Butler subbed out

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WellardSaint
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Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998291Post WellardSaint »

There's been rumours etc about RTB having 'non-negotiables' which I imagine is speculation from folks who want to sound like they are 'in the know' but it's really just a gut feel from RTB's coaching history.

Regardless, there's maybe team rules etc that may be enforced more strictly than under Cuddles' reign.

A sign (just IMHFO) could be Butler getting subbed.
Maybe Butler had a slight injury? Or maybe RTB decided that Butler hasn't contributed enough or had failed to do certain things.
We won't know unless Tony74 tells us.

But it's a fact that Butler's first year with us was productive goals-wise, then he's gotten far fewer goals.

Will be interesting to see if Butler keeps his spot when we have a full list to choose from.
I think Gresh is a lock for F50 or bench, Higgo+Butler have to fight for the other small fwd spot.
Hopefully the coaches get rid of the multiple small fwd model.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998292Post skeptic »

So… Butler may have been injured or broken a not negotiable that may or may not exist. And he’s competing with Higgins.
And he’s kicking less goals than before.

Hot take.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998295Post saintsRrising »

WellardSaint wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 12:02am
A sign (just IMHFO) could be Butler getting subbed.
My take is that Butler was subbed out as the coaches wanted a bigger player in Wood to play forward more, rather than our three rotating small forwards.

That meant one of the three small forwards had to go, and as we know this was Butler.

Paton you may recall has been being given time playing Wing in the practice games to broaden his versatility.


The Sub now is a tactical Sub, and not an injury Sub, and our coaches used it exactly as it was intended to be used.


Come the Dogs Game it will be interesting to see if the selection panel decides that 3 small forwards is one two many going into the game. Now injuries mean out options are limited, but it could mean say Sharman in for a small forward.






The slight bad luck was that they flipped the switched just before Webster got injured.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998299Post Yorkeys »

Unfortunately Butler has been a weak link for some time. Cannot kick a useful distance. Easily rebounded from. Can't take an over head grab. Seems influential in the playing group, but. Time must be coming for him to be parked to let a younger guy that can kick and mark have a consistent go. Looking busy is not the same as actually contributing. Can't remember Richmond letting a small forward leave that has gone on to play well elsewhere (?)


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998301Post Vortex »

saintsRrising wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 1:41am
WellardSaint wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 12:02am
A sign (just IMHFO) could be Butler getting subbed.
My take is that Butler was subbed out as the coaches wanted a bigger player in Wood to play forward more, rather than our three rotating small forwards.

That meant one of the three small forwards had to go, and as we know this was Butler.

Paton you may recall has been being given time playing Wing in the practice games to broaden his versatility.


The Sub now is a tactical Sub, and not an injury Sub, and our coaches used it exactly as it was intended to be used.


Come the Dogs Game it will be interesting to see if the selection panel decides that 3 small forwards is one two many going into the game. Now injuries mean out options are limited, but it could mean say Sharman in for a small forward.






The slight bad luck was that they flipped the switched just before Webster got injured.
I think they knew Webster wasn't right and also wanted to get Wood to play more in the forward line.

I doubt Sharman will be selected until he's shown something at Sandy, it would be like playing with one man short and just can't see it until Sharman earns a spot.

Cordy playing against his old side.

Lyon won't be changing the structure he's been training all summer.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998302Post Vortex »

Yorkeys wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 7:46am Unfortunately Butler has been a weak link for some time. Cannot kick a useful distance. Easily rebounded from. Can't take an over head grab. Seems influential in the playing group, but. Time must be coming for him to be parked to let a younger guy that can kick and mark have a consistent go. Looking busy is not the same as actually contributing. Can't remember Richmond letting a small forward leave that has gone on to play well elsewhere (?)
Provided said younger guy can earn his spot by pushing Buttler out. Lyon doesn't gift games based on age and he isn't tanking either.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998304Post meher baba »

It is in the nature of crumbing forwards is that they are invisible for much of the time: sometimes the ball simply doesn't come their way for an entire game.

Sunday was one of Butler's more forgettable ones statistically, and he stuffed up one shot on goal (I think his running kick was a reasonable effort: he had to attempt it regardless of whether a defender was in the way or not). But only insiders can know he performed in terms of the coaching staff's key indicators, which - given Lyon's coaching style - will have a lot to do with his positional play and the extent to which he helped to create space for others and squeeze Fremantle's moves out of defence.

