Where's the 'Lyon Toughness'??

[rodgerfox]

We heard alot of garbage late last year form our club about 'talking to Gen-Y' and 'taking the next step' etc. etc. etc.

Some were sucked in by it, and still are. Most aren't. Those that are sucked in, are getting nervous. Thos who weren't, are now getting very annoyed. We are furious.

The one thing that I was happy about, was the 'toughness' that Ross Lyon was supposedly going to bring to this team.

I've been very critical of our mental and physical toughness over the past 3 years, but we have never been more insispid in endeavour, mental toughness and physicality than we have been this year.

So, the question is - where is the toughness?

Are we just far too focused on strategies? On filling space? On being accountable? On playing 'tempo footy'?

Are we too focused on the above that we simply have forgotten how to go out there, have a crack and play footy - try to kick goals and smash our opponents in every aspect?

We are clearly too concerned on what our opposition do or don't do.

We must focus on what we can or can't do.

Some fools will want to talk game plans and tactics until the cows come home. It is the catch cry of the person who has never played footy at a reasonable level.

When it comes down to it, it's intensity that wins games, finals and GFs. when you spend all day thinking about what you're supposed to do, as opposed to what comes naturally in the heat of the moment, you lose your edge.

Our guys, our naturally brilliant footballers are completely and utterly at sea whilst on the field. Even in the games we've won, we've still looked 'Ok'.

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field.

Infact, I'm certain of it.

[duckduckduckgoose]

We must focus on what we can or can't do.

what we as supporters cant do is give up on a coach who hasn't even been in the job for 12months.

for better or worse we have made this decision to let Ross Lyon execute his ideas and hopefully win us a flag in the process.

Im reserving judgement on RL until he has had the time/opportunity to get together a list he thinks can win us a flag.

[maverick]

The naturally brilliant footballers on our list, all two of them, will be 1 & 2 in the B&F this year and maybe both AA. Hardly all at sea.

How many times do you want to write the same thing?

Wouldn't be too many on here "sucked in" by you that's for sure...

[rodgerfox]

The naturally brilliant footballers on our list, all two of them, will be 1 & 2 in the B&F this year and maybe both AA. Hardly all at sea.

How many times do you want to write the same thing?

Wouldn't be too many on here "sucked in" by you that's for sure...

If you can find one single instance on this forum over the past 3 or 4 years that I've been posting on here where I've written what I wrote above - show it.

Otherwise apologise for your stupidity.

As for '2 naturally brilliant footballers' on our list, you must be kidding. Absolutely must be joking.

[krabb]

So, the question is - where is the toughness?

Ask the same question after 2009 and we should have the answer.

Is mental toughness something you learn or something you naturally have?

Lyon needs 3 years...it was always as simple as that.

[saintsRrising]

We heard alot of garbage late last year form our club .

You ask where is our toughness...

Have a look at the players we recruited....

How many hard nuts have we reruited?????

Hamill, Powell and Baker.....thats it.

Some of the new crop like Armo maybe..but it is too early to tell.
Hard bodies....have a look at the overall list and you see frail (by AFL standards) bodies..

Given the draft picks he had GT's drafting was dismal.

You want toughness....footskills etc....have a good hard look at the guy who had overall responsibility for list management. You bemoan a lack of toughness then take GT to task for his failure.


Have look at the guy who assembled a list frail of mind and body.


Have a look at the other AFL clubs...and the overall standard is greater and ask yourself how they did it...



With respect to RL..he has just inherited a list......and his effect on what list he has should not be judged when he has not even had one full draft period to get the list he wants.

[kalsaint]

I wonder about that.

I always used to get a little peeved when GT recited the lines after games such as; "not following KPI's", seemed to be "a lack of effort", too much for too few, yes there were too many passengers". The reason is that when things go wrong, what did he do about it on game day?

The truth is, he was right, we need to do all those things but when they dont eventuate on game day you are relying on the discipline of the team, the very format of the team, the ability of the team to rethink (on the run) what needs to be done to get back on track. All of this is not always clear.

