly 50 points. Once they got fair dinkum we were blown out of the water. Completely outclassed.
Billy may have got a kick in the jewells, but that's footy. He wasn't exactly Gary Dempsey prior to that. It left us without a valid ruck, but once again that's our own stupid fault.
Marshall did very little last week and I wouldn't say he was starting to impact. Fairer to say he was starting to get some touches.
Gilbo was outclassed.
Robertson going down had nil impact. We were already getting thrashed and let's be honest - Roberton was doing nothing significant.
Dunstan should have been picked from Rd 1 - correct. Once he has been picked it hasn't changed anything. We're still crap. Dunstan has been good though.

Why suddenly by going to Paddy every time will this change anything? It's more to do with our structures that Paddy. When we kick it to Paddy he's invariably covered because a) he's too slow or not smart enough to lose his opponent or b) structurally we're terrible and they always have the extra back on us.

Let's face facts. Our problems run a hell of a lot deeper than a few unlucky breaks
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby saynta » Wed 18 Apr 2018 4:10pm

parkeysainter wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:
parkeysainter wrote:Whatever game plan they were trying to implement wasn't working. That is fine and a change will now come. Whatever they did against Richmond last year needs to be implemented again. That was no fluke.

It was obviously a fluke.
If it wasn't a fluke then we didn't finish 11th last year but make the 8.
Once again you lack the ability to understand the basic definition and use of a word and ignore actual real world facts.
We finished 11th. That is a fact.


No s*** we finished 11th. What has that got to do with anything, that was not being discussed.

You don't lead the premiers by 80 points at half time or whatever it was by luck or a fluke. Are you seriously saying you can fluke a win against the eventual premiers in a game of AFL footy and win by that much? Completely dominate the game against the best side in the comp?

Like others, the constant rain cloud of over the top negativity hangs around your head whilst it get peppered with hail stones and lighting. You are mentally scarred from supporting St Kilda if you really are a true supporter which I highly doubt. You might realise its not about you one day and your predictions so you can come on Saintsational.net and blurt out a rant filled post like "I told you Paddy was s***" or "I knew we wouldn't make finals again" or "The club is a mess" or "Told you Richo can't coach." People like you really can't wait for the club to fail, but if they do something right or good you don't hear anything. A psychologist doing his Phd would have a field day studying this sort of mindset and approach to supporting a sporting team. I might contact Monash Uni this arvo actually.

You just don't get it Mr Con. It is actually very sad plus your paragraph structure is appalling.


Gorozidis was a crap footballer too.
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby Yorkeys » Thu 19 Apr 2018 2:47pm

I'm in the Moods for luv, simply because you sneer me, funny when you sneer me I'm in the Moods for luv.Why should we think of whether? ....This little (2018) dream might fade but we'll put our hearts together, now we are one, I'm not afraid. (Apologies to Frank S; who also sang Kick it to Paddy, he's all right! and When the Saints Come Marching In).

Yours in denial
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Re: What's up with the Saints?

Postby 8bloggs » Fri 20 Apr 2018 7:38pm

My money is on Kingsley not delivering on his new role - look at his profile on the club site: "In 2018 he will commence a new role taking responsibility for on-field transition, which includes offence and defence."
Our transition has worsened this year and it begs the question of how his role links in with the other senior assistant coaches responsible for defence/mids/forwards. Plenty of scope to stuff it up for the players if not defined properly.
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