Our midfield/wing options 2020 v 2024

[cwrcyn]

2020

Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark (played half back)
Hannebery (did not play)
Billings
Dunstan
Bytel (2nd year player)
Byrnes (first year player)



2024


Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark
Dow
Owens
Windhager
Henry
Byrnes
Hotton (2nd year player)
Phillipou (2nd year player)
Wilson (1st year player)

We've certainly added more numbers and greater speed. Hard to believe we made finals in 2020 with so few options in the midfield

[loris]

You’ve forgotten Crouch

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

You’ve forgotten Crouch

And Maso Wood

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

We certainly could have one of the best outside running brigades in the comp, with Wood, Hill, Henry, Byrnes and Wilson all genuine options for the wing, or high half-forward. Then with the likes of Sincs, Wangmil, Windy, Clark and Bonner options off half back. That’s some serious running power.

If we can get Steele back to his beastly best on the inside and a few step up to help him in there we could be very hard to beat most weeks.

With Steele well short of his best for most of last season, or missing altogether, we would have had one of the 3 or 4 weakest midfields in the comp, so there’s loads of scope for improvement there, as there obviously is with the forward line.

Which augurs well for us when you consider the fact we were top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season year.

Yet almost all the “experts” are tipping us to be considerably worse. It doesn’t make a heap of sense.

[saynta]

We certainly could have one of the best outside running brigades in the comp, with Wood, Hill, Henry, Byrnes and Wilson all genuine options for the wing, or high half-forward. Then with the likes of Sincs, Wangmil, Windy, Clark and Bonner options off half back. That’s some serious running power.

If we can get Steele back to his beastly best on the inside and a few step up to help him in there we could be very hard to beat most weeks.

With Steele well short of his best for most of last season, or missing altogether, we would have had one of the 3 or 4 weakest midfields in the comp, so there’s loads of scope for improvement there, as there obviously is with the forward line.

Which augurs well for us when you consider the fact we were top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season year.

Yet almost all the “experts” are tipping us to be considerably worse. It doesn’t make a heap of sense.

No love and no respect from those clowns who are still pissed off that we showed up their lack of football smarts last year.

Who cares? Not I.

[Vortex]

2020

Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark (played half back)
Hannebery (did not play)
Billings
Dunstan
Bytel (2nd year player)
Byrnes (first year player)



2024


Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark
Dow
Owens
Windhager
Henry
Byrnes
Hotton (2nd year player)
Phillipou (2nd year player)
Wilson (1st year player)

We've certainly added more numbers and greater speed. Hard to believe we made finals in 2020 with so few options in the midfield

The Covid Cup was way to compromised to use it as a true measure, clearly we adapted to the hub life better than most which afforded us a fake finals appearance.

[Vortex]

We certainly could have one of the best outside running brigades in the comp, with Wood, Hill, Henry, Byrnes and Wilson all genuine options for the wing, or high half-forward. Then with the likes of Sincs, Wangmil, Windy, Clark and Bonner options off half back. That’s some serious running power.

If we can get Steele back to his beastly best on the inside and a few step up to help him in there we could be very hard to beat most weeks.

With Steele well short of his best for most of last season, or missing altogether, we would have had one of the 3 or 4 weakest midfields in the comp, so there’s loads of scope for improvement there, as there obviously is with the forward line.

Which augurs well for us when you consider the fact we were top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season year.

Yet almost all the “experts” are tipping us to be considerably worse. It doesn’t make a heap of sense.

I think the prevailing consensus is we were afforded a very easy draw that helped us pick up cheap wins early and then looked very average through the middle of the season even struggling against Hawks, North and West Coast. And then we were lucky towards the back end of the season with many results from other teams around us on the ladder falling our way. And even though we started to play better in the final month or so of the H&A to scrape into the finals, we were shown to be only making up the numbers against GWS.

Id say that is what is leading most footy pundits who aren't one eyed Sainters to predict a slide.

[Life Long Saint]

I think the prevailing consensus is we were afforded a very easy draw that helped us pick up cheap wins early and then looked very average through the middle of the season even struggling against Hawks, North and West Coast. And then we were lucky towards the back end of the season with many results from other teams around us on the ladder falling our way. And even though we started to play better in the final month or so of the H&A to scrape into the finals, we were shown to be only making up the numbers against GWS.

Id say that is what is leading most footy pundits who aren't one eyed Sainters to predict a slide.

