I will repeat again - read it slowly....
I did say it was MY OPINION, and that I supported it with FACTS (you called them stats) I stated that he is the most decorated saint and is for a reason....again, can you deny that....
The argent that he was great, only because he played 21 years is flawed......He played 21 years (at a sustained excellent standard) BECAUSE he was great.....infact - remarkable
SOLAR - would Baldock's career have been any better if Breen's wobbly kick did not make the distance and Tuddy ran further with the ball and set up a goal?????? one play by others would have not made him a better or worse player surely.....captaining a P/ship is a great achievement.....but one he was not Directly resonsibe for......
N Burke and R Harvey cant split them
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Mr Magic
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There is none so blind as he who will not see.
No matter how you try to dress it up, you are attempting to portray your OPINION as a FACT and at the same time denigrate any poster who does not accept your OPINION as FACT.
And you can call anybody and everybody who disagrees with you a 'fool' as often as you like but it doesn't change the fact that you have a severely overinflated opinion of your own self worth on here. So severely overinflated that you actually believe that when you post an opinion it is necessarily a fact.
Maybe for the benefit of others on here you should change your sig to read the following:-
I BigMart demand that all readers of saintsational.com accept my opinion as a fact, even if it is nonsense.
In the meantime maybe you should credit those who actually saw Baldock and others play with the intelligence to judge how good a player they were and maybe they have a better insight into their ability than posters like you who didn't see them play?
Or is your knowledge so supreme that you can judge the abilities of every player who's ever played, even if you never saw them play?
No matter how you try to dress it up, you are attempting to portray your OPINION as a FACT and at the same time denigrate any poster who does not accept your OPINION as FACT.
And you can call anybody and everybody who disagrees with you a 'fool' as often as you like but it doesn't change the fact that you have a severely overinflated opinion of your own self worth on here. So severely overinflated that you actually believe that when you post an opinion it is necessarily a fact.
Maybe for the benefit of others on here you should change your sig to read the following:-
I BigMart demand that all readers of saintsational.com accept my opinion as a fact, even if it is nonsense.
In the meantime maybe you should credit those who actually saw Baldock and others play with the intelligence to judge how good a player they were and maybe they have a better insight into their ability than posters like you who didn't see them play?
Or is your knowledge so supreme that you can judge the abilities of every player who's ever played, even if you never saw them play?
I find it funny how you are so sure that I am wrong, which must mean that you think you are right.....ironic...
Reality is that your big compliment was that Banger was able to 'gut run'
I did not even take any notice of who wrote, but labelled that comment as written by 'an ignorant fool' he was a little better than that...you took immediate umbridge....
and have spent the next seven pages trying to discredit me, which I find amusing.....and do not care about.....
I have continually held my stance that IMHO
surely Robert Harvey is the 'the greatest saint' because he dominated for TWO decades.....and his individual achievements outweigh any other by double..not because he could 'gut run' but because he occasionally won the footy aswell, and used it OK...
Your last post is even funnier
someone held the view that
it is a pity that we were having a slanging match about two greats....
YOU AGREED - then continued to slang......can't take the moral high-ground.....then throw in a few cheapies... 
Reality is that your big compliment was that Banger was able to 'gut run'
I did not even take any notice of who wrote, but labelled that comment as written by 'an ignorant fool' he was a little better than that...you took immediate umbridge....
and have spent the next seven pages trying to discredit me, which I find amusing.....and do not care about.....
I have continually held my stance that IMHO
surely Robert Harvey is the 'the greatest saint' because he dominated for TWO decades.....and his individual achievements outweigh any other by double..not because he could 'gut run' but because he occasionally won the footy aswell, and used it OK...Your last post is even funnier
someone held the view that
it is a pity that we were having a slanging match about two greats....
YOU AGREED - then continued to slang......can't take the moral high-ground.....then throw in a few cheapies...
i agree with you st mart....banger is/was our greatest saint.....imho....was he our best , most skillful player...???...no...not in my opinion anyway...and...that's all any of us can give......our opinion......
.everybody still loves lenny....and we always will
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
"Freedom of expression is the cornerstone of a free society,"
However, freedom of expression is not encouraged in certain forums.
Stinger - I am not sure there is a difference between the best saint and the greatest saint......and how you define skill, it has many variables...Reading the game, ball winning, creativity, disposal efficiency???
Magic - I read the post at the top of page 8 more carefully.....and all I can say is.......dear oh dear....(why did you call yourself anybody and everybody, you are the only one with the issue)
I always thought a woman scorned was bitter, I will make sure not to call you a fool again......if you are that sensitive....
