The Williams Method

[vacuous space]

BUT its not only the dud players we are TO SLOW to recognise - its also players who IMO we are afraid to make the hard decisions on.

I don't think it's even the tough decisions. Somebody like James Gwilt could be playing AFL footy for a team that doesn't have as many good tall defenders as we do. But we'll probably hold onto him in case we lose Hudghton, Maguire, Sam Fisher, Gilbert, Gram and Raph Clarke to a series of unfortunate injuries. We could trade Gwilt for a late pick, elevate Wall as a backup defender and we'd have one extra pick in the bank. I'd also probably rather have Geary on the list than McQualter at this point.

You wanna win a GF - you have to be smart and ruthless and prepared to put up to get.

It's better for the player anyway if you cut them early when they still might catch on with another team. If we'd cut Brooks and Ferguson a few years ago, they might have caught on at another club. Now they're in a spot where if they don't make it here, they're done. Players always want to stay - they don't want to leave their mates or be seen as traitors. Clubs have to push players out before it's too late for that player to get a second chance.

[Beej]

Nick Riewoldt was also selected by st kilda because of his outstanding leadership qualities and mature attitude - much like Chris Judd...smart guy. Sorry you can tell me all day how Grant "instilled his values" blah blah blah ....and I will point all day to his upbringing and his parents..........itd be interesting meeting the Angwins to compare...

A kid with enormous talent and a healthy upbringing doesn't always become a superstar.

At such a young age all it is is simply potential. It still needs to be developed properly. All it takes is for something to go wrong somewhere along the line and that kid could fall by the wayside.

Roo moved away from home to a different state. GT became a father figure. As a footballer you spend more time with your coach than you do your parents and that was certainly the case with Roo.

Look, you've got an opinion on GT and you're sticking to it and fair enough, but to suggest that GT didn't have a major influence on Roo is really petty and smacks of someone holding a grudge imo.

His kicking yips under Thomas werent getting any better - infact they got worse.......to me this year he looked to be finding some rythym in that area....that may not be all Ross Lyon...but it sure as hell wasnt Thomas.

Man manager......pffft...

Haha, you're a real piece of work.

In 2006 under GT he kicked 60.35 (63.2%), 214 marks, and was an All-Australian.

In 2007 under the supercoach he kicked 42.25 (62.7%) 194 marks, and missed out on All-Australian selection.

Please tell me how Ross Lyon has improved his game. The last few games of 07 he seemed to be kicking a bit better but that may have papered over the cracks somewhat because for the majority of the the year Rooey was missing sitters.

I would say he's gone backwards this year, he definitely hasn't improved. However you seem to think Ross Lyon, the goalkicking coach extraordinaire, has been able to not only get the best out of him, but iron out his goalkicking yips too!?

Do me a favour.

[bigcarl]

In 2006 under GT he kicked 60.35 (63.2%), 214 marks, and was an All-Australian.

In 2007 under the supercoach he kicked 42.25 (62.7%) 194 marks, and missed out on All-Australian selection.

Please tell me how Ross Lyon has improved his game.

interesting stats which don't surprise me.

our forward line as a whole underperformed this season ... perhaps it was the "numbers-behind-the-ball" gameplan on which, imo, the jury is well and truly out

i'd prefer a return to a more traditional plan this season and set up a goal-kicking centre and forward line something like this

C: Gram, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: BJ, Roo, Dal
F: Milne, Kosi, Brooks

plenty of goal-kicking potential there and probably robbing our on-ball division a bit by playing dal as a half-forward, but think of what he can add to the scoreboard.

from memory for much of the season we had the worst rate of conversion of inside 50s into scores in the competition. this is one area in which we must improve markedly

[Oh When the Saints]

The fact that Riewoldt played 3 less games should enter that statistical analysis.

In fact, his marks per game and disposals per game were HIGHER this year than they were in 2006.

Just because the All-Australian selectors see fit to select C. Mooney instead of N. Riewoldt doesn't mean that Ross Lyon isn't doing his job properly.

[Mr Magic]

The fact that Riewoldt played 3 less games should enter that statistical analysis.

In fact, his marks per game and disposals per game were HIGHER this year than they were in 2006.

Just because the All-Australian selectors see fit to select C. Mooney instead of N. Riewoldt doesn't mean that Ross Lyon isn't doing his job properly.

To compare his effectiveness solely on the basis of statistics is prone to giving you the result that you are looking for. OLB claims the statistics show Roo had an inferior season based on the 'raw statistics' and yet OWTS uses the same statisitics to prove 2007 was superior to 2006.

The fact is that Roo played a different type of game in 2007 than in 2006. Whilst he was still our CHF, the gameplan saw him ranging far and wide this year and the interesting figure I would like to see is how far he ran in 2007(per game) as against that figure in 2006? I would suspect it was a lot more?

Couple that with the new 'hands in the back' interpretation which would and did see far more free kicks given to Roo which denied him the opportunity to take marks (if that is the statistic we are looking at in this debate?).

