Liam Stocker: Where’s he at?

[shanegrambeau]

I’ll admit I don’t have a clue.

Where do you see him?

A future fringe player , a stop-gap replacement ?

Or a genuine starting 18 , part of the furniture?

We have picked up a few promising discards over the years that start promisingly.

So what are his strengths and weaknesses?

[skeptic]

Stocker to me had the hardest trajectory of any player to track.

He started the season like recruit of the year…
Got a lot of ball, solid in defence, fantastic in the contest and rock solid disposal combined with composed decision making.

He became an early favourite of mine in the SGM for 15 touches… was easily getting close to 18-20 (sometimes +) for a streak of the first 12 games or something going at around $1.45.

Then… whilst I was tracking him, I started to notice something odd. He was getting benched for rather extensive periods. Most players are on the line for around 4-8min injury or say close to end of quarter not withstanding.
Stocker was often benched for 15-20min… sometimes out for a 1.5 quarters.

Footage of RTB would see an occasional outburst on Stocker either on the phone or in response to something he did that wasn’t obvious to me where he’d just lose his &#!+ and I just found it perplexing.

Without a clear blunder… I figured it was a positioning blunder or a lack of fitness to get to the right spot. Then there was that infamous game (I forget which exactly), when Hayes stayed home sick and reportedly called the coaches box mid game and told RTB to put Stocker back on the ground…
What is going on here I thought.

From memory he got dropped on the second half of the year or at least found himself subbed in and out more with what looked like less game time. His confidence waned and it was all capped off in the elimination final when again I believe he started as sub.

Came on in the second half and was one of the best on a disappointing day.

What a strange way for the year to play out for him but the strangest was yet to come…
A one year extension? I’d have thought he was easily a lock for 2… maybe even three. What the heck that he didn’t

As such… Stocker enters 2024 with a bit of pressure of him… back up, get better or ship out.

There’s something about him that RTB clearly doesn’t like but damned if I know what it is.

[B.M]

He’s a bit like Ben Paton

A solid role player in the AFL

Gun in the VFL

He can play decent footy at AFL level - but no star

[shanegrambeau]

Stocker to me had the hardest trajectory of any player to track.

He started the season like recruit of the year…
Got a lot of ball, solid in defence, fantastic in the contest and rock solid disposal combined with composed decision making.

He became an early favourite of mine in the SGM for 15 touches… was easily getting close to 18-20 (sometimes +) for a streak of the first 12 games or something going at around $1.45.

Then… whilst I was tracking him, I started to notice something odd. He was getting benched for rather extensive periods. Most players are on the line for around 4-8min injury or say close to end of quarter not withstanding.
Stocker was often benched for 15-20min… sometimes out for a 1.5 quarters.

Footage of RTB would see an occasional outburst on Stocker either on the phone or in response to something he did that wasn’t obvious to me where he’d just lose his &#!+ and I just found it perplexing.

Without a clear blunder… I figured it was a positioning blunder or a lack of fitness to get to the right spot. Then there was that infamous game (I forget which exactly), when Hayes stayed home sick and reportedly called the coaches box mid game and told RTB to put Stocker back on the ground…
What is going on here I thought.

From memory he got dropped on the second half of the year or at least found himself subbed in and out more with what looked like less game time. His confidence waned and it was all capped off in the elimination final when again I believe he started as sub.

Came on in the second half and was one of the best on a disappointing day.

What a strange way for the year to play out for him but the strangest was yet to come…
A one year extension? I’d have thought he was easily a lock for 2… maybe even three. What the heck that he didn’t

As such… Stocker enters 2024 with a bit of pressure of him… back up, get better or ship out.

There’s something about him that RTB clearly doesn’t like but damned if I know what it is.

Well said!

That about sums up my question.

So I ask, what can he do well, better than say a Paton, a Byrnes, a Butler, a (fill-in-the-blank) and what can't he do? My answer is that he must be a pretty good allrounder. Skill, athleticism and footy nouse, but nothing in particular?? Is he a Shane Savage? Nope..I guess he can't do a 70metre bomb, Is he a Jack Sinclair ? No, I guess he can't weave and thread it like Sincs. Is he a Coffield, no, I guess he doesn't have the overhead chops. He had a pretty good 2021 at Carlton, then he had a crap 2022 based on stats. (disclaimer I have abolutely NO idea what he did right or wrong there)

And then, the pot-belly stove isn't giving him much heat and love - So why?

Edit : I don't know if I agree he was a contender for the SGM (Shane Grambeau Medal) but fair play.

[cwrcyn]

He's tough and a beautiful kick. His decision making seems to be okay once he has ball in hand.. Maybe it's his positioning that Ross Lyon identifies as a problem, and that's a hard thing to gauge as a supporter because we're always ball watching.

