Is it all doom and gloom?

[rodgerfox]

This season, of course it is.

You know my view, as per the 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread as to where our list is at and the fact that we don't have enough really good players. We constructed a plan to get "3 picks in the top 20 for 3 years" and pretty much achieved that. The problem is that we didn't nut any pearls in that period.

We expected to. And anticipated it. We set our targets and goals based on it. But it didn't work out how we thought.


The 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread was based on the club's very public plan of "top 4 by 2018 and a flag by 2020".

I think in hindsight, that plan was a mistake and most likely is the reason we're in the s*** we're in now.

Now I'm making some assumptions here, but I think reasonable ones:

When a coach arrives and gets told that his team must be top by 4 by 2018 and win a flag by 2020, it's reasonable for him to set out to achieve that. It's also not really an unreasonable expectation, given that he had time, and was being drip fed top 20 draft picks including a pick 1 and a pick 3 early on.

I don't think Richardson would have complained too much about the task he'd been set either. I didn't, as a spectator. I think it all looked fair and quite reasonable.


But fast forward to now, and it's obvious that we're nowhere near being a top 4 side. And looking at what we've got out on the park - we still won't be close in 2018.

But who's fault is this?

I don't like what Richardson is bringing to the table in terms of strategy - but we've got to be fair about it. You can't on one hand lament how s*** our list is, but then also blame the coach for us not being able to play the way he wants us to.

I actually blame the club.

I'm assuming that the club's blueprint for success still stands. We've heard nothing to suggest it doesn't, and frankly we're being coached to suggest that it certainly still stands. I'm assuming that Richardson will probably lose his job if he can't achieve the goal he was set when he was hired. He was told he had to have the team in the top by 2018, and winning a flag by 2020.

And as per above, the club was going to provide him the cattle to do it. But the club hasn't lived up to their end of the deal. They haven't delivered him the cattle. Not yet anyway.

This 'core' looks pretty good to me:

Steven
Ross
Stevens
Armitage
Carlisle
Steele
Roberton
Webster
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Gresham
Bruce
Hickey
Membrey
Goddard
Freeman
Long
Battle
Pick x (from Hawthorn this year)
Pick x (ours this year)
Big fish

Some picks and guys in there are speculative of course - but that's the point. The above 'core' is nowhere near good enough to be top 4 by next year. But it well and truly could be in 2 years time. In 3-4 years time is actually when realistically the above group will be at that prime age bracket.

So if the coach is still coaching toward us being top 4 by next year, then he's going to fail. The players just aren't up to it yet. And the issue is that if he is coaching for top 4 by next year - what sort of long term damage can be done in the meantime?

Could we be stifling guys in the ressies just so we can carry out the clubs plan? Could we be giving up high picks for 'big fish'? Could we be playing guys in 'safe' positions instead of experimenting?


It's not all doom and gloom for the Saints. The current group with some more talent added over the next year or two will be really good. Not next year or the year after though. But in 3-4.

But if the club and coach keep sticking to the 'blueprint for success' then we may well be in trouble for quite a while. The club really needs to bite the bullet, and admit they got it wrong. The idea was right, but the execution failed. No biggie.

It's only a biggie if you don't accept it and change direction.

Interesting OP.

I tend to agree.

[WellardSaint]

I am concerned about the lack of consistency.

Last year we had a win over GWS, which the club and us fans
got excited about, because GWS was seen as this Frankenstein supervillian on steroids, and beating them,
shows the footy world that we are indeed "the real deal".
Then we had some not so good games, until Maddies Match,
when all the planets lined up perfectly,
and the result appeared to offer proof that the Saints Juggernaut was on track to be the next superpower.
How about that half-time margin, hey!
Then we subsequently got comprehensively outplayed for most of the year.

Is this how it will be?
We have a "watershed game" where we turn around our season,
only to revert to playing like Auskick kids?
A lot of other clubs have a big win, and actually BUILD on the win and go on to do well...or at least
maintain that standard and level.

We appear to drop back to our natural level, where we seem to belong, and that it bottom 3.
It's concerning that the entire club is on the same page,
and just seems to chant the same Kool-Aid mantra of "if we just play Saints footy"
it will all turn out right.
They don't seem to be able to work on the weaknesses and correct them, nor build on the strengths.

[happy feet]

Saints footy has resulted in us being 3rd from the bottom of the ladder and potentially not winning another games this season. I have followed the Saints my entire life and have stood behind the goals at Moorabbin in the 70's and early 80's at the Gilbeys Gin end and have seen us play some terrible football, when wins were few and far between. Unlike then, we now can't water the ground to turn it into a bog.

