The St Kilda Culture Wars

[ThePunter]

It seems like, particularly on here, there seems to be two distinct groups of supporters, and almost every thread degenerates into a basic argument over these core beliefs.

In one corner, you have a group of people who, for want of a better term, cherish what has gone on in the last three years.

They believe:

- Ross Lyon did a good job, and was a clear upgrade from Grant Thomas
- The club recruited well, especially with regards to players from other clubs
- The club is moving in the right direction, and the move to Seaford is a reflection of that
- The club's core of senior players still have some very good football in front of them
- Brendan Goddard will play the rest of his career for St Kilda
- The departures of Luke Ball and Max Hudghton were regrettable but understandable

In the other corner is a group of people who believe that the last three years have been another missed opportunity in a history full of them.

They believe:

- Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players
- The move to Seaford is a mistake
- Goddard should be moved on for draft picks
- We've seen the best of most of our senior players
- The club treated Luke Ball and Max Hudghton very poorly, giving them no choice but to leave
- The club's culture has not significantly changed since the 1980s

Coming onto Saintsational, where I do not post as much as I do on BigFooty, it seems there are very few posters who don't fall into one of these two, obviously overly simplistic but reasonably accurate, groups.

And everything becomes a brawl between these groups.

How does this manifest for someone who does not have a well established presence on here?

Well, if one is critical of the club, the post will be dismissed by many as not sufficiently supportive.

On the other hand, if one is supportive of a much-maligned character at the club, be they Michael Nettlefold or Raphael Clarke, the post will be dismissed by many as slavish praise given through rose-coloured glasses, preventing tough decisions being made.

This becomes a very confronting, and not very welcoming, atmosphere. You know, like a battlefield.

Anyway, I know open myself up for a good whack from both sides. And hopefully, some good discussion.

(P.S. - I miss footy.)

[joffaboy]

Its an opinion business.

None is more right than the other.

For me I fall somewhere in between. I supported Lyon and his quest for our second flag, which was so so close to success.

But now the dust has settled I think it is great that he has moved on and a fresh broom has swept through the place.

I have been critical of the admin for its poor fiscal policies, however I have been fullsome in praise over their handling of this off season so far.

I believe that if you stick to just one belief in the faces of contrary evidence, you are either a rampant egotist, or just plain dumb.

You should call it as you see it. Circumstance is not linear or static. Things change, and with that, if you are athinking person, so should your opinion.

[felix]

Good post one must remember that many folk on here will argue the opposite just to get a response or to take the piss, which is fine if you are aware of it , if your not you may get eaten alive so dont take anyone too seriously and there are some outstanding posts on SS truly enlightening the wealth of knowledge here is very deep.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

I think ultimately with the exception of some trolls we all want a successful St Kilda people will rant and rave about players moving draft picks coaches whatever but it's ultimately because we are so desperate for that second flag.. No one is 100% right on what should be done all we can do is put our faith in the people incharge of the club to make the best decisions with all the information infront of them .. Our club is looking in good shape yes we have issues (name me a club that doesn't ) but I firmly believe the board / staff/coaches/players are on the right track

[philtee]

Good gravy, ThePunter, what are you doing injecting commonsense in here!
It is a battlefield at times, a bit like Stalingrad in '42, with plenty of sniping.
But the wider internet is a pretty lawless place as well.

Granted, there are posters who revel in arguing their entrenched positions,
baiting other posters, and engaging in endless colourful reprisals,
but there's plenty of informed news and opinion here as well.

My tips for Saintsational survival...
- don't post anything that you wouldn't say in person.
- don't post drunk!
- if you're posting angry, count to 10, re-read what you've written, then hit the Submit button
- recognise when others have lost the plot, or are just trying to get a reaction from you.
- as soon as someone insults you personally they've lost the argument, so they're playing the man not the ball.
- ignore the tit-for-tat "mine's bigger than yours" arguments, or get a laugh out of them.
- ignore the Trolls, who are usually easy to identify.
- the rolling "Raph Clarke genius or dud" argument will never be satisfactorily resolved.