He's a better option than Paton, who clearly has decision making issues that make him a liability in a team that is intent on quick ball movement.


It's a matter of choosing who fits into that back six. Are Stocker and Webster competing for the same position? I'd say that Lyon prefers Webster over Stocker as a default position.

The question is can Stocker get any better than he is now. He hasn't played a heap of senior football, so I'd say there's still scope for some improvement.

[Banger9798]

Uses the ball well. I'm usually very comfortable when he has the ball in hand.
Decent mark, courageous, tough. He flies the flag for his team-mates also.

His spot is under pressure now from Paton, Webster, Windhager and eventually from Hasty as that last defender

[whiskers3614]

Not good when Lyon puts you in the dunce’s corner a la Ball and Billings!

[Otiman]

I'm not sure, I am in two minds.

One is that our recent recruiting has him on the outer, but another is that he's a required small/medium defender like Webster.

Not necessarily in the best 22 players on the list, but fits the need to play a role.

[shrodes]

I see him as the Webster replacement. Hard as nails and good user. By all accounts one of the most vocal on the team (which we sorely lack) and drives standards, no doubt he would have set himself to working hard to get back into the team after end of last year.
Remember Webster will be 31 next year. Stocker will be 24.

[Impatient Sainter]

He is a handy player but I think at this time he will remain a back up player. For me he needs to drop 5-10kgs of bulk so he can improve his running to the next level. As hard as they train it is really hard for some individuals to drop weight. If he could get his aerobic fitness up he would be a good inside midfield option, but until then he will remain a small defender.

[shanegrambeau]

So maybe, he is about where Hunter Clark was two years ago?

A smallish half-back flanker with decent or good skills but needs to get the aerobic levels up so he can run more?

Probably hasn’t got Hunter’s poise but makes up for that in aggression?

I had a look at BF in a Carlton thread last night (I only read the first few and last few from a thread that runs dozens of pages)

The fans were really surprised in a good way when they got him in 2018 or whenever it was

When he left there are some mixed feelings

Some comments on lack of fitness (perhaps he was injured in ‘22 and didn’t really try hard enough to recover in fitnesss?) and some comments that he was on the nose with team mates for some reason..

I have no problem with the social/mental outcast bit (if that was indeed the scenario the poor bastard found himself in) been there - live there!

But with the fitness thingo- yep, for sure, if he hasn’t got the e yards in the legs it will be tough

He needs to channel Leigh Montagna

Young Joey enjoys the pasta but had himself whip thin for his career ..if Stocker can follow?

Anyway, much extrapolation and few facts. One thing we can say, is that he seems to have displaced Paton and Ben Long (defender version) quite adequately.

[NickyDal]

I’ll admit I don’t have a clue.

Where do you see him?

A future fringe player , a stop-gap replacement ?

Or a genuine starting 18 , part of the furniture?

We have picked up a few promising discards over the years that start promisingly.

So what are his strengths and weaknesses?

Genuine starting 18. Hard as nails, brave and takes the game on. Perfect for what we need...

[saynta]

Not good when Lyon puts you in the dunce’s corner a la Ball and Billings!

Yep.

[D.B.Cooper]

I like Stocker, honest, tough, decent skills.

Down side is he’s a very average runner, and as Bytel found out if you can’t run to an acceptable standard you will be under pressure to retain your place at StKilda.

He’s a depth player for me, I think he’s behind Webster, in front of the 2023 version of Paton, the one that could damage his options may be Bonner given his run and foot skills.

[Yorkeys]

Achilles heel. Liam's opponents can kick easy goals at inopportune times from limited opportunities. If he can improve concentration and judgement about stifling unfolding danger he'd be a star and a favourite.

[B.M]

Why do you think Bytel wasn’t a good runner

His endurance was near elite when he was fit ran a sub 10 3k

His knock was on ace from stoppage

[Saintmike65]

Stocker seems a bit one paced & not an overly quick decision maker, however, will be a decent replacement when required.

[D.B.Cooper]

Why do you think Bytel wasn’t a good runner

His endurance was near elite when he was fit ran a sub 10 3k

His knock was on ace from stoppage

Agree he is a professional and had endurance.
I very much doubt he was sub 10 in 3k, would like to see the proof, and for the record sub 10 is not elite.

I recall you posting several times that Luke Ball was a gun/ elite sprinter as a junior, which is a total myth perpetrated on this forum. Ball was an elite cricketer and footballer, but only ever an average junior athlete.