I would suspect that Butler is currently behind Higgins in the thinking of Lyon and Harves, but there is plenty of room for both up forward if both are performing well. I wouldn't read all that much into Butler being subbed out on Sunday: I suspect that, barring injury, most teams in most games are going to sub someone off after three quarters. The intention seems to have been to play both Gresham and Wood further forward in the final period, which meant that Paton for Butler made perfect sense (except, of course, for the fact that Webster got injured at the same time: presumably after the paperwork for Butler coming off had already been submitted).

Due to the horrendous injury situation, Butler will most likely get another go on Saturday night, and he might well go better. He's a skilled performer.

I must say I am really sick and tired of the preoccupation so many posters on both SS and BF have with identifying scapegoats about whom they become obsessed about voting off the island (if they in fact had a vote) Personally, I couldn't give a stuff at this stage about who we are going to let go or trade at the end of the season, and I think those who seem to be obsessed with the topic might need to seek help.

I am always keen to see all of our players perform as well as they possibly can. Look at Byrnes, whom most fans had written off. Plenty of posters have written off Webster over recent years, but how we will miss him on Saturday. Some don't seem ever to want to see Billings, Ross or Jones back, but IMO they'd be excellent contributors to Lyon's game plan when fit.

You can all bang on as much as you want about wanting the likes of Ross and Webster and Jones and Billings and co to make way for the "kids", but we can see that what mostly happens when these guys and other senior players get injured is that we have to watch the "also rans" running around. There are some exciting kids in our playing squad - Windhager, NWM and Owens in particular (and Phillipou not far off) - but they are already in our top 22. Apart from Byrnes, who might possibly have made a breakthrough on Sunday night, the rest look like they will continue to struggle. Bytel looked ok on Sunday but he is pretty slow-moving by AFL standards. The current coaching staff seem to share my view of Sharman, which is that he might eventually turn into a GOP in the backline, but can't seem to break into the forward line ahead of players who are younger and less-experienced than him. Highmore and Connolly look to be out of the picture unless and until they can make a Byrnes-like leap in perfromance.

Not every AFL player can be a star and every team features a collection of reasonable quality, experienced players. Butler is one of these, as are Billings (if you can forget about where he was picked in the draft), Jones, Butler, Webster and Ross (who I actually think is a level above the others, but so many seem to disagree). We're lucky to have them. If the injured ones can get fit, I expect all of them to make a contribution this year.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998307Post Otiman »

We will know on Thursday evening.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998311Post meher baba »

Otiman wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 8:24am We will know on Thursday evening.
True enough. But I for one will be quite surprised if he is left out. Fremantle represents a difficult team for a player like Butler to shine against: they seemed to be obsessed with a slow, ultra-safe build up coming out of defence which presented few opportunities for making tackles inside our forward 50. (I thought it was an antediluvian style of football and, if they don't change it, they are going to end up well down the table in 2023.)

The Dogs like to move the ball forward quickly at all costs from just about anywhere on the field. Small forwards will have plenty of opportunities on Saturday night. Unfortunately, Higgins doesn't tackle very often. Gresham does, but he is also needed for spells in the middle. So Butler could be very handy. I admit that his form has been pretty poor for quite a while, but perhaps that was more of a problem with how he was being played that with his own abilities.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998314Post Vortex »

meher baba wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 8:36am
Otiman wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 8:24am We will know on Thursday evening.
True enough. But I for one will be quite surprised if he is left out. Fremantle represents a difficult team for a player like Butler to shine against: they seemed to be obsessed with a slow, ultra-safe build up coming out of defence which presented few opportunities for making tackles inside our forward 50. (I thought it was an antediluvian style of football and, if they don't change it, they are going to end up well down the table in 2023.)

The Dogs like to move the ball forward quickly at all costs from just about anywhere on the field. Small forwards will have plenty of opportunities on Saturday night. Unfortunately, Higgins doesn't tackle very often. Gresham does, but he is also needed for spells in the middle. So Butler could be very handy. I admit that his form has been pretty poor for quite a while, but perhaps that was more of a problem with how he was being played that with his own abilities.
Absolute baseline decision by Lyon would be maybe to start Buttler of as Sub to invite someone on the list to take his spot but as you allude to, I can' see Lyon cutting off his nose to spite his face by replacing him with a player that isn't a better option.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998315Post The_Dud »

3 small forwards is too many.