The coach must ring the changes to create the sprk to return some form.
To make the mental game strong with commitment it will indeed, take 3 years to complete.

Have we the time or quality of player to meet the need? Are the players willing to make the necessary change? Are teh ytrue believers to the change? I wonder!
The post seaon selections may be an indicator of this.

[JeffDunne]

I really do find it amazing how every problem with the team is attributed to our former coach.

Under GT we were one of the best tackling teams in the cop. At least top 5 and we usually had one or twp players in the top 5 for tackles in the league. We got respect as a team because of how we attacked the player with the ball. Admittedly that fell away last year, but when you consider our two most prolific tacklers in Lenny & Ball were missing or playing with injury, it wasn't without reason.

This year we are one of the worse and IMO a large part of that is the gameplan. We don't pressure the ball carrier in the back half and clearly players have been instructed to focus on a spot to run to rather than attack the man with the ball. I presume people think GT's responsible for this phenomenon too?

[Nathine29]

We must focus on what we can or can't do.

what we as supporters cant do is give up on a coach who hasn't even been in the job for 12months.

for better or worse we have made this decision to let Ross Lyon execute his ideas and hopefully win us a flag in the process.

Im reserving judgement on RL until he has had the time/opportunity to get together a list he thinks can win us a flag.

We already have the list to win a premiership. We just don't have the game plan. Guess that is expected though when a 1 dimensional coach tries to get us playing like the Swans, who incidentally have won as many premierships as us in the last 50 years.

[rodgerfox]

Under GT we were one of the best tackling teams in the cop. At least top 5 and we usually had one or twp players in the top 5 for tackles in the league. We got respect as a team because of how we attacked the player with the ball. Admittedly that fell away last year, but when you consider our two most prolific tacklers in Lenny & Ball were missing or playing with injury, it wasn't without reason.

That is a very, very good point.

We were first in tackles in 2004, and 5th last year (not sure about 05).

This year we are 12th.

In my view, this coincides with the amount of goals we're now conceding.

We've also gone from being in the top 4 best defensive sides in terms of points againts to up with the very worst.

[Oh When the Saints]

Yep rodgerfox, no doubt there are issues.

I'm sure Lyon is working hard to correct that, and I hope the results start showing soon.

Our midfield and defensive pressure has been poor since the Hawthorn game.

[kaos theory]

I really do find it amazing how every problem with the team is attributed to our former coach.

Under GT we were one of the best tackling teams in the cop. At least top 5 and we usually had one or twp players in the top 5 for tackles in the league. We got respect as a team because of how we attacked the player with the ball. Admittedly that fell away last year, but when you consider our two most prolific tacklers in Lenny & Ball were missing or playing with injury, it wasn't without reason.

This year we are one of the worse and IMO a large part of that is the gameplan. We don't pressure the ball carrier in the back half and clearly players have been instructed to focus on a spot to run to rather than attack the man with the ball. I presume people think GT's responsible for this phenomenon too?

Oh come on...you and Roger can be just as easily accused of the same delusional thinking you claim of others....

How do you know we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge? The point is you & your mate don't know. But you (and particularly Roger) carry on like you have inside knowledge, and us 'fools' don't know anything. All I see is BS from some internet jockey.

We had the worst pre-season for more than 5 yrs, and the worst injury list in the first half since 2002. That is FACT. Many opposition teams have passed us in talent and ability now, and that didn't all happen magically this year. It happened over the last 2 years when other teams put the foundations in place to improve, while we stagnated.

GT did some great things for the club, but he was no god as you all deciples believe. Whatever RL's strengths & weaknesess turn out to be, he needs at least 3 yrs to produce his goals. But more to the point, we need the whole footy department to continue its change from a one-man show (under GT) to and model that will help us compete with the power and resources of the other major clubs.

[duckduckduckgoose]

We must focus on what we can or can't do.

what we as supporters cant do is give up on a coach who hasn't even been in the job for 12months.

for better or worse we have made this decision to let Ross Lyon execute his ideas and hopefully win us a flag in the process.

