Where's the 'Lyon Toughness'??

[maverick]

Carn_Sainter - we have a list full of players that can take physical punishment, which makes them courageous and tough, absolutely no doubt.

We have one, maybe two players that initiate the contact, this is a far different attribute. This I think is difficult to teach.

We need a few mongrels, players that as part of what they do if they hurt others, its no big deal. Hamill is one, Bakes probably another, Powell was one and so was Black. We miss this.

Toughness is the wrong word, its the applying of it that's just as important.

[The Fireman]

Utter tripe playing the man as usual because you can't argue the point.

Ok, Then can you answer this?

Do you know that we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge?

Mods, can we please move this to the Grant Thomas Forum?

My god I get bored of hearing his name in every thread.

Sometimes you have to look back to move forward, JD is correct we are down in the tackling dept, we certainly don't look as tough on field as we did when we were winning more games and it definitely has something to do with our game plan. Under GT the players trusted their team mates down field to get the pill so they attacked directly, all we seem to do now is run around like chooks with their heads cut off more interested in defending than taking our chances.
Our kicking skills for goal is another issue which has me completely stumped, was listening to the game on radio (working) could only get to the radio for only a few minutes, heard X get the mark in front of goal and thought to myself he'll miss it. How bad is it that?

[snoopygirl]

12 months ago I would have added Lenny to the list, but he just seems to be playing a more subdued role now. Can't quite put my finger on it, but I want the old Lenny back giving off the don't argues & dishing it out each week.

[meher baba]

A lot of the players who we constantly hear about as being tough - Sammy, Lenny, Bakes, even Gehrig - have had a habit of frequently becoming an item on the agenda of the match review panel.

In the era of a score of high-definition TV cameras filming every game, engaging in biffo - even the so-called "showing the flag" in response to the biffo of opponents - is a high risk, low return activity. Captain Blood and other lesser tough guys of his ilk would have been driven out of the game in the modern era.

I don't think too many clubs would even be interested in the Scott brothers or Dermie or if they were starting their careers now. You simply can't afford to have your best players sitting in the stands for a significant part of every season: which is guaranteed nowadays unless you play for a protected club like WCE or the Swans and can mount some ludicrous defence (I punched him in the guts, but it was ok because it was "in play" or "I wasn't trying to hit him in the nuts, I was going for his injured arm, so it wasn't intentional").

I don't think we need more physical toughness, or even mental toughness. What we need - as I have said in another thread - is for our players to need to learn how to convert our opportunities into goals and get far enough ahead of our opponents early in matches to take the pressure off us later on.

[The Fireman]

I don't think we need more physical toughness, or even mental toughness. What we need - as I have said in another thread - is for our players to need to learn how to convert our opportunities into goals and get far enough ahead of our opponents early in matches to take the pressure off us later on.

We do.. at the ball and the ball carrier ' I'm not talking about off the ball toughness, not stuff that is reportable, accountability toughness.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Some fools will want to talk game plans and tactics until the cows come home. It is the catch cry of the person who has never played footy at a reasonable level.

Conversely, some simpletons will want to relegate such discussion to the scrapheap and pretend a game of AFL - where all skills (including toughness) are at levels unsighted in other competitions - are similar to the games they played as kids, or bears some resemblance to the games their kids play now.

Toughness? The Saints won enough possession to beat the Swans, and the Dogs, and the Magpies. They won the ball, and then they turned it over. They failed to challenge the Swans possession enough to get it back late in the game, so if you are referring to this as toughness, then I agree... but barring the players taking responsibility (generation Y style), then it appeared on TV to be a tactic employed by the Swans (as it was the week before by the Dogs) that Lyon's Saints had no answer for.

I won't bemoan it if the Saints get tougher (mentally, physically, or just meaner), but even as far as "Ross Lyon" skills are concerned, I can't put it ahead of accountability (too much uncontested possession for the opposition) and I can't put it ahead of basic skills (woeful disposal) where the Saints fell down, IMO, on Saturday night.

[Animal Enclosure]

The accountability aspect of Lyon's coaching is a mystery to me... it seems that he preaches accountability (in my book that means taking responsibility for a man, ie; man on man) yet his mega flood results in players guarding space rather than an opposition player.

The biggest issue with this is the uncontested ball that opposition players get is usually the result of a foot pass FORWARD, rather than sideways or backwards. This means the opposition can move the ball forward slowly, which is probably the idea. Where this idea comes apart is due to the opposition 'line breakers' being able to kick OVER our mass of flooded players, which usually set up camp between 30-60 metres out from goal. A long kick to the top of the square allows a one on one or two on two or even a uncontested player on the lead.

This has happened every week, hence our terrible defensive record. The practice of flooding has been effective and still is, against us because opposition teams set up their zones from 10-60 metres out & give Roo, Fraser & Kosi no space. Either our blokes are bludging & not getting far enough deep or the coaching panel are too busy thinking up smart lines to use at press conferences.

The practice of corralling an opposition player has the same effect...it just gives players more time to sum up where to kick or handpass to... the really good teams come at you & don't give you a split second to think. No wonder our tackle count is down.