[Rosco]

I believe:
- Ross Lyon did a good job, and was a clear upgrade from Grant Thomas
- Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players
- The club is moving in the right direction, and the move to Seaford is a reflection of that
- The club's core of senior players still have some very good football in front of them
- We've seen the best of most of our senior players
- Brendan Goddard will play the rest of his career for St Kilda
- The departures of Luke Ball and Max Hudghton were regrettable but understandable

[desertsaint]

- Ross Lyon did a good job, and was a clear upgrade from Grant Thomas - 50/50
- The club recruited well, especially with regards to players from other clubs - NO
- The club is moving in the right direction, and the move to Seaford is a reflection of that - YES, NO
- The club's core of senior players still have some very good football in front of them - YES
- Brendan Goddard will play the rest of his career for St Kilda - 50/50
- The departures of Luke Ball and Max Hudghton were regrettable but understandable - NO

In the other corner is a group of people who believe that the last three years have been another missed opportunity in a history full of them.

- Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players - 50/50
- The move to Seaford is a mistake -YES
- Goddard should be moved on for draft picks - NO
- We've seen the best of most of our senior players - YES
- The club treated Luke Ball and Max Hudghton very poorly, giving them no choice but to leave - YES
- The club's culture has not significantly changed since the 1980s - NO

WELL HARDLY BLACK AND WHITE IS IT?

[plugger66]

I honestly believe RL coached to exact plan that he rated the list. He recruited to win a flag and because we failed by such a small margin people now say he has left the list in bad shape. IMO he had no choice but to take the punt as we hardly have a flag winning culture. It was always going to be a struggle to leave the list in a building shape because of the decisions he made. I also think the way we played was a reflection on how he saw our list. Great 6 players but not great pace and not hugely skilled apart from a couple. I don t expect a huge change next year because of that.

I also think the current board has made a few mistakes especially on this years loss but have done a reasonable job. I would rather a high profile president though as it helps in sponsorship.

The club had little choices on Ball and Max as a decision was made, rightly for Max and in hindsight wrong for Ball, to leave them out of the sides so they left and fair enough on all parties.

Have no idea on BJ but if we dont make the 8 next year he should leave and we should let him.

Rated GT highly but RL was an upgrade as far as coaching was concerned.

[hungry for a premiership]

Punter you've been a bit too over simplistic on your generalizations of "the 2 types of people" on here, and therefore, in the world.

You've listed a few polarizing issues, but I think you'll find that most people have an opinion one way or the other about all of them, and, for example, to think that "Ross Lyon did a great Job" doesn't also necessarily entail that one's thinks that "the move to seaford was a good one," for instance.

But yes, it is a highly charged atmosphere on here at times, and unfortunately it does often degenerate, but every so often you'll come across an absolute pearl or a really cool vortex where u get some really interesting discussion. It's those good bits that keep me coming back here.

[evertonfc]

It seems like, particularly on here, there seems to be two distinct groups of supporters, and almost every thread degenerates into a basic argument over these core beliefs.

In one corner, you have a group of people who, for want of a better term, cherish what has gone on in the last three years.

They believe:

- Ross Lyon did a good job, and was a clear upgrade from Grant Thomas (A clear upgrade? We led two prelims at 3qtr time under GT in very tough years)
- The club recruited well, especially with regards to players from other clubs (Failed to get young players, did well with rejects)
- The club is moving in the right direction, and the move to Seaford is a reflection of that (Seaford is clearly not a step forward)
- The club's core of senior players still have some very good football in front of them (One, maybe two years at most)
- Brendan Goddard will play the rest of his career for St Kilda (Hopefully, unless we get a ridiculous offer for him)
- The departures of Luke Ball and Max Hudghton were regrettable but understandable (Terribly handled)

In the other corner is a group of people who believe that the last three years have been another missed opportunity in a history full of them.

They believe:

- Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players (He inherited a great list with big potential and moulded into a role-playing army - which nearly won a flag, so fair enough)
- The move to Seaford is a mistake (We'll see about that)
- Goddard should be moved on for draft picks (Only for the right offer)
- We've seen the best of most of our senior players (Probably true)
- The club treated Luke Ball and Max Hudghton very poorly, giving them no choice but to leave (True, less so for Max)
- The club's culture has not significantly changed since the 1980s (Wrong. The culture has change enormously, largely due to the impact of Grant Thomas and carried on ever since - that we don't have to be losers.)