It might also explain why the statistic of 'shots at goal' was less in 2007.

[Beej]

Alright, so over a season he was minimally behind in marks and kicks on average, I momentarily forgot we played more games in 06 because we had a dismal year this time around and missed out on finals for the first time in three years, so I apologise. Either way, not surprising when you consider that under Lyon we like to chip the ball around sometimes aimlessly.

I have no doubt that Riewoldt covered more ground in 07, once again due to the different game plans.

18 goals less from your key forward and 28 fewer shots on goal is the damning stat. The fact he averaged slightly more marks and kicks in 07 yet had fewer shots at goal suggests that he wasn't taking marks in dangerous areas. I'm sure opposition coaches would be happy to give him those marks on the wing because they don't hurt on the scoreboard.

Lastly, in 06 Riewoldt was considered to be in the best 18 by All-Australian selectors and this year wasn't deemed good enough to even be on the bench. Those All-Australian selectors have played more games of footy than any of us combined.

No doubt Roo was a lot more damaging in 06.

[Oh When the Saints]

People say we liked to chip it around at times.

We were actually ranked #16 in disposals and #16 in disposals per game in 2007.

We touched the footy the least of any team in the AFL.


So the fact that Riewoldt was able to improve the number of disposals he got in that context (when the team as a whole was getting less) suggests that his impact went up.

He doubled the number of Brownlow votes he received in 2007 - more impact on games? More match-winning games?

I agree he played further up the ground, but you could argue that was a positive, because we were able to use Gehrig and Kosi deeper in the forwardline.


And don't hide behind the All-Australian selectors.

Does anyone really believe that Cameron Mooney had a better year than Riewoldt?


The point is you can spin it both ways using the stats.


Some of Riewoldt's games in the second half of 2007 were outstanding, and in my eyes were some of the best football of his career.

Just my perception and you can disgaree entirely if you want to.

[Beej]

People say we liked to chip it around at times.

We were actually ranked #16 in disposals and #16 in disposals per game in 2007.

We touched the footy the least of any team in the AFL.

Hey, I said we liked to chip it around, I never said we were any good at it.

I agree he played further up the ground, but you could argue that was a positive, because we were able to use Gehrig and Kosi deeper in the forwardline.

No doubt that he's valuable taking marks on the wing, and such is his work ethic that he's unplayable at times... but Riewoldt is more valuable and most influencial, like any other key forward, when he's kicking goals.

If we kicked another 18 goals this season that would probably have been the difference between playing finals and not.

He doubled the number of Brownlow votes he received in 2007 - more impact on games? More match-winning games?

And don't hide behind the All-Australian selectors.

Sorry, the Brownlow is a great award but I would value Gerard Healy's opinion over umpire Kennedy's any day.

[rodgerfox]

No doubt that he's valuable taking marks on the wing, and such is his work ethic that he's unplayable at times... but Riewoldt is more valuable and most influencial, like any other key forward, when he's kicking goals.

But, would he have got the ball as a deep forward had we had no one playing the role he was playing up the ground?

(if you know what I mean!)

[congorozides]

Williams is a top coach and an expert in player development.

Who has Williams developed?

Oh dear. You have to be kidding me.
What Port have done since entering the competition is breath-taking. Im a saints fan but Port dont get the credit they deserve over here because everyone is too buy making bogan jokes about them.
They are not in the Grand Final by fluke. WIlliams is obviously a good coach - you cant just say he has been lucky with injuries. The key is not use injuries as a crutch. WIlliams attitude - and what I like most about him - is that if you are on an AFL list - even if you are number 32 on that list - you are expected to perform at AFL level - if not - then you should not be on the list and you can can go back and play sanfl or vfl or whatever.
its a good attititde. Forget injuries.

[rodgerfox]

Williams is a top coach and an expert in player development.

Who has Williams developed?

Oh dear. You have to be kidding me.
What Port have done since entering the competition is breath-taking. Im a saints fan but Port dont get the credit they deserve over here because everyone is too buy making bogan jokes about them.
They are not in the Grand Final by fluke. WIlliams is obviously a good coach - you cant just say he has been lucky with injuries.

I said he is a very good coach.

The key is not use injuries as a crutch. WIlliams attitude - and what I like most about him - is that if you are on an AFL list - even if you are number 32 on that list - you are expected to perform at AFL level - if not - then you should not be on the list and you can can go back and play sanfl or vfl or whatever.
its a good attititde. Forget injuries.

How did Port go last year with injuries?

Where was the attitude? The development of all these battlers that Williams transformed?

[Persuader]

Love Mark Williams. Great coach and seems to be a top bloke.

[Beej]

No doubt that he's valuable taking marks on the wing, and such is his work ethic that he's unplayable at times... but Riewoldt is more valuable and most influential, like any other key forward, when he's kicking goals.

But, would he have got the ball as a deep forward had we had no one playing the role he was playing up the ground?

