How did Ross Lyon come to lose his way? (Discussion starter)

[James]

Joffaboy has quite the knack for seeing past what could easily be perceived.

It's obvious that Lyon was in a tough position when things went to hell. Obviously we all needed to show faith in him settling in.

My main gripe is that he tried to change the team to his gameplan, rather than change his gameplan to the team - but either way it's all worked out fine - I also feel that Riewoldt's impact is lessened when he's restricted to make a lead precisely here and there and be here when the ball's there and go there when the ball's here, instead of just doing the hell he wants.

It's all a moot point though really - we're a better team overall and in a better position than when Lyon joined us. I just wish Lyon would use Riewoldt more effectively.

[Milton66]

What a thread to bring back. Talk about funny.

Most notables...

I would love for us to improve & finish in the eight but I cant see it happening, I dont think Ross Lyon is a good coach because he cannot get the most out of his players.. He has failed & I think we will be 'down' for some time cos we have to rebuild again now..

WE MADE THE PRELIM

and then there's...

Ross was doing fine up to the end of the NAB cup, then the board made a decision on our captain, a captain that was chosen because he is marketable, not because the players wanted him.
Lets see were his loyalty is in 2010

SIGNED UP UNTIL 2013

and let's not forget...

But what has made them hesitant when only a 20 months ago they did believe that they could do this? The only common factor from that understanding is Lyon isn't it?

NOW 9-0

and finally...

The leadership group needs to act as an intermediary where required between the players and coaches. Obviously someone like Jack Steven or Eljay Connors isn't going to go up to Lyon or Drain and speak his mind, and be assertive enough to make a difference.

Just to pick a few.

[Richter]

In the last 12 months we have played 22 H&A games with a record of 18 wins and 4 losses.

Whatever has happened RL has steered the ship around.

IMO it shows that both GT AND RL has been proved correct.....

GT........ his assertion that it is key to keep a group of talented lads together and for them to blossom at the same time

RL....... for developing a game plan that works and that the players believe.

The first guy gave us the platform, the second the realistic hope of rising to be the cream.

[saintsRrising]

The first guy gave us the platform, .

If your platform is our low draft picks that are reaching their prime years together....then you should thank Timmy..and not GT.

[saint66au]

While we are at it, I wonder if the SS poster who started the "Sack Ross Lyon NOW' Facebook group this time last year would like to have their time again lol

[saintly]

my belief is thatLyon came in with a plan on how to win a premiership - through defence. that has taken over two years to implement. Last year he had to then get the players to learn to attach as wel as defend. after the the kangroos game both things have clicked in. defen adn attack.

whether it can be kept up for the whole season we won't know this until the end of finals time, but it sure will be an interesting ride!

[Saints Premiers 2008]

this thread is another example of the reactive nature of folk on here

i didnt take anyone remotely clever to see that when we played well it was super and any team would struggle against 3-4 quarters of it and that our major issue then was that it only went on for a half at best

we aren't a quick side by foot, but our good footskills by our better kickers/players allow the ball to fly up the ground without even taking a bounce

oh look...its happening

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Reading back, you can tell that many of the responses to the OP were pretty kneejerk reactions to where we were on the ladder rather than responses to the OP. While bump's are starting to irriitate me, this one's interesting, because it raises the question:

What allowed Lyon to make the transition from coach of an underperformer to coach of a 9-0 runaway train?

While the catalyst and watershed moment may well go down in history as the dropping of Dal and Milne, I suspect it goes deeper, here is what I see as the key differences that is allowing Lyon to shine now where he looked so average a year ago.

- Biggest lesson juxtaposing Lyon against a Roos or a Voss is that it genuinely takes time to understand the dynamics of a group. If you want quick results as a club, hire from within. Everything else that's gone on at St Kilda flows from that. I don't think Lyon, the players, or the fans really understood how deeply a coach has to understand and be part of the group before they can do more than draw on a whiteboard.

- The players have committed to the plan. To make a zone defense work, everyone needs to buy in and play as an 18 man unit, they're doing so, I don't think this was the case 12 months ago.

- You only get selected if you're going to play your role as defined by the coach. The above commitment has meant that isn't requiring Lyon to select an Eddy over a Dal Santo, as Dal and Joey are playing roles as demanded, enabling Lyon... FWIW I speculate this is what's going on with Gram, whose sprayed shots from 55 can be described as selfish. Having the top end expand from 4 guys to 8 guys instead of controlling the bottom 6 is going to help any coach.