Bloody hell, where does this leave me...?

I think you've been a bit too simplistic there, Punter.

Appreciate the sentiment of trying to box us into categories, but I call each issue as I see it and offer my views accordingly.

[Dave McNamara]

I honestly believe RL coached to exact plan that he rated the list. He recruited to win a flag and because we failed by such a small margin people now say he has left the list in bad shape. IMO he had no choice but to take the punt as we hardly have a flag winning culture. It was always going to be a struggle to leave the list in a building shape because of the decisions he made. I also think the way we played was a reflection on how he saw our list. Great 6 players but not great pace and not hugely skilled apart from a couple. I don t expect a huge change next year because of that.

I also think the current board has made a few mistakes especially on this years loss but have done a reasonable job. I would rather a high profile president though as it helps in sponsorship.

The club had little choices on Ball and Max as a decision was made, rightly for Max and in hindsight wrong for Ball, to leave them out of the sides so they left and fair enough on all parties.

Have no idea on BJ but if we dont make the 8 next year he should leave and we should let him.

Rated GT highly but RL was an upgrade as far as coaching was concerned.

Hi Plugger. To me as a club outsider, your above assessment sounds pretty reasonable. So whilst you're on a roll, what is your (and anyone else's) opinion of the Seaford move?

[plugger66]

I honestly believe RL coached to exact plan that he rated the list. He recruited to win a flag and because we failed by such a small margin people now say he has left the list in bad shape. IMO he had no choice but to take the punt as we hardly have a flag winning culture. It was always going to be a struggle to leave the list in a building shape because of the decisions he made. I also think the way we played was a reflection on how he saw our list. Great 6 players but not great pace and not hugely skilled apart from a couple. I don t expect a huge change next year because of that.

I also think the current board has made a few mistakes especially on this years loss but have done a reasonable job. I would rather a high profile president though as it helps in sponsorship.

The club had little choices on Ball and Max as a decision was made, rightly for Max and in hindsight wrong for Ball, to leave them out of the sides so they left and fair enough on all parties.

Have no idea on BJ but if we dont make the 8 next year he should leave and we should let him.

Rated GT highly but RL was an upgrade as far as coaching was concerned.

Hi Plugger. To me as a club outsider, your above assessment sounds pretty reasonable. So whilst you're on a roll, what is your (and anyone else's) opinion of the Seaford move?

Well to me we didnt have a lot of choices as the bloody Kingston council were a disgrace. Maybe if Archie had his time over again we would have just got rid of the 5 or so poker machines they wanted us to lose. As for Seaford the way I see it is that the older players dislike the move as most of them have houses miles from the ground. The young guys dont give a stuff as they just rent in Parkdale and around that area. In the long run it will make no difference at all as players will buy knowing where we train. Did it effect us this year. I doubt it made much difference at all when compared to Duthie, NZ and Losing 2 GF's by less than 2 goals.

[bigcarl]

Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players
AGREE

The move to Seaford is a mistake
DISAGREE

Goddard should be moved on for draft picks
DISAGREE STRONGLY

We've seen the best of most of our senior players
AGREE

- The club treated Luke Ball and Max Hudghton very poorly, giving them no choice but to leave
DISAGREE

The club's culture has not significantly changed since the 1980s
DISAGREE

Good post, but as you can see, totally over-simplistic ... certainly in my case as I fit neither category.

[ThePunter]

I'm sorry if you think I was lumping everything into a category. It was more a comment on how everything around here eventually degenerates into this common point of contention: everything is/was well, or we're all rooned. I fall into neither category too. Good to see many aren't as black and white, but reading a lot of threads, it eventually becomes pages and pages (the quoting doesn't help) or irreconcilable differences and petty arguments over things being good, or being terrible.

[james rose]

Its an opinion business.

None is more right than the other.

For me I fall somewhere in between. I supported Lyon and his quest for our second flag, which was so so close to success.

But now the dust has settled I think it is great that he has moved on and a fresh broom has swept through the place.

I have been critical of the admin for its poor fiscal policies, however I have been fullsome in praise over their handling of this off season so far.

I believe that if you stick to just one belief in the faces of contrary evidence, you are either a rampant egotist, or just plain dumb.