The first three early "cheap wins" were against Fremantle (2022 finalists), Bulldogs (2022 finalists and tipped to go higher in 23), and Essendon (also tipped to be a serious finals contender).
Essendon were flying when we played them, so the "cheap" wins were not so cheap. They won their next two games after they lost to us including a win over Melbourne.

What we really lacked last year (and for many years) is a killer instict to bury teams when we should. We blew a 20 point lead with a five goal turn around against the Hawks. We fell over the line against West Coast and North (8 points each game).
Good teams make sure those games are easy wins and percentage boosters.

[saynta]

2020

Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark (played half back)
Hannebery (did not play)
Billings
Dunstan
Bytel (2nd year player)
Byrnes (first year player)



2024


Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark
Dow
Owens
Windhager
Henry
Byrnes
Hotton (2nd year player)
Phillipou (2nd year player)
Wilson (1st year player)

We've certainly added more numbers and greater speed. Hard to believe we made finals in 2020 with so few options in the midfield

The Covid Cup was way to compromised to use it as a true measure, clearly we adapted to the hub life better than most which afforded us a fake finals appearance.

A finals appearance is exactly that, a finals appearance. Nothing fake about it all all. A very stupid comment.

[saynta]

We certainly could have one of the best outside running brigades in the comp, with Wood, Hill, Henry, Byrnes and Wilson all genuine options for the wing, or high half-forward. Then with the likes of Sincs, Wangmil, Windy, Clark and Bonner options off half back. That’s some serious running power.

If we can get Steele back to his beastly best on the inside and a few step up to help him in there we could be very hard to beat most weeks.

With Steele well short of his best for most of last season, or missing altogether, we would have had one of the 3 or 4 weakest midfields in the comp, so there’s loads of scope for improvement there, as there obviously is with the forward line.

Which augurs well for us when you consider the fact we were top 6 for all bar one week of the H&A season year.

Yet almost all the “experts” are tipping us to be considerably worse. It doesn’t make a heap of sense.

I think the prevailing consensus is we were afforded a very easy draw that helped us pick up cheap wins early and then looked very average through the middle of the season even struggling against Hawks, North and West Coast. And then we were lucky towards the back end of the season with many results from other teams around us on the ladder falling our way. And even though we started to play better in the final month or so of the H&A to scrape into the finals, we were shown to be only making up the numbers against GWS.

Id say that is what is leading most footy pundits who aren't one eyed Sainters to predict a slide.

Or anti saints posters like you.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

2020

Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark (played half back)
Hannebery (did not play)
Billings
Dunstan
Bytel (2nd year player)
Byrnes (first year player)



2024


Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark
Dow
Owens
Windhager
Henry
Byrnes
Hotton (2nd year player)
Phillipou (2nd year player)
Wilson (1st year player)

We've certainly added more numbers and greater speed. Hard to believe we made finals in 2020 with so few options in the midfield

The Covid Cup was way to compromised to use it as a true measure, clearly we adapted to the hub life better than most which afforded us a fake finals appearance.

That’s certainly an interesting theory, but here’s a fun fact. Before we went up to the hub, in R6, do you know where we were on the ladder?

4th.

So we were actually higher on the ladder in non-hub football than we subsequently were in hub football.

And in hub football we beat the top team Port, in Adelaide, 73 to 44, and they obviously adapted to “hub life” very well, hence being on top of the ladder. Yet we comprehensively beat them. While we lost to 2nd on the ladder Brisbane by just 2 points, at the Gabba.

We were a good team that year, in and out of the hub.

[Vortex]

2020

Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark (played half back)
Hannebery (did not play)
Billings
Dunstan
Bytel (2nd year player)
Byrnes (first year player)



2024


Steele
Ross
Hill
Jones
Clark
Dow
Owens
Windhager
Henry
Byrnes
Hotton (2nd year player)
Phillipou (2nd year player)
Wilson (1st year player)

We've certainly added more numbers and greater speed. Hard to believe we made finals in 2020 with so few options in the midfield

The Covid Cup was way to compromised to use it as a true measure, clearly we adapted to the hub life better than most which afforded us a fake finals appearance.

That’s certainly an interesting theory, but here’s a fun fact. Before we went up to the hub, in R6, do you know where we were on the ladder?

4th.

So we were actually higher on the ladder in non-hub football than we subsequently were in hub football.

