The Williams Method

[Oh When the Saints]

After season 2005, let's apply the Mark Williams method to the St Kilda list.

Delist/retire: A. Jones, J. Peckett, S. Powell, F. Gehrig

In 2006, blood Gilbert (10 games), McQualter (20 games), Gwilt (15 games), Sweeney (10 games), Raph (20 games), Watts (15 games), Brooks (15 games), Ferguson (15 games).

Stick Kosi at FF and play Gram through the midfield. Rest any injured players (e.g. Maxie, X, Raph) after Round 15.

Miss the finals and load up for a big pre-season with a bunch of kids who all have 15-20 games experience.

Come out in 2007 with a great mix of youth and some seniority and make it to a Grand Final.


Interesting ...

(and sure to promote a six-page heated discussion)

[Iceman234]

Only one I disagree with is G. Would still have him there next year if I had a say.

Anyone else listed - yes - run them and see how they stood up.

[chook23]

OWTS

in theory maybe

are/were the drafted players equal in ability

would the players have been developed as well as PA players

chocco is known to be one of the best developers/teachers of the game.

IMO one of the weaknesses of GT

[saintsRrising]

OWTS


chocco is known to be one of the best developers/teachers of the game.

IMO one of the weaknesses of GT

Exactly....

There are only so many 'Ready -made" players.

A GOOD coach is one that can develop his players..

Freinge players into GOPS..
Gops in good players..

Good players into very good players...




He also develops the type of players required......to builda better team.

While we were talikng Willimas cast offs...he has been continually trying players and improving them...and discarding them if they are not good enough.

The Saints have been content to give ordinray players too many gams rather than look to develop better players.

[Oh When the Saints]

Yep chook23, spot on.

Still, would have loved to see how Williams handled our list post 2005 were he in charge.


All hypothetical now.

[Spinner]

Williams has always been underrated.


One of the best...If not the best coach in the AFL.


And with a personality. Publically sticking it up Scott when he truely deserved it.

[Spinner]

For whats its worth....GT developed the likes of Riewoldt, Ball and Dal Santo mgnificently.


It was only those players that required a talented developer that suffered.


IMHO the likes of Riewoldt and Ball would never have grown into the players they are now if it was not for GT.

[Oh When the Saints]

Correct on the first account Spinner ...

Not sure where RL sits yet ... he seems to have improved Fiora, Attard and Blake (all fringe players), so hopefully he proves to be a decent development coach.

Don't under-estimate Dean Bailey at Port Adelaide.

Was development coach at the Bombers 99-00, then midfield and development coach at Port until this year.


I reckon he will do very well at Melbourne.

[Teflon]

For whats its worth....GT developed the likes of Riewoldt, Ball and Dal Santo mgnificently.


It was only those players that required a talented developer that suffered.


IMHO the likes of Riewoldt and Ball would never have grown into the players they are now if it was not for GT.

Thats rubbish.

Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo are stars - they were ALWAYS gonna be stars as they have the natural talent for 2.

What Mark Williams does is he takes a Rodan and aboslutely adds another dimension to his game that a previous AFL club could not. The guy is a great coach but more iomportantly an excellent DEVELOPER of talent an to turn this side round in 2 yrs is remarkable.

Grant Thomas is not in the same league...on either score.

[evertonfc]

One of my absolute favourite people in footy.

Why? Because he loves football, and he understands it. He loves the challenge of football, and lives to win.

He epitomises everything I want to see in a coach. Passionate, articulate, driven, methodical and focussed.

He's a snake at the draft, a fighter at the trade table and believer in perpetual list regeneration. He understands the management of football and footballers.

But he's tactically smart, too. He knows the limitations of players and being able to extract the right things from players.

I sincerely doubt many coaches could have extracted much more than GT did from our last list...but I'd love to have seen what MW would have done with it.