So, yes, for me it is all doom and gloom, especially knowing that we had a golden chance to win a Grand Final but this was blown by mismanagement at the Club. I look at the great players we have churned through and to not have a premiership in their CV is very, very disappointing. Disheartening for the fans is an understatement.

I guess I cannot see the situation turning around with the current list, coaches, administration and board.

We had a once in a lifetime recruiting bonanza with Roo, Kozi, Goddard, Lenny, Gehrig, Hammill, Ball et al and we did not capitalise on it. Can you see a recruit boom like that happening again. I hope I'm wrong but I can't.

For the AFL, I guess we help make up the numbers and that's about it. Clarkson can call the AFL CEO, have a coffee and see the rules interpreted a different way. Can you see Richo doing that? Will Lethlean be able to turn it around - who knows and to be fair it's too early to tell - I sure hope he can. What I fear for is that when the AFL have a plan and it depends on a change to the numbers, then it will be all over ala Fitzroy and Sydney Swans. In fact , we are fast shaping up to be the Fitzroy of the new millennium. I hope I'm wrong but unless some genius can turn it around, I think we are on borrowed time. We have an awful time ahead of us and I don't think there will be any mid season changes, but I think what action is taken at the end of the year will determine our long term fate. Brace yourself for a lot more of what we have seen this year. It is not going to be pretty.

[fugazi]

Yep...I can't disagree with the above.

If somehow we were able to snag a couple of really good FAs, you could see how this list could at least challenge.

But comparing this list to the "09, 10 list, you just see the huge gulf ...and of course, even they didn't win it.

[axcellence]

No chance. Zero.

Had the greatest CHF of the 21st century in Riewoldt.
One of the best captains in Lenny
BJ, Dal, Goddard, the list goes on...

The club stuffed it in listening to some ex-hawk 2nd hand car salesman.

And when the above bunch came close, they got stuffed by the umpires in the 09 GF, and the media in 10 (Lovett/SKSG).

I am totally resigned to this club never really amounting to anything other than a also ran.

[thejiggingsaint]

“Doom and gloom” ? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective; of knowing what you want from following a footy club; of tempering expectation with pragmatism. For what it’s worth, my view is that the Saints won’t come within a bulls roar of being flag contenders for at least the next 10-12 seasons. Ain’t gonna happen. We had our best ever chances to be premiers in 2009 and possibly 2010, we were unsuccessful. The kind of quality list of players that got us to that position just CANNOT be assembled (and forged into a battle hardened and strong force) in one or two years, ask Brisbane Lions supporters about THAT fact! I’ve got my head around the sad fact that I’m not going to see a Saints skipper and coach up there on the Premiership winners dais on Grand Final day, in my lifetime. ( I’m 74 next birthday)
SO to the question asked by the OP: “Is it all doom and gloom?” My answer: it is what it is! I LOVE going to the footy and meeting my pals, love watching the Saints, am I “gloomy”...no I’m not, perhaps a WEE bit sad to miss out on seeing my club win a flag, but hey, I’m still enjoying life, still enjoying my footy friendships, and still SAINTS through and through!
( hope that answers the original question!)

[asiu]

i thought it was
... when the going gets tough the tough get going

seemingly not

....


we farked up a tad
ok

lets pick up our toys n go again
... there really aint another option

[spert]

What we're seeing now, is the result of 5 or so years of direction by the current president and board- in other words a big flop. Until that lot go, plus the senior coach, little progress will be made.

[thejiggingsaint]

I know it will NEVER happen, way too many instances of “past history” and “personality issues” for the majority of supporters I would guess, (not to mention the AFL & media) but I would love to see Grant Thomas take the position of President. Along with board members like Nathan Burke and Andrew Thompson. Thommo would (like McGuire & Kennett) be “out there” putting the case for our club with more than a little force.
Just a pipe dream on my part.........

[DJ Higgins]

I don't know where people are getting time periods we will suck from. We are missing one outside mid and one key forward, the ruck we can work around and hope HIckey, Lewis or Longer come good. We will get a mid this year in the draft who should be ready to go (Draft 2-5 most likely) which will help immensely and hopefully one of Battle,Membry or Paddy can start kicking a couple a game.