And in hub football we beat the top team Port, in Adelaide, 73 to 44, and they obviously adapted to “hub life” very well, hence being on top of the ladder. Yet we comprehensively beat them. While we lost to 2nd on the ladder Brisbane by just 2 points, at the Gabba.

We were a good team that year, in and out of the hub.

It was a terribly compromised competition and if we were a very good side then there was a significant correction the following year when the competition returned to full strength.

[cwrcyn]

It's been a long time since we had this many midfield options. The good thing is the ones we've added are not the treacle slow types like Dunstan and Bytel. It's up to Brendan Goddard to now make them a cohesive, dynamic and organised unit

[Impatient Sainter]

If we can win first use of the footy this year, we will slice teams up on the outside similarly to Collingwood last year.

Contested marking is something we need to improve in as a group.

[Vortex]

It's been a long time since we had this many midfield options. The good thing is the ones we've added are not the treacle slow types like Dunstan and Bytel. It's up to Brendan Goddard to now make them a cohesive, dynamic and organised unit

Whilst the list of midfielders is now growing in the right direction it’s probably important to temper expectations with regards to available midfielders who can compete with the elite midfields around the top 4 of the ladder throughout 2024.

Our midfield department is still very much a work in progress and will need another season or two to develop and/or determine if some of our recent additions have A grade or elite capabilities.

What will be helpful is if we can get some service out of the likes of Jones in his final years while we are in this development stage.

[nostalgicsaint]

It's been a long time since we had this many midfield options. The good thing is the ones we've added are not the treacle slow types like Dunstan and Bytel. It's up to Brendan Goddard to now make them a cohesive, dynamic and organised unit

Whilst the list of midfielders is now growing in the right direction it’s probably important to temper expectations with regards to available midfielders who can compete with the elite midfields around the top 4 of the ladder throughout 2024.

Our midfield department is still very much a work in progress and will need another season or two to develop and/or determine if some of our recent additions have A grade or elite capabilities.

What will be helpful is if we can get some service out of the likes of Jones in his final years while we are in this development stage.

Agree with this. If we break them into 3 categories.

Able to compete currently
Steele
Crouch
Ross
Wood
Hill
Byrnes (can he step up to his best footy consistently)
Henry
Dow (can he prove Carlton wrong)
Jones (injury prone)

Potential to compete this year
Pou
Owens
Windhager

Developing
Wilson
Hotton


It highlights how important Pou, Owens and Windy are to us this year and the lack of genuine star power in the top group.

[cwrcyn]

We really need the youngsters to shine. Ross probably has two seasons left, Crouch three.

The key is mids who can really run. The difference that Walsh makes for Carlton is enormous. Same with Neale at Brisbane, and Oliver at Melbourne. Having that kind of tank combine with speed is a real advantage.

It's critical that Hotton, Henry, and Wilson prove to be the goods. Owens can be our Paddy Cripps and windhager the lock down mid. This other guys can add the relentless running

[Vortex]

It's been a long time since we had this many midfield options. The good thing is the ones we've added are not the treacle slow types like Dunstan and Bytel. It's up to Brendan Goddard to now make them a cohesive, dynamic and organised unit

Whilst the list of midfielders is now growing in the right direction it’s probably important to temper expectations with regards to available midfielders who can compete with the elite midfields around the top 4 of the ladder throughout 2024.

Our midfield department is still very much a work in progress and will need another season or two to develop and/or determine if some of our recent additions have A grade or elite capabilities.

What will be helpful is if we can get some service out of the likes of Jones in his final years while we are in this development stage.

Agree with this. If we break them into 3 categories.

Able to compete currently
Steele
Crouch
Ross
Wood
Hill
Byrnes (can he step up to his best footy consistently)
Henry
Dow (can he prove Carlton wrong)
Jones (injury prone)

Potential to compete this year
Pou
Owens
Windhager

Developing
Wilson
Hotton


It highlights how important Pou, Owens and Windy are to us this year and the lack of genuine star power in the top group.

I think Byrnes has peaked and will/must get pushed out if we are to become a top 4 contender.

Pou will need 2 or more years before he can endure a full season and some finals and be capable of competing with the elite midfielders in the final 2 weeks of September.

We will have a better idea at season end if Dow is A, B or C grade.

Henry is the one I'm looking forward to see in the RW&B.

And here's hoping Steele's shoulder holds up, outside of that I'm with Ross, I want to see him light it up in the midfield more, Steele needs to look to be first to win the ball and get us going forward more rather than be second to the ball to be the stopper and rack up the tackle stats.