- Success has bred success... a decision was made within the group mid last year, they can do their own thing and be a rabble, or do Lyon's thing and see how it goes. Doing Lyon's thing got them to a prelim, and they've re-invested through the preseason in trusting the coach.

- Ross Lyon has won the respect of the group. The best plan in the world doesn't work if players won't execute, and the simplest can be effective if 22 guys buy in. He's gone from frustrated cheerleader to 19th man on the ground.

- It probably doesn't hurt that list turnover has given us a number of guys who either didn't play or barely played for Thomas on the field Now. Ray, Dawson, Schneider, Gardiner, King, Jones and Geary are all providing real value, and could be called "Lyon" players as Thomas was gone when they walked through the doors for the first time.

A year ago, frankly, Lyon had more underperformers than he could afford - proven players who were not getting enough done. Blame for this is not the sole province of either, and hence not really as simple as just looking at the dropping of Milne and Dal - but it makes a worthy line in the sand when you look at the efforts afterward, and especially when you look at the clear commitment this year turning it around to the point where many are playing great footy. From the old guard, Joey, Dal, Blake, and others have clearly bought in.

The sum of it is we've gone from underperforming back to a place where we can debate whether the list is this good, or we're playing over the odds.

Regardsless, I suspect it's a much more enjoyable job for Lyon these days than it was when this thread started.

[Milton66]

The first guy gave us the platform, .

If your platform is our low draft picks that are reaching their prime years together....then you should thank Timmy..and not GT.

The "platform" has come from building a defence base. it has been complimented by adding players who can play down back, hence releasing our better players into more damaging roles.

When all the nervous nellies were calling for Lyon's head, certain posters were being ridiculed as being "blind" followers of the club whn they stated all the reasons why it takes time etc.

One of those was SP2008 and Teflon. It was always going to take time.

As Lethal stated: Get the defence right, and the rest takes care of itself.

This thread should be renamed the "shame File" and all the so called supporters who slagged off should be taken to Linton St in public, where all of us self-righteous, know-all supporters can throw rotten tomatoes at them and shout out "we told you so".

Just kidding.

[Thinline]

I haven't bothered skimming through every page of this, so forgive me if I am repeating previously posted thoughts.

Lyon strikes me as an incredibly astute observer of the game with an eye for the kinds of players he needs to implement what he thinks is a plan that will win premierships.

When he took over, our defensive mechanisms were pathetic.

I strongly believe our list needed to take a step or two backwards to learn some basic things. Forcing a side to play defensive 'stacked back half' footy and or forcing it to play close man on man stoppage footy is a particularly good way to drum in a little accountability, something we didn't have before but now have in spades.

But that was then. Now that the group understands what is required of it, further elements have been added to the St Kilda fundamentals.

In close skills, offensive tackling and the instinctive 'first thought' elements that we have this year been impressed by have slowly but surely crept to the fore as players have matured under the new regime.

I also believe our list management has been incredibly precise. The Dempsters, Schneiders, Rays, Gardiners and Dawsons have proven invaluable contributors.

As for assistant coaches: tried a few, lost a few, no doubt dumped a few, eventually settled on a few that understood, I guess.

This is new St Kilda. The kneejerk taste for the Crippsy's or Burkey's is not part of what we are now. If it were, Banger would be blowing whistles at training. And IMO, that wouldn't be the best thing for a club that needs to evolve and rid itself of its old skin.

[Richter]

The first guy gave us the platform, .

If your platform is our low draft picks that are reaching their prime years together....then you should thank Timmy..and not GT.

The platform GT gave was helping to mould that group of young men to inculcate a sense of loyalty to the club and to each other. You don't need to believe me, read the public utterances of Nick Dal Santo and Nick Riewoldt on the issue.

I think it is sad that you are unable to recognise any contribution GT made to our club. I agree that he wasn't a cluey enough tactical coach to take us further - and I was not unhappy when he was given the boot as the ability to bring the club a flag is the main characteristic that is needed in a senior coach..... but that does not blind me to the obvious positive qualities he brought to bear, particularly in the realm of player personal development.