You should call it as you see it. Circumstance is not linear or static. Things change, and with that, if you are athinking person, so should your opinion.

+1 my thoughts as well but I don't think many people come from that direction even if they think they do.


Was a good read Punter- bit of truth to what you're saying too.

[stinger]

my take

I believe:
- Ross Lyon did a good job for most of his time but f***ed up prior to the 2010 final series and continued to f*** up throughout the rest of his tenur. His tactics in the replayed grand final were difficult to accept. , and he was not a clear upgrade from Grant Thomas. Far from it.
- Ross Lyon inherited a great list and turned it into a mediocre one by giving away high draft picks, neglecting talent and playing recycled role-players
- Since lyon's departure, the club is now moving in the right direction, and the move to Seaford is a reflection of that
- The club's core of senior players still have some very good football in front of them, but
- We've seen the best of some of our senior players
- Brendan Goddard will play the rest of his career for St Kilda
- The circumstances leading to the departures of Luke Ball and Max Hudghton were disgraceful and a blight on our club.



no two neat little boxes as you suggest...imhfo....

[Thinline]

IMO Lyon was an astute coach and tactician had a plan that absolutely deserved a premiership. Luck robbed him and us, as it does sometimes. I also believe his personal issues were valid reasons for his departure. He was a breath of fresh air for a while. Hardened us up. Made us real. However his apparent lack of a plan B and his inability to evolve troubled me and I was neither here nor there on his resignation.

[Scollop]

IMO Lyon was an astute coach and tactician had a plan that absolutely deserved a premiership. Luck robbed him and us, as it does sometimes. I also believe his personal issues were valid reasons for his departure. He was a breath of fresh air for a while. Hardened us up. Made us real. However his apparent lack of a plan B and his inability to evolve troubled me and I was neither here nor there on his resignation.

A lack of conviction and planning to win the ultimate...not just win alot of games in H&A is also what 'robbed him and us' - especially '09...Saints were clearly the dominant team in 2009. We didn't lose a match up until Round 20.
What do you think is going to happen to your list of A graders if you run them into the ground to win the McLellan trophy?

Syd 15
Adel 32
WC 97
Frem 83
Port 66
WB 28
Coll 88
Ess 19
Bris 16
Melb 37
NM 46
Carl 9
Rich 56...
Geel 6
WC 20
Adel 57
WB 45
Syd 1
Haw 25
Ess 2
NM 5
Melb 47

It didn't make sense to keep the same line-up out on the park week in week out, when all you need is a top 2 spot. The guys that you demand to lay countless tackles, run and defend the zone, and run and spread time after time, are only going to be able to run up to a limit...Why risk that limit being the last week in September or the second last week? In rnd 19 we had 5 player changes included BJ, Lenny, Monty and Rooy all out and a couple dropped off late including Dal. These drastic changes clearly tell you that it's near impossible to play your best 22 continuously. Why leave it so late???????

If we were to win finals and play off in a Grand Final, surely he needed to try a few young kids from rounds 15 to 20. Why would'nt you try and rest all the guys with a few niggly injuries or all the guys that are showing signs of fatigue and perhaps make sure that they can return and get some momentum with a game or two before the finals. It didn't have to be rest 5 or 6 blokes each week, but just a bit more rotations and a better plan leading up to finals. Armitage and Steven were amongst the best players against the Hawks in Round 19 with Macca aslo playing OK. Ross's lack of confidence in youth was also his weakness. Do you play any of these guys for finals and can they be in your best 22?? Where was the surprise factor from Lyon or the element of uncertainty in bringing in players like Steven into the finals.

The buck stops with the head coach and he didn't plan our finals run well enough in 2009. We lost momentum with our last few games in h&a and we lacked a bit of confidence in our finals wins. Sure we didn't kick straight and everything, but I question whether the underlying factor may have been that the team was tired and the coach didn't rotate enough of the list throughout the year... Imho, I think we peaked way too early.

With the 2010 year, I was so proud of our club and the teams fighting spirit throughout the whole season and the herculean efforts in GF1...the players were brilliant. with GF2, I think again, we needed more soldiers to share the load in H&A...to prevent what eventuated on that very forgetful day for all Saints fans.