There are a handful of elite 3k runners in the AFL, amongst the best are Blicsavs at Geelong and Harry Sharp at Brisbane who were both national champions at junior level. Also very good is recent Geelong mature aged smokie recruit Ollie Whiltshire.

Other alround very good runners are Ralphsmith, Bergman, Chesser and Sinn.

Bytel is not a good runner, as he is treacle slow.

If his running capacity is not why he was delisted, what do you think is the reasoning behind the delisting?

[Waltzing St Kilda]

I like him. Better than Ben Long at half(?) the price.

But a Carlton mate told me the Blues players got sick of him whining... who knows?

[spert]

Probably walk straight into our crap midfield

[B.M]

Elite runners in the AFL are sub 10 3K and a sub 6 2K

We are not talking elite athletics here… we are talking AFL midfielders - who lug 80-90kg frames around and need to possess speed and power also - not just be aerobic beasts

His lack of speed from stoppage and sameness to better players like Steele, Ross and Crouch along with his contract being over is why he was delisted.

Do you actually believe Allison is a better footballer than Bytel

BTW Allison is an elite runner for a tall pity he can’t get a kick - definitely not an issue for Bytel.


Ball definitely a very good junior at school and little aths

Bytel dropped quite a bit of weight in his last two seasons and improved his running markedly

[SaintPav]

Paton and Webster are better defensively in stopping their opponents. Stocker is a beautiful kick though. Does he have any other weapons or can he develop his game further? I have my doubts.

Richo and Ratts would have given him a 2-3 year contract but times have changed.

[D.B.Cooper]

Elite runners in the AFL are sub 10 3K and a sub 6 2K

We are not talking elite athletics here… we are talking AFL midfielders - who lug 80-90kg frames around and need to possess speed and power also - not just be aerobic beasts

His lack of speed from stoppage and sameness to better players like Steele, Ross and Crouch along with his contract being over is why he was delisted.

Of course you are not taking elite track athletes, elite track athletes run sub 5's, national level low 5's over 2K.

Elite AFL athletes are below 5:50 over 2k on an aths track every day of the week.
Absolute elite AFL runners are in the sub 5:30 range, then there are tope enders like Harry Sharp & Marc Blicsavs who run sub 5:20's.

Still waiting to see when and where Bytel ran a sub 10 3K run, also worth noting an endurance building run over 3K does not necessarily relate to an athletes ability to perform repeat sprint efforts like is required at AFL level.
I'd be more interested in Bytel over a beep test than 3K, if in fact he ever broke 10M.

Ross, Steele & Crouch are never going to win the GF day sprint, but they all have Bytel well covered over 20, particularly Ross whose burst over 20 is underrated.

Do you actually believe Allison is a better footballer than Bytel

Really weird comment, assuming you were responding to my post, you have inserted Allison into the discussion, Why?
When have I or any other poster suggested Allison is a better footballer than Bytel?
For what it is worth Allison is on an AFL list and at this point in time Bytel is not, though I hope Collingwood select him.

Ball definitely a very good junior at school and little aths

Been involved in aths for over 30 years, Ball was not a good track athlete at little aths and was ok in the weak APS T&F comp.
I'm in my 60's and I reckon I could still place in the APS competition sprints.
You can perpetuate this myth of Ball being a gun 100mt sprinter (as you had previously written) as much as you like, but it is not correct, you are spinning crap.

Ball was very well known as a junior he was an elite cricketer and footballer, in fact many said as a junior he was a better cricketer, but he was never better than average as a runner and athlete.

[B.M]

Who did Ball play premier cricket with?

[B.M]

Such players make a big difference, without being flashy.

What is interesting about Ball, however, is that he wasn't born to be such a player.

"When I was drafted, I was actually one of the quickest guys over 20m," he said.

Such was Ball's athletic prowess as a junior, his test results from the 2001 AFL Draft Camp have recently been published in an AFL youth coaching manual as an example of the draft camp profile of an outstanding athlete and potential AFL player.

He carried the perfect physical dimensions for a midfielder, had good anaerobic power scores and skinfold measurements that showed he was in excellent shape.

What strikes the reader instantly, however, was Ball's speed. He was in the top three per cent at the camp, recording a 20m sprint time of 2.85 seconds. The AFL average in the 20m sprint test at the camp is now 3.03 seconds.

Now, glimpses of Ball's pace off the mark are mostly seen when he charges through a stoppage, hitting the contest with the ferocious intent only a man trying to smash down a door can match.

"I certainly had to change my game a bit, struggling with groin injuries," Ball said.

He became the sort of player who reads the game, works the angles, finds space and hunts the ball. And he worked to become better at performing the skills he needed to be that sort of player.

"One thing these days with the speed of the game and the pressure others put on is being clean and being a one-touch player," he said.