Also, saintsRrising, your call over his player development skills is spot on. You just know if there's talent to be extracted from a player, he'll get it out of them. Very few players kick on after failing with Port (although one of those select few might be a premiership captain come Saturday night ).

I don't believe he planned for Port to be a contender this year, but that he would do his best to extract what he could from his playing group. In such a soft year of footy, it's enabled him to have a crack at a flag. They're still a few years from their peak.

He calls a spade a spade, he wears his heart on his sleeve and he's a winner. He would have hated what happened in the 'choker' years and didn't relent until they got it right.

A superstar coach and one of footy's best blokes.

Don't under-estimate Dean Bailey at Port Adelaide.

Was development coach at the Bombers 99-00, then midfield and development coach at Port until this year.

I reckon he will do very well at Melbourne.

I'll be really interested to see what he does coming from that environment. Will he step up or be the next Brittain?

Just as interesting will be to see what happens to Mark Riley, one of the most impressive individuals I've listened too this year.

I'd have loved to see him come to us in a development role. I think he'd be magnificent in the right setting.

[Oh When the Saints]

Sensational post evertonfc.

Would love Port to win the flag this year ... it would be one of the few flags where a large part of the success could be attributed to the coach.


Interesting to note that Jason Cripps has been credited with the development of Rodan and Westhoff.

[Spinner]

For whats its worth....GT developed the likes of Riewoldt, Ball and Dal Santo mgnificently.


It was only those players that required a talented developer that suffered.


IMHO the likes of Riewoldt and Ball would never have grown into the players they are now if it was not for GT.

Thats rubbish.

Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo are stars - they were ALWAYS gonna be stars as they have the natural talent for 2.

What Mark Williams does is he takes a Rodan and aboslutely adds another dimension to his game that a previous AFL club could not. The guy is a great coach but more iomportantly an excellent DEVELOPER of talent an to turn this side round in 2 yrs is remarkable.

Grant Thomas is not in the same league...on either score.

Teflon,


Re-read my post with the with the knowledge that I was being extremely sarcastic.


Nonetheless it seems we share the same opinion on the topic.

[evertonfc]

Sensational post evertonfc.

Cheers....and thanks for starting the thread...I've wanted to do it for quite some time but I feared it wouldn't be well recieved...

Would love Port to win the flag this year ... it would be one of the few flags where a large part of the success could be attributed to the coach.

Absolutely. Love that factor, too. For that very reason, I'm really finding it hard to see them getting beaten this week.

Interesting to note that Jason Cripps has been credited with the development of Rodan and Westhoff.

Started a thread on that recently...I reckon Crippa's benefit to a player's mental development would be outstanding.

Would love to get him to absorb MW's style and bring it back to us in some role in the not-too-distant future.

[Teflon]

For whats its worth....GT developed the likes of Riewoldt, Ball and Dal Santo mgnificently.


It was only those players that required a talented developer that suffered.


IMHO the likes of Riewoldt and Ball would never have grown into the players they are now if it was not for GT.

Thats rubbish.

Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo are stars - they were ALWAYS gonna be stars as they have the natural talent for 2.

What Mark Williams does is he takes a Rodan and aboslutely adds another dimension to his game that a previous AFL club could not. The guy is a great coach but more iomportantly an excellent DEVELOPER of talent an to turn this side round in 2 yrs is remarkable.

Grant Thomas is not in the same league...on either score.

Teflon,


Re-read my post with the with the knowledge that I was being extremely sarcastic.


Nonetheless it seems we share the same opinion on the topic.

sorry Spinner - been asleep for 2 weeks and daydreaming watching Collingwood/Girlong battle for our spot.

[Beej]

Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo are stars - they were ALWAYS gonna be stars as they have the natural talent for 2.

Rubbish.

You realise how many highly talented kids have not made the grade? Top ten draft picks who are languishing in lower leagues? Go through all the drafts and for every superstar there are twenty who haven't realised their potential.

Talent, no matter how immense it may seem, needs to be nurtured. Players who are in their formative years as AFL footballers need to be taught, developed, disciplined or they become the next Ashley Sampi or Kepler Bradley.