2 tackles inside 50 for the game is deplorable.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998318Post spert »

Yorkeys wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 7:46am Unfortunately Butler has been a weak link for some time. Cannot kick a useful distance. Easily rebounded from. Can't take an over head grab. Seems influential in the playing group, but. Time must be coming for him to be parked to let a younger guy that can kick and mark have a consistent go. Looking busy is not the same as actually contributing. Can't remember Richmond letting a small forward leave that has gone on to play well elsewhere (?)
Richmond mate tells me other small forwards overtook him, and he went back to RIchmond VFL


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998322Post saynta »

[quote="meher baba" post_id=1998304 time=1679433527 user_id





I must say I am really sick and tired of the preoccupation so many posters on both SS and BF have with identifying scapegoats about whom they become obsessed about voting off the island (if they in fact had a vote) Personally, I couldn't give a stuff at this stage about who we are going to let go or trade at the end of the season, and I think those who seem to be obsessed with the topic might need to seek help.


[/quote]

so true


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998323Post Saints58 »

saintsRrising wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 1:41am
WellardSaint wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 12:02am
A sign (just IMHFO) could be Butler getting subbed.
My take is that Butler was subbed out as the coaches wanted a bigger player in Wood to play forward more, rather than our three rotating small forwards.

That meant one of the three small forwards had to go, and as we know this was Butler.

Paton you may recall has been being given time playing Wing in the practice games to broaden his versatility.


The Sub now is a tactical Sub, and not an injury Sub, and our coaches used it exactly as it was intended to be used.


Come the Dogs Game it will be interesting to see if the selection panel decides that 3 small forwards is one two many going into the game. Now injuries mean out options are limited, but it could mean say Sharman in for a small forward.






The slight bad luck was that they flipped the switched just before Webster got injured.





I really don't find the sub being much advantage if a player gets subbed out for tactical purpures then a injury occurs that player should be allowed to go back on that would be tactical right now its roll the dice and hope no player gets injured.
So coaches will not sub players out for fear of someone getting injured and being a player down.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998328Post CQ SAINT »

We used all our 75 interchanges and nursed Clark through the game but he went at full tilt for 60%.

Crouch, Cordy, Bytel, Stocker, Higgins were all under 80% TOG

Webster was only at 50% when he came off and was unlucky with his injury.

Butler probably gets a reprieve unless Ross is fit and can run and rotate off half back, at a reduced time on ground %, as we did with Webster, rotating our mids consistently, who are attacking from half back.

While we have had a number of injuries, everyone who played looks fit and with a good game plan in play and 24 guys who are actually pretty fit, we are able to share output according to a system.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998329Post spert »

Against Freo, their backs were taking easy marks, as Butler and Higgins are not strong overhead, and were too small to contest overhead against their man. We would have snagged maybe a few more goals had we had another marking option down there. The Dogs will drop another tall in defence if we stay with that structure.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998335Post samoht »

I'd rather 2 mid-sized players - who can also contest in the air and use their bodies - than 2 small forwards for that reason, spert.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that we don't have the required skills or poise to kick the ball to the advantage of our smalls - apart from that beautifully-weighted kick by Mason Wood to Gresham. That was a rarity.

The ball comes out too easily out of our forward 50 with our smalls being easily outmarked. This needs to stop.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998336Post CQ SAINT »

spert wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 11:16am Against Freo, their backs were taking easy marks, as Butler and Higgins are not strong overhead, and were too small to contest overhead against their man. We would have snagged maybe a few more goals had we had another marking option down there. The Dogs will drop another tall in defence if we stay with that structure.
Which tall? Jones and Lobb look unlikely, we have Cordy and they only have tall lanky kids yp forward.

They will probably want the leg race.


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998337Post The Fireman »

I reckon Butler would be a good match up for the dogs small runners


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998339Post spert »

CQ SAINT wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 12:01pm
spert wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 11:16am Against Freo, their backs were taking easy marks, as Butler and Higgins are not strong overhead, and were too small to contest overhead against their man. We would have snagged maybe a few more goals had we had another marking option down there. The Dogs will drop another tall in defence if we stay with that structure.
Which tall? Jones and Lobb look unlikely, we have Cordy and they only have tall lanky kids yp forward.

They will probably want the leg race.
Bevo is a smart operator, but I don't know their list well enough. It is one thing having three crumbers down there, but if the opposition is marking the ball as easy as Fro were, then there's not much to crumb


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Re: Butler subbed out

Post: # 1998341Post CQ SAINT »

samoht wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 11:54am I'd rather 2 mid-sized players - who can also contest in the air and use their bodies - than 2 small forwards for that reason, spert.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that we don't have the required skills or poise to kick the ball to the advantage of our smalls - apart from that beautifully-weighted kick by Mason Wood to Gresham. That was a rarity.

The ball comes out too easily out of our forward 50 with our smalls being easily outmarked. This needs to stop.
I dont think it will be long until we only have 3 full time forwards, Higgins, King and Membrey.

Caminiti doesn't look out of place as a ruck forward and Billings, Gresham, Phillipou and Owens can all run through the midfield.


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