[carn_sainter]

While you can get ALL players to play harder, tackle more etc....some players are just naturally pre-disposed to being mean bas****.

Baker was not taught to be mean & fierce....nor was Sammy...

and no matter how much you coach you will NEVER turn players such as Harvey, Dal or Fiora into mean bast****. This does not lessen their value or role as you do not need or want 22 mean bast**** but you need more than we currently have.


Cannot draft mean bast***s?????

i said don't...you don't draft a tough guy just because he's tough

brad miller acts like a tough guy...dean soloman too...the list of talentless hot heads runs deeper than the list of talented players who learn toughness

colin sylvia was naturally tough, as you say, in juniors and is nothing nowadays


and where is this formula for tough guys needed?

i'd rather players who play well, regardless of their off the ball, puffed up chest capery

i don't care when hayes grabs a guy but the neck for some jumper punches, its futile...i care that he chases and tackles

you'd prefer gilbert to start being a tough guy? an off the ball shoving tough guy?

personally, i hate these sort of players and really don't think they're at all needed

you get good footballers, teach them the importance of pressure and tackle etc...and thats all you need


so, to be clear, you want a mean bastard as you say...a big bad bully who's gonna scare all the other adult elite sportsmen...?

who cares - toughness is the key...running, tackling, attitude etc...

if you want to watch a guy push and shove like he's hercules, they have plenty of those at suburban reserves level

pushing and shoving - all the things that separate a tough player from a mean bastard - really add very little and in my view, actually nothing

[saintsRrising]

...you don't draft a tough guy just because he's tough

fully agree.....if you can't play footy you should not geta game..


I am not talking pushing and shoving....but for eaxmple a well executed hip and shoulder and running througha player (legally) when you have the chance.

Mean bast**** do it.....fair players like Harvey do not.


But we will have to disagree on the need for mean bast***.

My view is having a player or two such as Hamill in the 22 lifts the others around him...

Hamill's value to me is more than his skill asa footballer...it is also the value he adds as a mean bast***.

sometimes it findsa chink in the oppostion...sometime it just makes your own guys put in more...sometimes both...

Teams to me witha few (ie not the whole team) mean bast**** in them just seem to go better.

[spert]

Being the best tackling team didn't win us flag a couple of years back, its a lot deeper than that. One big problem is our engine room in the middle, it runs out of gas too easy and when that happens it can't deliver the ball with any penetration. Much and all as Dal Santo and Hayes are talented, they haven't learn't to shake quality taggers and that's two of our engine room who need to fire for us to win. I think Lyon will know from this year's effort about who has the toughness mentally and physically needed to go the next step.

[maverick]

While you can get ALL players to play harder, tackle more etc....some players are just naturally pre-disposed to being mean bas****.

Baker was not taught to be mean & fierce....nor was Sammy...

and no matter how much you coach you will NEVER turn players such as Harvey, Dal or Fiora into mean bast****. This does not lessen their value or role as you do not need or want 22 mean bast**** but you need more than we currently have.


Cannot draft mean bast***s?????

i said don't...you don't draft a tough guy just because he's tough

brad miller acts like a tough guy...dean soloman too...the list of talentless hot heads runs deeper than the list of talented players who learn toughness

colin sylvia was naturally tough, as you say, in juniors and is nothing nowadays


and where is this formula for tough guys needed?

i'd rather players who play well, regardless of their off the ball, puffed up chest capery

i don't care when hayes grabs a guy but the neck for some jumper punches, its futile...i care that he chases and tackles

you'd prefer gilbert to start being a tough guy? an off the ball shoving tough guy?

personally, i hate these sort of players and really don't think they're at all needed

you get good footballers, teach them the importance of pressure and tackle etc...and thats all you need


so, to be clear, you want a mean bastard as you say...a big bad bully who's gonna scare all the other adult elite sportsmen...?

who cares - toughness is the key...running, tackling, attitude etc...

if you want to watch a guy push and shove like he's hercules, they have plenty of those at suburban reserves level

pushing and shoving - all the things that separate a tough player from a mean bastard - really add very little and in my view, actually nothing

Tough guy I am talking is a guy like Hodge, who is not only good but a mongrel while he is at it.

[duckduckduckgoose]

This has happened every week, hence our terrible defensive record.

Um what?

Our defense has been great this year considering the injuries we have had.

statistically we have the 6th best defense in the league.

Not sure where this terrible defense record comes from?

[saintsRrising]

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Thank good we were "stooged" then...

[Goose is king]

In an industry where one week changes peoples perspectives on so much why SaintsRrising both bringing this up

[evertonfc]

Ross Lyon's first year in charge was hard to take on many different fronts.

These were my summations from around the same time as this thread.

I don't want us to be another Sydney, even if there's a flag in it.

See, I agree with most things in this thread, but I'd flood 24/7 if it meant we could win a flag.

Seriously, we shouldn't have sacked Thomas - it's clear it wasn't football related (watch RB's warriors jump all over that call). I think most people see that. However, that's no excuse for not backing RL if he does the right things.

Sadly, he's making a lot of mistakes early in his tenure. I'm prepared to give him time before jumping on him, but some of his strategies are not what I'd associate with good coaching.