The St Kilda football club appear to have a genuinely excellent group of young men representing us both on and off field. As a Saints supporter I feel proud of that. Forgive me if I give praise to one of the men I believe was at the heart of that.

[perfectionist]

...
When he took over, our defensive mechanisms were pathetic.....

Not only our mechanisms. The addition of Zac Dawson and Farren Ray must go down as the greatest one year backline bolster of all time.

[bergholt]

i didnt take anyone remotely clever to see that when we played well it was super and any team would struggle against 3-4 quarters of it and that our major issue then was that it only went on for a half at best

i can't be bothered reading the whole thread, but surely these comments apply to 2004-2005 as well. and no grand final appearances to show for that, let alone premierships.

[saintsRrising]

The platform GT gave was helping to mould that group of young men to inculcate a sense of loyalty to the club and to each other. You don't need to believe me, read the public utterances of Nick Dal Santo and Nick Riewoldt on the issue.

I give credit to GT for some things .ie changing the party culture to a more professional outlook and so if that is what you mean by "platform" then I agree with you.

But GT being the cause of our young players staying I do not agree with.

For some of our younger players GT was their first coach and they have fond memories as result.


Reality however is that most players do not switch clubs of their own volition...and putting our players down to only staying with the Saints as being due to GT is IMO is quite fanciful IMO.

Max, Banger. Hayes, Baker, Milne, Blake etc etc......pre GT

Lyon has brought many on board....and Geary , Zac and the like will no doubt go on to play many games for us.


Somewhere sometime some players may decide to leave under Lyon or pull the pin just as they did under GT ie the Young Gun Beetham...or Hall and Everitt...or Black.

[MC Gusto]

humble pie

[barks4eva]

mebabble you're most defineitely one laterally challenged numbnut when it comes to foitball matters at least,

The list was flawed and going backwards by 2006, due to poor recruiting and mismanagement of the football department and piss weak development of the entire list,

2006 in reality if Daniel Motlop and Jason Johnson had of converted easy shots from 15 metres and 25 metres out directly in front we would have just scraped into the 8 in 8th position a, as it is we were knocked out in week one by Melbourne and credited as having finished 8th,

Lyon arrived and immediately read the riot act about who was responsible for all the piss poor recruiting and statde that there were very fundamental things wrong with our list, too many slow players, etc...etc...

Under Thomas the players were taught virtually nothing in regards to structures, don't believe me, just listen to what the players actually say,

this taught them many bad habits and made the side very unaccountable,

Lyon has addressed this,

All of this just does not happen opvernight,

What Lyon and the NEW professional football department have done in just two years is quite amazing,

This was always going to turn around, because Lyon is a fair dinkum real McCoy coach, it just took time to redress the buffoonery of the previous coach and HIS football department,

rememebering Thomas has said that he thinks, fitness and conditioning staff are overrated

but the real question I ask myself is why I would even bother responding to your inane drivel, you are a complete know nothing nuffie and if you'd had your way Lyon would have been sacked by this time last year and Rendell would be coaching us,

FAIR DINKUM,

Get a clue sometime

your inane nonsense and psycho babble is nauseating at best

[saintsRrising]

humble pie

Well at least with the Saints being 9 zip the taste will be sweet

..... at least for most anyway.

[barks4eva]

i didnt read it mb , got a case of the sh!ts and no paitence levels 'going on'

but in my mind ...it's simple sh!t

the kids were sold a ten year plan .....by both 'arms' of the club , told to put in when it was their time to put themselves on the line and that the club would support them ....as team and as individuals
....it was all about the footy ....making their own history

the poor saps actually believed ....and played like it


what they actually got , was a lesson in the realities of big business and brand


dont know about them , but i'm pissed

Not in 2006 they didn't, the wheels had already fallen off and YOU know it

You knew the stories about what some players thought of Thomas and YOU know they are stellar players at that,

Butterss, in sacking Thomas rescued the club, albeit that he was responsible for his appointment to begin with,

NOW we have real substance and not gung ho corporate speak and the like,

Real substance from a real coach with structures, tactical ability and a professional football department, not the dominion of one man,

and keeping in mind the previous football department was run by a guy, who thinks fitness and conditioning staff are overrated,

What exactly are you pissed about and I do mean exactly?