Im reserving judgement on RL until he has had the time/opportunity to get together a list he thinks can win us a flag.

We already have the list to win a premiership. We just don't have the game plan. Guess that is expected though when a 1 dimensional coach tries to get us playing like the Swans, who incidentally have won as many premierships as us in the last 50 years.

your comment is here....................................................................................the point is way over here.

Im not defending Lyon or the way we have been playing- the fact is like it or not, its the path we have decided to take for the next few years.

So get used to it.

[maverick]

The naturally brilliant footballers on our list, all two of them, will be 1 & 2 in the B&F this year and maybe both AA. Hardly all at sea.

How many times do you want to write the same thing?

Wouldn't be too many on here "sucked in" by you that's for sure...

If you can find one single instance on this forum over the past 3 or 4 years that I've been posting on here where I've written what I wrote above - show it.

Otherwise apologise for your stupidity.

As for '2 naturally brilliant footballers' on our list, you must be kidding. Absolutely must be joking.

One week its toughness, last week it was three things that concern me and the week before it was something else.

The basis of your posts are questioning the same things every week just using different words.

Not joking at all, Roo and Dal are the only two "naturally gifted" footballers we have, that aren't injured, i suppose I will clarify.

I suppose you can say BJ and Bally are as well, buth both are injured.

The rest (Harvs excepted) are good footballers of varying ability and work rates but hardly naturally brilliant.

That is most of our problem, we don't have a list of smart footballers, most are mentally fragile, too easily undisciplined and not tough enough mentally and physically.

Harsh maybe.

Right now, who are our toughest players out there?
A big worry, and has been since Hamill's demise.

[JeffDunne]

I really do find it amazing how every problem with the team is attributed to our former coach.

Under GT we were one of the best tackling teams in the cop. At least top 5 and we usually had one or twp players in the top 5 for tackles in the league. We got respect as a team because of how we attacked the player with the ball. Admittedly that fell away last year, but when you consider our two most prolific tacklers in Lenny & Ball were missing or playing with injury, it wasn't without reason.

This year we are one of the worse and IMO a large part of that is the gameplan. We don't pressure the ball carrier in the back half and clearly players have been instructed to focus on a spot to run to rather than attack the man with the ball. I presume people think GT's responsible for this phenomenon too?

Oh come on...you and Roger can be just as easily accused of the same delusional thinking you claim of others....

How do you know we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge? The point is you & your mate don't know. But you (and particularly Roger) carry on like you have inside knowledge, and us 'fools' don't know anything. All I see is BS from some internet jockey.

We had the worst pre-season for more than 5 yrs, and the worst injury list in the first half since 2002. That is FACT. Many opposition teams have passed us in talent and ability now, and that didn't all happen magically this year. It happened over the last 2 years when other teams put the foundations in place to improve, while we stagnated.

GT did some great things for the club, but he was no god as you all deciples believe. Whatever RL's strengths & weaknesess turn out to be, he needs at least 3 yrs to produce his goals. But more to the point, we need the whole footy department to continue its change from a one-man show (under GT) to and model that will help us compete with the power and resources of the other major clubs.

And this nonsense has exactly what to do with my post? Utter tripe playing the man as usual because you can't argue the point.

I was responding to the notion that our lack our 'toughness' was due to GT's coaching (saintsRrising's post). Do you dispute that our tackling this season is the worst we've displayed for years?

And please, stop with this your mate bullshiit. I disagree with Rodger more than I agree, but simpletons like yourself would like to bring everything back to a pro-GT/anti-Lyon debate. I am neither.

[kaos theory]

Utter tripe playing the man as usual because you can't argue the point.

Ok, Then can you answer this?

Do you know that we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge?

Also, I re-state: We had the worst pre-season for more than 5 yrs, and the worst injury list in the first half since 2002. That is FACT. Many opposition teams have passed us in talent and ability now, and that didn't all happen magically this year. It happened over the last 2 years when other teams put the foundations in place to improve, while we stagnated.