Why you'd flood doubly as hard when chasing a result, against Sydney of all teams, is Tim Watson-esq.

There's a lot of rough edges to Ross's game plan and he needs to realise what it takes to create a hard and fast team, not just one who floods for the sake of flooding.

Don't get me wrong, defensive football is extremely important, and we lacked it sometimes under GT. It's about balance - and we've definitely not got it. Steps must be taken to rectify it. West Coast, Geelong and the Kangaroos have proven that whilst a strong defence is vital, kicking goals is still the name of the game.

I used to think no matter what, we could kick a winning score. I don't know about that any more. It's a bit scary.

Still, we must give RL time, even if we don't trust him yet.

My final thought would be that when he was hired, I said we'd probably fall just short of the eight as a result of his appointment. It seemed like an outrageous time to change coaches; surely you'd wait for the incumbant to run his course, not usurp him after three straight finals series. It was a confusing decision, explained badly to the club's members and still unvindicated to this day.

I also felt it would hurt the incoming coach, whoever it was. And to hire him during trade week - and not before - was the icing on the cake. GT was dudded and, as a result of subsequent delays, RL was hamstrung.

Everybody lost out, and I feel sorry for the fans, the players, Grant Thomas and Ross Lyon.

Bad off-field decisions have hurt this club more than any of RL's tactics, to be honest.

[Teflon]

interesting reading....more interesting reading the current back peddlars and how could they ahve ever known....LOL.

Ross Lyons 1st year as coach was exactly that - the first year of a rookie coach who needed time to take over a list, re-educate it, re-shape it and fill in some holes BEFORE we'd ever see what we have seen thus far.

This thread should be the SS training thread for new posters to learn "how to not shoot your bolt to early".......as many here did

[evertonfc]

Maybe we should have given Watson a third year...

[Teflon]

Maybe we should have given Watson a third year...

I like Tim. Hes had the grace to since declare he just wasnt up to it - gets my respect for that. That vindicates his departure....that also helped those that followed enormously...

[saint66au]

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Thank good we were "stooged" then...

sRS....honestly..is there any point in dragging up ancient threads 8 months later purely for a bit of "told you so" point scoring??

We all probably said things back then we'd take back or alter if we had our time again now..so what?

All this does is open sores and inflame old arguments

Let the past live in the past eh? For the sake of a bit of peace around here

[meher baba]

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Thank good we were "stooged" then...

sRS....honestly..is there any point in dragging up ancient threads 8 months later purely for a bit of "told you so" point scoring??

We all probably said things back then we'd take back or alter if we had our time again now..so what?

All this does is open sores and inflame old arguments

Let the past live in the past eh? For the sake of a bit of peace around here

Well said saint66au.

And I notice that me old mate toysRus doesn't bother to dredge up any of the ancient threads in which he went on and on about how the list was completely ruined.....................

[rodgerfox]

This is a bit odd??

I just re-read the OP and it's as close to 100% accurate as you'll find.


Why has this been bumped? To make me look like a modern day Nostrodamus?

[InkerSaint]

sRS....honestly..is there any point in dragging up ancient threads 8 months later purely for a bit of "told you so" point scoring?

8 months? Ehh... try 18.

This is just plain vindictive.

RL / GT bashing? Butters / Westaway? Are we over this sort of stuff yet, or what?

Old news. Move on.

[markp]

when you spend all day thinking about what you're supposed to do, as opposed to what comes naturally in the heat of the moment, you lose your edge.

Our guys, our naturally brilliant footballers are completely and utterly at sea whilst on the field. Even in the games we've won, we've still looked 'Ok'.

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Utter tosh then.... utter tosh now.

[rodgerfox]

when you spend all day thinking about what you're supposed to do, as opposed to what comes naturally in the heat of the moment, you lose your edge.

Our guys, our naturally brilliant footballers are completely and utterly at sea whilst on the field. Even in the games we've won, we've still looked 'Ok'.

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Utter tosh then.... utter tosh now.

I disagree completely.

I think it's 100% accurate. Definately was then, and considering the changes to the way we're playing, and the results we're seeing as a consequence it's even more precise now.

I'm confused as to why SrR bumped this thread.

The OP is absolutely spot on. 110% spot on.

I would have thought our results now prove that.


Odd.

[markp]

when you spend all day thinking about what you're supposed to do, as opposed to what comes naturally in the heat of the moment, you lose your edge.

Our guys, our naturally brilliant footballers are completely and utterly at sea whilst on the field. Even in the games we've won, we've still looked 'Ok'.

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

Utter tosh then.... utter tosh now.

I disagree completely.

I think it's 100% accurate. Definately was then, and considering the changes to the way we're playing, and the results we're seeing as a consequence it's even more precise now.

I'm confused as to why SrR bumped this thread.

The OP is absolutely spot on. 110% spot on.

I would have thought our results now prove that.


Odd.

You commented in your very own report about the defensive players now obviously being drilled to punch the ball away as a first instinct... or was that part of their natural game all along?

What about all the other (now famous) defensive pressure we apply?

How were the board more concerned about the bottom line than what was going on on the field?....

Which part of that statement is 110% spot on?