[Richter]

The platform GT gave was helping to mould that group of young men to inculcate a sense of loyalty to the club and to each other. You don't need to believe me, read the public utterances of Nick Dal Santo and Nick Riewoldt on the issue.

I give credit to GT for some things .ie changing the party culture to a more professional outlook and so if that is what you mean by "platform" then I agree with you.

But GT being the cause of our young players staying I do not agree with.

For some of our younger players GT was their first coach and they have fond memories as result.


Reality however is that most players do not switch clubs of their own volition...and putting our players down to only staying with the Saints as being due to GT is IMO is quite fanciful IMO.

Max, Banger. Hayes, Baker, Milne, Blake etc etc......pre GT

Lyon has brought many on board....and Geary , Zac and the like will no doubt go on to play many games for us.


Somewhere sometime some players may decide to leave under Lyon or pull the pin just as they did under GT ie the Young Gun Beetham...or Hall and Everitt...or Black.

Hmmmm, yes I agree with you on both points sRs. However, whilst players are essentially tied to their clubs, I would argue that some clubs do not acquire the sort of psychological bonds of loyalty that I think we see at for example, St Kilda, Geelong, Sydney and Hawthorn. West Coast, whilst having a flag to compensate were decimated by losing Judd and Cousins..... Richmond remain a rabble.

So, I do give GT some credit for being a mentor to many players - you say "young" players - Dal, Roo, Kosi, Ball, Joey, BJ.......etc. are now the reason we are currently doing well.

I suppose to some degree it's a matter of semantics..... I am pleased that you ARE able to praise GT...... but of course then feel the need to follow-up with the usual negatives (which btw I largely agree with) which I don't think help to bring the supporters of the club together........ now we're winning I think it is about to unite, no?

[barks4eva]

So this is a bump,

i thought the babble was regurgitated, I think it best to leave this drivel where it belongs, in the past and not be reminded of it,

gt doll worshippers basically have no clue whatsoever,

[vacuous space]

When he took over, our defensive mechanisms were pathetic.

We were 5th in tackling and 3rd in points against the year before Lyon took over. Our numbers didn't improve significantly in either area until this year. I think our defensive ineptitude under our previous coach is massively overstated on this website. We weren't as good as we are now. We weren't as good as we are now on the 27th of May last year either.

Lyon's record as of the time of the OP: 15-15-1
Since then: 18-4

If you weren't disappointed at the time of the OP, then you weren't paying attention.

[Violent Stool]

Saints fans I'm afraid overrate Ross Lyon quite chronically.

Leigh Tudor not being in the box for the past 2 weeks has resulted directly in the Saints playing a very similar way to the way they did under Lyon previously. And it's not very good.

If you're looking for someone to cast in bronze, then it's a toss up between the fitness guy and Leigh Tudor. Not Lyon.

I think Tudor will be the next great AFL coach. Hopefully it's with the Saints.

[Mr Magic]

Saints fans I'm afraid overrate Ross Lyon quite chronically.

Leigh Tudor not being in the box for the past 2 weeks has resulted directly in the Saints playing a very similar way to the way they did under Lyon previously. And it's not very good.

If you're looking for someone to cast in bronze, then it's a toss up between the fitness guy and Leigh Tudor. Not Lyon.

I think Tudor will be the next great AFL coach. Hopefully it's with the Saints.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with Violent Stool's assesment of RL I do agree with the value of Leight Tudor.

I believe he has had a lot to do with our improvement this year.

And I aslo believe he will not be at tomorrow's game - still not fit to travel.

[Milton66]

How far down the rabbit hole do you really want to go?

It depends on the Fox, I suppose.

[Thinline]

Saints fans I'm afraid overrate Ross Lyon quite chronically.

Leigh Tudor not being in the box for the past 2 weeks has resulted directly in the Saints playing a very similar way to the way they did under Lyon previously. And it's not very good.

If you're looking for someone to cast in bronze, then it's a toss up between the fitness guy and Leigh Tudor. Not Lyon.

I think Tudor will be the next great AFL coach. Hopefully it's with the Saints.

Give reasons, mate.

I'm not sure the last two weeks are evidence enough. Ess was a tired effort against a quick team on a longer turnaround. BL game came down to kicking straight.

Not sure LT would have done much to alter things to be honest.