(if you know what I mean!)

I know what you mean but it didn't matter in 06. He somehow got the ball in areas where he could kick goals so someone must've been kicking the footy to him.

In previous years he's shown he has the ability to both lead the comp in marks and kick goals. He averaged only 0.5 marks a game more in 07 yet kicked 18 fewer goals.

I think it all boils down to the fact that as a team we didn't kick enough goals and when we don't kick enough goals as a team, naturally, Rooey won't be kicking goals.

Therefore, the gameplan (whatever it is) is responsible for Rooey not kicking the same amount of goals.

[Dan Warna]

mid season analysis by the hun showed our fowards were getting somethign like 50% of their possessions outsdie the F50. and something like 20% possessions in our D50.

but we weren't flooding according to some posters here.

[Beej]

mid season analysis by the hun showed our fowards were getting somethign like 50% of their possessions outsdie the F50. and something like 20% possessions in our D50.

but we weren't flooding according to some posters here.

Forwards getting 50% of their possessions outside the forward 50 speaks volumes. That is truly pathetic. That would mean only 30% of their possessions were inside 50.

20% of our forwards' possessions were inside our defensive 50. Jesus.

I would actually have preferred it if Lyon admitted he was flooding, because if he wasn't, then what on earth was he doing? Does he even know?

[Oh When the Saints]

Wonder what that statistic was like in the second half of the year when we had more than 25 players to choose from each week?

In the second half of the year, Riewoldt kicked 27 goals (54 for the year if doubled) and we were the 8th highest scoring team in the AFL.

So something started to work ... and we won more games.

We were also the most efficient team in the second half of the year - i.e. least number of disposals per goal.



Injuries? Gameplan? Fitness? Intensity? Adjusting to coach?


I suspect it's probably a bit of all of them ...

[congorozides]

How did Port go last year with injuries?

Where was the attitude? The development of all these battlers that Williams transformed?

Ok. Port are rubbish. Wlliams just keeps getting lucky with injuries . Saints are the best chuckout the rest.

Anyone on this website STILL telling me that Hammil is going to play again and harden up our forward line?

[rodgerfox]

How did Port go last year with injuries?

Where was the attitude? The development of all these battlers that Williams transformed?

Ok. Port are rubbish. Wlliams just keeps getting lucky with injuries . Saints are the best chuckout the rest.

Anyone on this website STILL telling me that Hammil is going to play again and harden up our forward line?

That's not what I'm saying, nor what I've ever said.

Port are a very good side. Williams is a very good coach.

However when people look for magical reasons as to why, they look too hard.

[wildgoose]

Rodger, out of the fab 4 of port, 2 Cornes, and 2 Burgoynes, I believe only Peter missed about half of the year.

Look at the development of players such as Rodan, Surjan, Chaplain, Pettigrew, Westhoff, Robbie Gray, Boak. And to a lesser extent Ebert and Motlop. So coaching had nothing to do with there fast development?

Port purposely played there younger players last season, and look how quickly they have developed, plus those few in there first year. Yes they haven't had many injuries, but there development of those 9 players has been so quick.

[saintsRrising]

If the rumour about Hardwick being appointed as the Essendon Coach is true....that will mean that Williams will now have had his THIRD assistant appointed as an AFL head coach.


Personally I think Williams is EXCEPTIONAL at developing people....whether it be players or assistant coaches.

[rodgerfox]

Rodger, out of the fab 4 of port, 2 Cornes, and 2 Burgoynes, I believe only Peter missed about half of the year.

Look at the development of players such as Rodan, Surjan, Chaplain, Pettigrew, Westhoff, Robbie Gray, Boak. And to a lesser extent Ebert and Motlop. So coaching had nothing to do with there fast development?

Port purposely played there younger players last season, and look how quickly they have developed, plus those few in there first year. Yes they haven't had many injuries, but there development of those 9 players has been so quick.

I've never said coaching had nothing to do with development.

You'll find that I've said in this thread, and others, that Mark Williams is a very good coach.

What you'll also find, is that young guys and previously average footballers tend to look good and appear to come on quickly when a side's gun players are up and about.

The guns get all the attention, leaving the lesser lights to battle it out with the leftovers of the opposition.

Check out Milne's form when Hamill was in the forward line, compared to when he wasn't.

Check out Joey's form when Lenny is in the side. Then check it out when he gets the best tagger.

Dal ditto. When Dal was an 'up and comer' everyone was going crazy about him, because he played in a midfield with Powell, Hayes, Harves and Ball.

A year or two later when Dal started to get the best tags, suddenly he doesn't appear to be the player he was.

Geelong are the same. Stokes, Byrnes and Selwood are having good years - but two of them are genuine duds. They are playing well now as they get the opposition's worst players each week.

Take out Chapman, Ablett and Bartel and match up say Cornes, Burgoyne and Cassisi on these guys and we'd soon see the players they really are.