And conversely, you might get a player like Justin Westoff, highly unfancied (pick 71), taken by a club with the right people around him to allow his talent, as raw as it is, to flourish.

Maybe Caydn Beetham, in different surroundings under a different coach who was able to reach him and get the best out of him, could've played 200 games and been an All-Australian.

To say that a player was ALWAYS going to be a star is ridiculous. Some players have a better chance due to their attitude and their ability to learn, for sure, but a lot of hard work goes on behind the scenes with every champion. There isn't a single coach in the universe who would disagree with what I'm saying.

[mischa]

Port Adelaide also have a lot more money, staff and much better facilities (Hey Rod?)-it helps. Nevertheless it took him a while from his appointment to win that elusive premiership. What professional clubs like PA have is patience.

[rodgerfox]

Once again, the two teams that are in the GF have talent - but actually have the talent available.

The players getting Port over the line are genuine superstars....

Lade
Chad Cornes
Kane Cornes
S Burgoyne
P Burgoyne

Throw in one of the best FBs in the comp in Daryl Wakelin, 2 Rising Star winners and an AA Premiership Captain, and you have a pretty decent side.


However, when a few of them can't get out on the park - they miss the 8.

Ditto Geelong.


I really rate Williams - however like any coach, when his best players aren't available his team looks below average.

[Beej]

Port bowed out of the finals in three consecutive years after making two preliminary finals and a semi final. The following year they won a flag.

Where would they be now if they lost patience with Williams and sacked him after 2003? Probably without that flag I would say.

[rodgerfox]

Where would they be now if they lost patience with Williams and sacked him after 2003? Probably without that flag I would say.

Definately.

It takes a couple of years minimum to gain momentum after a new coach comes on board.

[spert]

Williams is a top coach and an expert in player development. I disagree about GT developing Roo, NDS especially as I think NDS made little progress under GT, we just saw his natural skill, but in three seasons he hasn't gone the expected next step. Roo would have been a star regardless. I think Ball is a great young player with a top attitude, but not he star some make out and unless he overcomes his injury issues, he may struggle.

[rodgerfox]

Williams is a top coach and an expert in player development.

Who has Williams developed?

[Oh When the Saints]

Pearce, S. Burgoyne, Cassisi, Westhoff, Brogan, Mahoney, Pearce, Motlop


To name a few ...

[rodgerfox]

Pearce, S. Burgoyne, Cassisi, Westhoff, Brogan, Mahoney, Pearce, Motlop


To name a few ...

Motlop was a gun at North. And in my view, hasn't really improved much from that anyway.

Brogan wasn't much chop when Lade was out injured.

Mahoney disappeared when Tredrea was out injured.

As for Pearce and Cassisi, they have the luxury of playing behind Cornes, and the Burgoynes, and Carr when he was there.

As for Shaun Burgoyne, with his physical attributes he was always going to be a player.

Westhoff is a plodder at this stage. Has talent, but it's too early to say he's been developed into a good player.


My point is, when your guns are up and running, the second and third stringers look the goods.

Last year when they had injuries, where were all these brilliantly developed players?


I don't think he's developed any more players than most other coaches.

All he's shown, is that like every other coach and every other club - when you have injuries you're stuffed.

[Oh When the Saints]

rodgerfox, I could put a completely different spin on each of those names that made it seem as if Williams had a lot to do with their development.

Doubt it will change your opinion.


I do agree with you that second and third stringers look better when you have a full compliment of players in ...

[Dan Warna]

concur to some degree with rodgerfox.

when judd/cousins/kerr/embley were out, the WCE second stringers didn't look as brilliant.

headcase away from voss, lappin, black, johnson etc suddenly didn't look so brilliant.

black as good as he is, looks far more limited now that he is carrying the brisbane midfield than when he was part of a fabulous team.

IMO, port look good because they are playing team football.