GT did some great things for the club, but he was no god.

Whatever RL's strengths & weaknesess turn out to be, he needs at least 3 yrs to produce his goals. But more to the point, we need the whole footy department to continue its change from a one-man show (under GT) to and model that will help us compete with the power and resources of the other major clubs.

Do you agree/disagree?

[maverick]

I really do find it amazing how every problem with the team is attributed to our former coach.

Under GT we were one of the best tackling teams in the cop. At least top 5 and we usually had one or twp players in the top 5 for tackles in the league. We got respect as a team because of how we attacked the player with the ball. Admittedly that fell away last year, but when you consider our two most prolific tacklers in Lenny & Ball were missing or playing with injury, it wasn't without reason.

This year we are one of the worse and IMO a large part of that is the gameplan. We don't pressure the ball carrier in the back half and clearly players have been instructed to focus on a spot to run to rather than attack the man with the ball. I presume people think GT's responsible for this phenomenon too?

Agree our tackling feels down, whether it is or not, would love to see the numbers. Reckon last year may be similar.

Our three best tacklers in recent years have been Ball, Hayes and Hamill, Hayes and Ball are our best this year but not in the top 10.

I honestly think our tackling pressure is down predominantly due to fatigue. The miles in the legs aren't there. Getting to the contests is such a struggle and once we are there we just don't have the intensity.

Is the game plan wearing us down, or is the running in the comp lifted significantly in the last two years?

Look who are up the top, North, Geelong, Hawthorn, all teams that had massive running pre seasons last year, which is paying dividends. North particularly are fantastic tacklers.

Interesting.

[rodgerfox]

Utter tripe playing the man as usual because you can't argue the point.

Ok, Then can you answer this?

Do you know that we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge?

Mods, can we please move this to the Grant Thomas Forum?

My god I get bored of hearing his name in every thread.

[kaos theory]

Mods, can we please move this to the Grant Thomas Forum?

My god I get bored of hearing his name in every thread.

Easy for you to avoid the issues you try to raise when the questions do suit you isn't Roger?

yet you state this:

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field

What were we 'stooged' about then????

[rodgerfox]

Mods, can we please move this to the Grant Thomas Forum?

My god I get bored of hearing his name in every thread.

Easy for you to avoid the issues you try to raise when the questions do suit you isn't Roger?

The problem is, and I hope some day people realise it - is that I'm not raising any issue at all.

Read my post again, it's quite simple.

yet you state this:

I just can't help but think we have been stooged by a Board more concerned with their bottom line than what is happening on the field

What were we 'stooged' about then????

Lots of things.

[Teflon]

YAWN - usual suspects agreeing with each other...

Can we not move on ??????

Geezus you must be a sad sack....

[fonz_#15]

YAWN - usual suspects agreeing with each other...

Can we not move on ??????

Geezus you must be a sad sack....

don't worry teflon, we weill lose the 2038 grand final and it will be tracked back to the firing of GT

[JeffDunne]

Ok, Then can you answer this?

Do you know that we wouldn't be in the same, if not worse position if GT was still in charge?

No I don't KNOW. What a silly question to ask.

Do we know if we'd be in this position if we gave Longmire the job?

We could do this all day.

Also, I re-state: We had the worst pre-season for more than 5 yrs, and the worst injury list in the first half since 2002. That is FACT. Many opposition teams have passed us in talent and ability now, and that didn't all happen magically this year. It happened over the last 2 years when other teams put the foundations in place to improve, while we stagnated.

The talent issue is subjective. According to most, St Kilda was the a plum coaching position because of the list we had. I guess we'd need to ask prospective coaches to get a definative answer on their views.

Which teams have passed us as far as talent? I remember being told last year the Bulldogs were the model we should be following, that they'd past us. Revolutionising I think was the word used a lot.

As for the worst pre-season for 5 years - whose fault was that? GT?