[Mr Magic]

IMO the 2009 GF loss was wholly attributable to:-
our missed opportunities - 6 wasted shots at goal
the weather conditions
the injury prior to the game to Roo

It had almost nothing to do with which players we had selected to play during the season.

Your inability to give Lyon any credit for coaching us into the GF in both years is quite astonishing to me.
Like GT before him, criticize him for his faults, but also like GT he deserves to be applauded for his achievments as well.

I don't suscribe to your theory of:-
When we got there it was all due to the magnificent efforts of the players
When we didn't win it was all due to the deficiencies of the coach.

I might humbly suggest that without him we would never have been in the GFs.

[asiu]

i agree on the lack of 'resting/rotating players after top 2 was sealed.
.an opportunity to create from a position of strength , missed.

.... that in itself , became a polarised discussion on SS
the rotators verses the don't flirt with formers.

Meh.

Whats obvious to some is double dutch to others.
What can you do , except hope your leadership is on the ball.

[SainterK]

Not so (red) black and white

[stinger]

A lack of conviction and planning to win the ultimate...not just win alot of games in H&A is also what 'robbed him and us' - especially '09...Saints were clearly the dominant team in 2009. We didn't lose a match up until Round 20.
What do you think is going to happen to your list of A graders if you run them into the ground to win the McLellan trophy?

Syd 15
Adel 32
WC 97
Frem 83
Port 66
WB 28
Coll 88
Ess 19
Bris 16
Melb 37
NM 46
Carl 9
Rich 56...
Geel 6
WC 20
Adel 57
WB 45
Syd 1
Haw 25
Ess 2
NM 5
Melb 47

It didn't make sense to keep the same line-up out on the park week in week out, when all you need is a top 2 spot. The guys that you demand to lay countless tackles, run and defend the zone, and run and spread time after time, are only going to be able to run up to a limit...Why risk that limit being the last week in September or the second last week? In rnd 19 we had 5 player changes included BJ, Lenny, Monty and Rooy all out and a couple dropped off late including Dal. These drastic changes clearly tell you that it's near impossible to play your best 22 continuously. Why leave it so late???????

If we were to win finals and play off in a Grand Final, surely he needed to try a few young kids from rounds 15 to 20. Why would'nt you try and rest all the guys with a few niggly injuries or all the guys that are showing signs of fatigue and perhaps make sure that they can return and get some momentum with a game or two before the finals. It didn't have to be rest 5 or 6 blokes each week, but just a bit more rotations and a better plan leading up to finals. Armitage and Steven were amongst the best players against the Hawks in Round 19 with Macca aslo playing OK. Ross's lack of confidence in youth was also his weakness. Do you play any of these guys for finals and can they be in your best 22?? Where was the surprise factor from Lyon or the element of uncertainty in bringing in players like Steven into the finals.

The buck stops with the head coach and he didn't plan our finals run well enough in 2009. We lost momentum with our last few games in h&a and we lacked a bit of confidence in our finals wins. Sure we didn't kick straight and everything, but I question whether the underlying factor may have been that the team was tired and the coach didn't rotate enough of the list throughout the year... Imho, I think we peaked way too early.

With the 2010 year, I was so proud of our club and the teams fighting spirit throughout the whole season and the herculean efforts in GF1...the players were brilliant. with GF2, I think again, we needed more soldiers to share the load in H&A...to prevent what eventuated on that very forgetful day for all Saints fans.

this post makes a whole lot of sense to me....

[meher baba]

it seems there are very few posters who don't fall into one of these two, obviously overly simplistic but reasonably accurate, groups.