[Killa]

And you could be excused for offering that if we had not lost Carlisle, Ryder and Long we may have gone a bit further

Carlisle was particularly missed v Richmond where both he and Long received Brownlow votes when we beat them thru the season (so Carlisle took out Lynch who was a problem for us in the finals)

And Ryder was just class

[Vortex]

And you could be excused for offering that if we had not lost Carlisle, Ryder and Long we may have gone a bit further

Carlisle was particularly missed v Richmond where both he and Long received Brownlow votes when we beat them thru the season (so Carlisle took out Lynch who was a problem for us in the finals)

And Ryder was just class

Absolutely those three names not being in the side would have helped but realistically had we come up against Richmond in a full strength competition the year before then I think most footy pundits would agree we were way off the pace. It's pointless really to make any comparisons with results from the Covid Cup as the season was severely compromised and is not comparing apples with apples.

[Killa]

But you could put that it was a more even contest, basically absent home grounds and the reduced number of Minor Round games.

Simply, each side had a full List of available players with whom to compete.

[Vortex]

But you could put that it was a more even contest, basically absent home grounds and the reduced number of Minor Round games.

Simply, each side had a full List of available players with whom to compete.

Possibly, but for every argument that attempts to present the Covid Cup as a comp that was equal to a full strength comp and not a circuis only concocted to keep the gates open for booze and gambling revenue, there are 10 counter arguments.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

We really need the youngsters to shine. Ross probably has two seasons left, Crouch three.

The key is mids who can really run. The difference that Walsh makes for Carlton is enormous. Same with Neale at Brisbane, and Oliver at Melbourne. Having that kind of tank combine with speed is a real advantage.

It's critical that Hotton, Henry, and Wilson prove to be the goods. Owens can be our Paddy Cripps and windhager the lock down mid. This other guys can add the relentless running

I agree that Seb and Crouch probably have 2-3 years each where they could keep playing at the level, but if we’re going to go places, we really need the likes of Owens, Clark, Dow, Windhager and Phillipou to push those two out of the side ASAP.

If we have a good run with injuries I reckon Seb could start to be pushed back to sub duties or further as soon as this year.

On the inside we’ll all-things-equal have Steele and Crouch, and probably/hopefully Dow and Clark, and ideally Jones, with the likes of Owens, Windy and Pou rotating through there more, which makes it really hard to see where Seb fits, as he’s not great on a wing, and out there he’d be competing with the likes of Wood, Henry, Hill, Byrnes and Wilson.

So I could see him being squeezed out as soon as this year and if Owens starts to own the midfield Fyfe-style, and Clark happens to start producing the goods consistently in there, Crouch could be squeezed out the season after.

Those two are good soldiers to have in your team when you just want to be competitive, but if you really want to contend, you ideally need guys who are just that next level up. Especially if you can really only play one position, like Crouch.

[Killa]

But with the draw including who and when you play the competition is “concocted to keep the gates open”

The draw and the venues were compromised pre vaccine and then pre the vaccination levels as put by the medical experts and adopted by National Cabinet being achieved (was the figure 80%?)

But each Club had their List of players available so the quality of the competition was not compromised

The assessment of the List as put by Rattan when called upon to interview for his then job and agreed by the Board remains

The challenge for the Football Department to continue to address that assessment similarly remains

I am one who is of the view that firstly you need to bridge the gap to the premiership side then improve by another 20% because all other teams will improve

And the only time you can pass opinion on progress is once the season starts and we see the structure of the side and results

It is a results driven competition

Which is not unique across life

[SaintPav]

But with the draw including who and when you play the competition is “concocted to keep the gates open”

The draw and the venues were compromised pre vaccine and then pre the vaccination levels as put by the medical experts and adopted by National Cabinet being achieved (was the figure 80%?)

But each Club had their List of players available so the quality of the competition was not compromised

The assessment of the List as put by Rattan when called upon to interview for his then job and agreed by the Board remains

The challenge for the Football Department to continue to address that assessment similarly remains

I am one who is of the view that firstly you need to bridge the gap to the premiership side then improve by another 20% because all other teams will improve

And the only time you can pass opinion on progress is once the season starts and we see the structure of the side and results

It is a results driven competition

Which is not unique across life

Yep. The target changed to 95% shortly later. It changed again the following year to 100% and now the moving target stands at around 500% after you're supposed to have your fourth booster.