I say we are 3 years away from a huge improvement which coincidentally is once Richo goes

[Zed]

yes

[thejiggingsaint]

I don't know where people are getting time periods we will suck from. We are missing one outside mid and one key forward, the ruck we can work around and hope HIckey, Lewis or Longer come good. We will get a mid this year in the draft who should be ready to go (Draft 2-5 most likely) which will help immensely and hopefully one of Battle,Membry or Paddy can start kicking a couple a game.

I say we are 3 years away from a huge improvement which coincidentally is once Richo goes

“3 years from a huge improvement”??????? So that would see us (possibly) in the top 8....? By season 2021. Yes, an improved ladder posi would give us more “pulling power” in recruiting free agents, so a reasonable list could begin to be assembled. Still ( IMHO) light years away from being “ flag material “

[DJ Higgins]

“3 years from a huge improvement”??????? So that would see us (possibly) in the top 8....? By season 2021. Yes, an improved ladder posi would give us more “pulling power” in recruiting free agents, so a reasonable list could begin to be assembled. Still ( IMHO) light years away from being “ flag material “

Yeah 3 years sounds about right. Coming off a low base helps i.e. coming from 17th to 8-10th is a huge. Secondly we will start kicking better, we will. Last weekend showed that we can kick straight and if we kick at say 60 % accuracy we will be so much better and put scoreboard pressure on the opposition and start winning games. There is also a few players coming back from injuries e.g. Long & Acres and with any luck Roberton that were playing really good footy and will get better next year.
My biggest concern is our coaching staff. Our players are developing at a rate I like and we have a terrible game plan that is costing us games. And based on attendance I am not alone in this.
When this changes watch us rise. I am actually looking forward to 2019. Only 306 more sleeps

[SinCitySainter]

“Doom and gloom” ? I guess it’s all a matter of perspective; of knowing what you want from following a footy club; of tempering expectation with pragmatism. For what it’s worth, my view is that the Saints won’t come within a bulls roar of being flag contenders for at least the next 10-12 seasons. Ain’t gonna happen. We had our best ever chances to be premiers in 2009 and possibly 2010, we were unsuccessful. The kind of quality list of players that got us to that position just CANNOT be assembled (and forged into a battle hardened and strong force) in one or two years, ask Brisbane Lions supporters about THAT fact! I’ve got my head around the sad fact that I’m not going to see a Saints skipper and coach up there on the Premiership winners dais on Grand Final day, in my lifetime. ( I’m 74 next birthday)
SO to the question asked by the OP: “Is it all doom and gloom?” My answer: it is what it is! I LOVE going to the footy and meeting my pals, love watching the Saints, am I “gloomy”...no I’m not, perhaps a WEE bit sad to miss out on seeing my club win a flag, but hey, I’m still enjoying life, still enjoying my footy friendships, and still SAINTS through and through!
( hope that answers the original question!)

Well said Sir.
I am a 20 plus year member and while still only in my low 50s am not sure if I will ever see us win the big one.
Does that depress me? Not really football is only a part of my life and certainly not the most important.
I do not judge my personal worth by how my footy team performs which it seems many do.
I enjoy going to the footy and actually will rant and rave a bit while I am there but afterwards it is just another game.

[Mr Magic]

This season, of course it is.

You know my view, as per the 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread as to where our list is at and the fact that we don't have enough really good players. We constructed a plan to get "3 picks in the top 20 for 3 years" and pretty much achieved that. The problem is that we didn't nut any pearls in that period.

We expected to. And anticipated it. We set our targets and goals based on it. But it didn't work out how we thought.


The 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread was based on the club's very public plan of "top 4 by 2018 and a flag by 2020".

I think in hindsight, that plan was a mistake and most likely is the reason we're in the s*** we're in now.

Now I'm making some assumptions here, but I think reasonable ones:

When a coach arrives and gets told that his team must be top by 4 by 2018 and win a flag by 2020, it's reasonable for him to set out to achieve that. It's also not really an unreasonable expectation, given that he had time, and was being drip fed top 20 draft picks including a pick 1 and a pick 3 early on.

I don't think Richardson would have complained too much about the task he'd been set either. I didn't, as a spectator. I think it all looked fair and quite reasonable.


But fast forward to now, and it's obvious that we're nowhere near being a top 4 side. And looking at what we've got out on the park - we still won't be close in 2018.

But who's fault is this?

I don't like what Richardson is bringing to the table in terms of strategy - but we've got to be fair about it. You can't on one hand lament how s*** our list is, but then also blame the coach for us not being able to play the way he wants us to.

I actually blame the club.