Magic - I read the post at the top of page 8 more carefully.....and all I can say is.......dear oh dear....(why did you call yourself anybody and everybody, you are the only one with the issue)
I always thought a woman scorned was bitter, I will make sure not to call you a fool again......if you are that sensitive....
Stinger - I am not sure there is a difference between the best saint and the greatest saint......and how you define skill, it has many variables...Reading the game, ball winning, creativity, disposal efficiency???
Magic - I read the post at the top of page 8 more carefully.....and all I can say is.......dear oh dear....(why did you call yourself anybody and everybody, you are the only one with the issue)
I always thought a woman scorned was bitter, I will make sure not to call you a fool again......if you are that sensitive....
Magic - I read the post at the top of page 8 more carefully.....and all I can say is.......dear oh dear....(why did you call yourself anybody and everybody, you are the only one with the issue)
I always thought a woman scorned was bitter, I will make sure not to call you a fool again......if you are that sensitive....
gunna kick the debate along but put a slightly different slant on things...what did they bring to the team
1/ morrow
2/ burke
both hard nosed, tough at the footy & most importantly team orientated ?
3/ carl
4/ doc
if ya looking for talent & flair ya cant go past these 2
5/ stewart
if ya looking for someone who combined courage,skilled on both sides of the body by both hand & foot,more than capable in the air,skilled at ground level & team orientated (just ask the doc) reckon ya cant go past stewart...after all he is ranked up in the top half dozen players of ALL TIME
doesnt really matter in what era they played
yesterdays champions would be champions today & todays champions would have been yesterdays champions
thats what sets em apart from the pack
1/ morrow
2/ burke
both hard nosed, tough at the footy & most importantly team orientated ?
3/ carl
4/ doc
if ya looking for talent & flair ya cant go past these 2
5/ stewart
if ya looking for someone who combined courage,skilled on both sides of the body by both hand & foot,more than capable in the air,skilled at ground level & team orientated (just ask the doc) reckon ya cant go past stewart...after all he is ranked up in the top half dozen players of ALL TIME
doesnt really matter in what era they played
yesterdays champions would be champions today & todays champions would have been yesterdays champions
thats what sets em apart from the pack
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desertsaint
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Can't and won't comment pre-1978 when i have only seen old highlights of the greats like baldock and stewart et al.
But in my time little doubt plugger was the most awe-inspiring player in the entire afl. But much of his career was at the swans.
As for harvey vs burke - c'mon - loved burkey, an honest, hard at the ball, champion - but harvey was at another level, as his record attests!
IMO Harvey is the greatest saint i have seen - by some way!
But in my time little doubt plugger was the most awe-inspiring player in the entire afl. But much of his career was at the swans.
As for harvey vs burke - c'mon - loved burkey, an honest, hard at the ball, champion - but harvey was at another level, as his record attests!
IMO Harvey is the greatest saint i have seen - by some way!
"The starting point of all achievement is desire. "
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Mr Magic
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Where would you rate Trevor Barker under your criteria Roger?rogerwa wrote:gunna kick the debate along but put a slightly different slant on things...what did they bring to the team
1/ morrow
2/ burke
both hard nosed, tough at the footy & most importantly team orientated ?
3/ carl
4/ doc
if ya looking for talent & flair ya cant go past these 2
5/ stewart
if ya looking for someone who combined courage,skilled on both sides of the body by both hand & foot,more than capable in the air,skilled at ground level & team orientated (just ask the doc) reckon ya cant go past stewart...after all he is ranked up in the top half dozen players of ALL TIME
doesnt really matter in what era they played
yesterdays champions would be champions today & todays champions would have been yesterdays champions
thats what sets em apart from the pack
As courageous a player I've ever seen, willing to always put his body on the line for the team.