GT did some great things for the club, but he was no god.

You didn't need to add the 'but'.

Whatever RL's strengths & weaknesess turn out to be, he needs at least 3 yrs to produce his goals.

Probably. But if we miss the 8 this year, and next, he won't get three.

But more to the point, we need the whole footy department to continue its change from a one-man show (under GT) to and model that will help us compete with the power and resources of the other major clubs.

Do you agree/disagree?

Niether, but I agree with Rodger you've been stooged if you think this was the reason.

We sacked the coach and all assistants and replace them with rookies (bar one). We made no changes - and in fact let the situation become farcical - to our fitnees and conditioning staff until the preseason was over. In fact I couldn't think if a more amateurish approach to a preseason .

We STILL have one of the worst off-field setups in the league. Worse than some clubs on CBF handouts from the league (including Syndey).

Replacing the coach was fair enough if we were upgrading, but we only spoke to one senior coach, and that was on the Monday prior to Lyon being annouced for the job.

Now if you'd like to show me where we've upgraded, or improved our results because of increased resources I'm all ears.


But I guess we blame GT for having the "worst preseason in 5 years"?

[carn_sainter]

You ask where is our toughness...

Have a look at the players we recruited....

How many hard nuts have we reruited?????

Hamill, Powell and Baker.....thats it.

Some of the new crop like Armo maybe..but it is too early to tell.
Hard bodies....have a look at the overall list and you see frail (by AFL standards) bodies..

Given the draft picks he had GT's drafting was dismal.

You want toughness....footskills etc....have a good hard look at the guy who had overall responsibility for list management. You bemoan a lack of toughness then take GT to task for his failure.


Have look at the guy who assembled a list frail of mind and body.


Have a look at the other AFL clubs...and the overall standard is greater and ask yourself how they did it...



With respect to RL..he has just inherited a list......and his effect on what list he has should not be judged when he has not even had one full draft period to get the list he wants.

hard bodies...such a cliche
in order to develop this 'hard body' players need a lot of work and a lot of time...4 full pre-seasons at least...

we all now a lot of our players have had interrupted approaches


also, you don't draft toughness...how silly...it's not a biological parameter like height or speed...it's attitudinal and all players can have it and all players can lose it

at some points players have shown it and at others they haven't...steve armstrong was a milne type with the dees and now is a great pressuring tackling chasing head over it player at the eagles...

schneider started off terrified off contact and now thrives on it

the examples of players gaining/losing this toughness are almost infinite


who do you recommend we draft instead of the players we have for pure toughness? this great hardness?


its not about how hard nuts, people who like biffo as they say...

hayes/ball/goose/max/leigh fisher/thommo/fraser all very tough...even a guy like joey, even fiora...we have players capable of head over it toughness...in fact every player we have is capable of it

look me in the eye and say rooey ain't tough...


it's attitudinal...we've shown it a few times this year and other times we've played as if diametrically opposed to it...

attitudinal

not an inherent list characteristic

[saintsRrising]

also, you don't draft toughness...how silly...it's not a biological parameter like height or speed...it's attitudinal and all players can have it and all players can lose it
.
.
.
.


attitudinal

not an inherent list characteristic

Quite frankly that is pure rubbish...

While you can get ALL players to play harder, tackle more etc....some players are just naturally pre-disposed to being mean bas****.

Baker was not taught to be mean & fierce....nor was Sammy...

Nor Lockett

Nor Mad dog

Nor The Cowboy

Nor Big Carl

and no matter how much you coach you will NEVER turn players such as Harvey, Dal or Fiora into mean bast****. This does not lessen their value or role as you do not need or want 22 mean bast**** but you need more than we currently have.



Matthews at the Lions did not turn marshmallows into the Scott brothers. They are naturally pit bulls.


Cannot draft mean bast***s?????

Well Matthews got Pike...the Swans took Hall....and Plugga...


Williams at the draft camps is famous or infamous foe putting the kids on the block to get the mental qualities he wants.