I'm assuming that the club's blueprint for success still stands. We've heard nothing to suggest it doesn't, and frankly we're being coached to suggest that it certainly still stands. I'm assuming that Richardson will probably lose his job if he can't achieve the goal he was set when he was hired. He was told he had to have the team in the top by 2018, and winning a flag by 2020.

And as per above, the club was going to provide him the cattle to do it. But the club hasn't lived up to their end of the deal. They haven't delivered him the cattle. Not yet anyway.

This 'core' looks pretty good to me:

Steven
Ross
Stevens
Armitage
Carlisle
Steele
Roberton
Webster
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Gresham
Bruce
Hickey
Membrey
Goddard
Freeman
Long
Battle
Pick x (from Hawthorn this year)
Pick x (ours this year)
Big fish

Some picks and guys in there are speculative of course - but that's the point. The above 'core' is nowhere near good enough to be top 4 by next year. But it well and truly could be in 2 years time. In 3-4 years time is actually when realistically the above group will be at that prime age bracket.

So if the coach is still coaching toward us being top 4 by next year, then he's going to fail. The players just aren't up to it yet. And the issue is that if he is coaching for top 4 by next year - what sort of long term damage can be done in the meantime?

Could we be stifling guys in the ressies just so we can carry out the clubs plan? Could we be giving up high picks for 'big fish'? Could we be playing guys in 'safe' positions instead of experimenting?


It's not all doom and gloom for the Saints. The current group with some more talent added over the next year or two will be really good. Not next year or the year after though. But in 3-4.

But if the club and coach keep sticking to the 'blueprint for success' then we may well be in trouble for quite a while. The club really needs to bite the bullet, and admit they got it wrong. The idea was right, but the execution failed. No biggie.

It's only a biggie if you don't accept it and change direction.

Interesting OP.

I tend to agree.

Hilarious.
You're agreeing with yourself?

[rodgerfox]

Hilarious.
You're agreeing with yourself?

Hi Mr Magic, I was a rude prick to you back in the day.

I apologise.

It wasn't cool behaviour.

[Teflon]

This season, of course it is.

You know my view, as per the 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread as to where our list is at and the fact that we don't have enough really good players. We constructed a plan to get "3 picks in the top 20 for 3 years" and pretty much achieved that. The problem is that we didn't nut any pearls in that period.

We expected to. And anticipated it. We set our targets and goals based on it. But it didn't work out how we thought.


The 'We're Just Not Good Enough' thread was based on the club's very public plan of "top 4 by 2018 and a flag by 2020".

I think in hindsight, that plan was a mistake and most likely is the reason we're in the s*** we're in now.

Now I'm making some assumptions here, but I think reasonable ones:

When a coach arrives and gets told that his team must be top by 4 by 2018 and win a flag by 2020, it's reasonable for him to set out to achieve that. It's also not really an unreasonable expectation, given that he had time, and was being drip fed top 20 draft picks including a pick 1 and a pick 3 early on.

I don't think Richardson would have complained too much about the task he'd been set either. I didn't, as a spectator. I think it all looked fair and quite reasonable.


But fast forward to now, and it's obvious that we're nowhere near being a top 4 side. And looking at what we've got out on the park - we still won't be close in 2018.

But who's fault is this?

I don't like what Richardson is bringing to the table in terms of strategy - but we've got to be fair about it. You can't on one hand lament how s*** our list is, but then also blame the coach for us not being able to play the way he wants us to.

I actually blame the club.

I'm assuming that the club's blueprint for success still stands. We've heard nothing to suggest it doesn't, and frankly we're being coached to suggest that it certainly still stands. I'm assuming that Richardson will probably lose his job if he can't achieve the goal he was set when he was hired. He was told he had to have the team in the top by 2018, and winning a flag by 2020.

And as per above, the club was going to provide him the cattle to do it. But the club hasn't lived up to their end of the deal. They haven't delivered him the cattle. Not yet anyway.

This 'core' looks pretty good to me:

Steven
Ross
Stevens
Armitage
Carlisle
Steele
Roberton
Webster
Billings
Acres
McCartin
Gresham
Bruce
Hickey
Membrey
Goddard
Freeman
Long
Battle
Pick x (from Hawthorn this year)
Pick x (ours this year)
Big fish

Some picks and guys in there are speculative of course - but that's the point. The above 'core' is nowhere near good enough to be top 4 by next year. But it well and truly could be in 2 years time. In 3-4 years time is actually when realistically the above group will be at that prime age bracket.