In my mind he's probably the only player I've seen who could/would give Robert Harvey a run for his money as our 'greatest player' (not the best, but greatest)
to answer mr magic re barker
there are a host of players we could all put in our top 2 or 3
barker,harvey,lockett,winmar,cowboy,roo the list goes on...we all have different opinions with no ones being more knowledgeable than the next
one thing i should add is that of those that i've mentioned (apart from burke) i saw on a weekly basis in their prime....those that have played from the early 70's till today i may have seen LIVE once,twice,5,10,20 times at max if at all...as we all know tv tells only part of the story
why i've included burke although i may of only seem him play a doz or so games live is what i seen him do OFF THE BALL or in modern speak what he did when we didnt have the footy
pack situation.. umpire calls for a bounce, burke was always the one who grabbed teammate up buy the jumper to make the next contest (hayes does the same)
boundry throwins...once again it was burke seen pointing to teammates where top go ...clapping his hands urging them on etc etc
these are the acts that will not win you a stat but are vital to team success
only seen 2 players in our modern time do these self rewarding team orientated acts...lenny hayes & max
who knows maybe if we threw the fn stat book out the window & replaced it with a team act book we could go all the way & win a flag
then again why give up a cheap stat...looks good in the paper the next day win lose or draw
there are a host of players we could all put in our top 2 or 3
barker,harvey,lockett,winmar,cowboy,roo the list goes on...we all have different opinions with no ones being more knowledgeable than the next
one thing i should add is that of those that i've mentioned (apart from burke) i saw on a weekly basis in their prime....those that have played from the early 70's till today i may have seen LIVE once,twice,5,10,20 times at max if at all...as we all know tv tells only part of the story
why i've included burke although i may of only seem him play a doz or so games live is what i seen him do OFF THE BALL or in modern speak what he did when we didnt have the footy
pack situation.. umpire calls for a bounce, burke was always the one who grabbed teammate up buy the jumper to make the next contest (hayes does the same)
boundry throwins...once again it was burke seen pointing to teammates where top go ...clapping his hands urging them on etc etc
these are the acts that will not win you a stat but are vital to team success
only seen 2 players in our modern time do these self rewarding team orientated acts...lenny hayes & max
who knows maybe if we threw the fn stat book out the window & replaced it with a team act book we could go all the way & win a flag
then again why give up a cheap stat...looks good in the paper the next day win lose or draw
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Mr Magic
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roger, the acts you're talking about could also be called 'on-field leadership'.
I agree with you, Burkie was as good as any I've seen in the past 45 years for 'on-field leadership' whether he was captain at the time or not.
Danny Frawley was also very good at it.
Barker also did it well, maybe not as well as Burke.
But Barks was a real contradiction. Off the field he was the 'poster boy' for the wider football community's image of St Kilda.
Blonde, blue-eyed, nightclub going lad.
But his love of the Saints ran very deep.
He was the standout player in a very ordinary era at St Kilda.
He threw his body into packs when he had no right to.
He never shirked an issue
Nothing asked of him was too much. On the field or off.
And when the Club was desperate fpr money, who was right up the front putting his hand in his own pocket? - Barks.
I agree with you, Burkie was as good as any I've seen in the past 45 years for 'on-field leadership' whether he was captain at the time or not.
Danny Frawley was also very good at it.
Barker also did it well, maybe not as well as Burke.
But Barks was a real contradiction. Off the field he was the 'poster boy' for the wider football community's image of St Kilda.
Blonde, blue-eyed, nightclub going lad.
But his love of the Saints ran very deep.
He was the standout player in a very ordinary era at St Kilda.
He threw his body into packs when he had no right to.
He never shirked an issue
Nothing asked of him was too much. On the field or off.
And when the Club was desperate fpr money, who was right up the front putting his hand in his own pocket? - Barks.
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Mr Magic
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greatest not bestrogerwa wrote:agree mr magic re barker again must stress that i may of only seen him play once or twice (live)
we could all name anyone of a 1/2 doz players & anyone of em could rightly be called our best ever
I maintain that those terms are not interchangeable.
IMHO
'greatest' refers to the contribution the player made to the Club
'best' refers to his skills and football abilities.
would clarkson had been a dud coach if geelong had finished off the hawks in that second quarter? Is judd a great player because chick pinched the ball late in the grand final and won the match?BigMart wrote:I will repeat again - read it slowly....
I did say it was MY OPINION, and that I supported it with FACTS (you called them stats) I stated that he is the most decorated saint and is for a reason....again, can you deny that....
The argent that he was great, only because he played 21 years is flawed......He played 21 years (at a sustained excellent standard) BECAUSE he was great.....infact - remarkable
SOLAR - would Baldock's career have been any better if Breen's wobbly kick did not make the distance and Tuddy ran further with the ball and set up a goal?????? one play by others would have not made him a better or worse player surely.....captaining a P/ship is a great achievement.....but one he was not Directly resonsibe for......
was baldock as captain a better player then stewart? isn't CHF the hardest position in the game? Was harvey better then carey because harvey was a midfield and midfielders always get more brownlow vtes then forwards.
It's like comparing playrs from generations. I have watched baldock do somethings that make me go WOW but could he play at the speed they do these days?
fun things to muse about
cheersFQF
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith
loyal in the good times and bad
In richo I trust
2013 trade/draft best ever?
Billings - future brownlow medallist Longer - future best ruck
Dunstan - future captain Eli - future cult hero
Acres - future norm smith