I'm definitely one of the very few

I believe
- The club was totally on the right path in 2001-05 when it was trying to build itself into one of the leading clubs over the long term
- Ideally this strategy would have been maintained, but the feud between RB and GT ruined that prospect
- Moreover, the club changed its mind about the direction it wanted to go in 2006 due to an understandable (but, in my view, unfortunate) impatience to win a flag with the list it had
- On the basis that the game plan had changed to one of winning a flag as as soon as possible, RL was an excellent choice as coach: a selection of near-genius given that nobody could really be sure how good he would turn out to be
- In order to fulfil the mission he was given to win a flag as soon as possible, Lyon took actions that have ruined our prospects of remaining one of the leading clubs throughout the longer term Not his fault: it's the job he was specifically given to do by the Board
- Our long-term prospects were further damaged under Lyon by the many dud decisions made by our list managers and recruiters over that period: including the loss of Ball for nothing (nothing could be done about Max leaving)
- We are going start to fall to the bottom of the table and need to rebuild fairly soon: probably in 2014 at the latest
- But it's worth making 1-2 more all-out attempts to win a flag before we fall
- I have no particular view one way or the other about the move to Searford, other than to make the obvious point that the bayside and southern suburbs of Melbourne from which we need to keep trying to draw the bulk of our supporters
- Whether or not we lose BJ is a matter that is probably out of our hands. We certainly want him to play for us in 2012 and try to win a flag

As for the question of our culture, I believe GT/RB and Waldron did a good job at starting to change it. Lyon wasn't interested in doing anything about culture, because it wasn't his job. Others have not moved in to fill the gap left by Lyon's lack of interest: and some of them were compromised by making bad choices (in terms of our culture) such as letting Ball go and bringing in Lovett.

But I still think the club's culture is much, much better now than it was in the 1980s. For a start, at least our players are not running around with a defeatist attitude.

[Scollop]

i agree on the lack of 'resting/rotating players after top 2 was sealed.
.an opportunity to create from a position of strength , missed.

.... that in itself , became a polarised discussion on SS
the rotators verses the don't flirt with formers.

Meh.

Whats obvious to some is double dutch to others.
What can you do , except hope your leadership is on the ball.

The changes to AFL footy and the laws of the game in the last 10 years, with the emphasis on speed and endurance, with defensive zones etc..has been so profound that I believe the argument for 'not flirting with form' is obselete. Fair dinkum, I think that some of the people who use this saying are just totally ignoring the way AFL footy is played these days. Ross Lyon was too rigid and the fear of losing an insignificant game or two in H&A cost us dearly as we fought and scratched our way into both GF's falling just short in both years.

It's widely accepted with the taxing nature and athleticism required in the modern game that you have to rest and manage some players and you won't get many that will play out the whole year. Surely the cumulative effect of the workload needs to be shared deep into your full list, with some players requiring a rest even if they feel they are right to go. Did some of our guys have niggly injuries or were some of the players selected in the '09 GF suffering from mental fatigue?? Did the coach get the best out of his charges when there were questions on some of the fitness of players?

2009 was definitely an opportunity lost. In 2010 Lyon did a great job helping us get there, but again, the lack of flair or risk taking leading up to finals and the lack of faith in trying some of the younger blokes (to ease the load on the whole palying group) cost us in the end.

[plugger66]

i agree on the lack of 'resting/rotating players after top 2 was sealed.
.an opportunity to create from a position of strength , missed.

.... that in itself , became a polarised discussion on SS
the rotators verses the don't flirt with formers.

Meh.

Whats obvious to some is double dutch to others.
What can you do , except hope your leadership is on the ball.

The changes to AFL footy and the laws of the game in the last 10 years, with the emphasis on speed and endurance, with defensive zones etc..has been so profound that I believe the argument for 'not flirting with form' is obselete. Fair dinkum, I think that some of the people who use this saying are just totally ignoring the way AFL footy is played these days. Ross Lyon was too rigid and the fear of losing an insignificant game or two in H&A cost us dearly as we fought and scratched our way into both GF's falling just short in both years.

It's widely accepted with the taxing nature and athleticism required in the modern game that you have to rest and manage some players and you won't get many that will play out the whole year. Surely the cumulative effect of the workload needs to be shared deep into your full list, with some players requiring a rest even if they feel they are right to go. Did some of our guys have niggly injuries or were some of the players selected in the '09 GF suffering from mental fatigue?? Did the coach get the best out of his charges when there were questions on some of the fitness of players?

2009 was definitely an opportunity lost. In 2010 Lyon did a great job helping us get there, but again, the lack of flair or risk taking leading up to finals and the lack of faith in trying some of the younger blokes (to ease the load on the whole palying group) cost us in the end.

I didnt know that because the players were tired they choked when kicking for goal because it seems to me that was the reason we lost and not because players were mentally fatigued.