So if the coach is still coaching toward us being top 4 by next year, then he's going to fail. The players just aren't up to it yet. And the issue is that if he is coaching for top 4 by next year - what sort of long term damage can be done in the meantime?

Could we be stifling guys in the ressies just so we can carry out the clubs plan? Could we be giving up high picks for 'big fish'? Could we be playing guys in 'safe' positions instead of experimenting?


It's not all doom and gloom for the Saints. The current group with some more talent added over the next year or two will be really good. Not next year or the year after though. But in 3-4.

But if the club and coach keep sticking to the 'blueprint for success' then we may well be in trouble for quite a while. The club really needs to bite the bullet, and admit they got it wrong. The idea was right, but the execution failed. No biggie.

It's only a biggie if you don't accept it and change direction.

That ignores 2 glaring things:

1. The massive overrating if a list many saw 12-18 months ago as lacking genuine talent
2. The coaching group/Admin have had 5 years already to show us the plan that works. We are near last.

I’m sorry, suggesting “fail to execute” as no biggie is what’s wrong here (and with much of corporate Aust Is argue).

We don’t pay people to just produce pretty consultant blueprints - we pay them to execute.

On both measures this clubs coaching group and many administrators have failed.

It’s time for change - not more of the same hoping they’ve learnt from 5 years of stuff ups

[saintsRrising]

How much doom and gloom will depend on how long it takes for the club to change its focus to gaining 2 star mids.

[fugazi]

I know it will NEVER happen, way too many instances of “past history” and “personality issues” for the majority of supporters I would guess, (not to mention the AFL & media) but I would love to see Grant Thomas take the position of President. Along with board members like Nathan Burke and Andrew Thompson. Thommo would (like McGuire & Kennett) be “out there” putting the case for our club with more than a little force.
Just a pipe dream on my part.........

+1
The last time we had a chance to break the spell of our history and culture was set up by GT. He's a bit of a pr#ck....but he knows how to create a winning culture and cultivate leaders.

[congorozides]

Everything is in order.

Simon Lethlean is going to rescue us and clean up the club.

[/img]

[rodgerfox]

Everything is in order.

Simon Lethlean is going to rescue us and clean up the club.

[/img]

I wouldn't say everything is in order, as such.

We're putrid. Make no mistake.


However when people compare us to Melbourne, I think that's not a realistic comparison. The comparison should really be with Carlton - and even then it's not really fair on us.


As the OP said, the whole 'top 4 by 2018' thing was guff. Either a lie to generate excitement, or they just got it wrong.

Either way, in an entertainment industry I don't really see a huge issue with either. It's like a movie being advertised as the 'comedy hit of the year' - when in fact it's s***.

I think Pelchen and co. (and this was before Richo's time) first launched into the rebuild I can only assume they thought they'd land a star player with one of the picks we traded for and had prior to the 2013 Draft. From the Currans Templetons, Saunders', Shentons, Newnes', Dunstans, Wrights etc. er didn't fluke anyone decent. However Dunstan is finally looking like a good solid footballer. Actually, you could add Webster in as being handy - not great but handy.

So although our 'rebuild' started then, it didn't really start at all! They're all gone. Only Newnes and Dunstan are in the team, and many would argue that Newnes is very lucky to be. Our rebuild really began when we took McCartin in 2013.

Melbourne for example, started in 2010-2011 (arguable even earlier really) and have only started to come good now.


With us, our top end is deplorable. The worst in the comp by a mile.

We have Jack Steven and Carlisle. That's it.

So basically, we just have to wait, like Melbourne did, for the guys we picked up post-2013 to develop.


So really, we're probably on track.

[Mr Magic]

Hilarious.
You're agreeing with yourself?

Hi Mr Magic, I was a rude prick to you back in the day.

I apologise.

It wasn't cool behaviour.

No need for an apology - we both gave as good as we got at times.

[Teflon]

Hilarious.
You're agreeing with yourself?

Hi Mr Magic, I was a rude prick to you back in the day.

I apologise.

It wasn't cool behaviour.

Geez Dodgy you could be shelling out apologies for the next decade if you open that box.....

[desertsaint]

well it's all doom and gloom this week.
and the next...
bring on our round 17 blockbuster battle for the spoon!

[chico2001]

Nowhere near on track. Melbourne's records starts around the time they got Jesse hogan, so it is comparable. Good thing is that some of the younger guys are getting a game and they are showing a bit. Pissed off that Long got hurt because he was showing a bit. Can someone give an accurate assessment of Goddard, his kicking and marking skills and his attack on the ball ?