Team Vs Eagles June 22nd

[thejiggingsaint]

Fair comment to a large degree skeptic, but (IMHO) the period of (as you call it) "erratic team selections" will continue until AR and the coaching/football department hammer out the best team (and strategy for that team) to take us forward. As I say, it's not the most rewarding time to be a Sainter (results-wise) but there will be (Im certain) many of us who will look back on this period with a degree of satisfaction in knowing we stuck fast with the club during our rebuild!

[stinger]

stanley minchington..Players that cant get a kick in the vfl....

minch has been doing okay last few weeks....the coch probably wants to have a good look at him.....he's not responsible for the saints present bad form or position on the ladder

[Cairnsman]

This is the season of (perceived) "strange selection choices" at St Kilda. I'm one of those who actually believes that this is simply one part of a long-term process to re-establish the club as a power, and I'm prepared to go along with it.

the sad part Jiggs, is that no it's not

our team selections have extremely erratic since mid 2010. IMO it's the biggest contributing to the state of our current list. Everyone says it's because we drafted poorly... I think it's because of our inability to develop the talent we had (in context of course)

I don't know what's sad about it, it's just a game of footy first of all and I just don't get how you can say our problems have anything to do with team selections. I reckon you are closer to the mark poor drafting and development. If you accept that then it is a contradiction to say our performances are down to weekly team selections...just doesn't make sense.

[White Winmar]

I'm disappointed to see Bruce out of the team. I thought he'd showed a bit in the preceding weeks. I'd rate him as one of our successes for this year. I still think he'll be an important player for us in the future.

[Spinner]

Disappointed about Bruce. Happy Murdoch is getting a chance, seem to like him a lot more than Saunders. Doesn't get as much of the pill but is a decent kick and seems a lot more composed.

Not sure on Saunders still. Would like to hear others thoughts. Seems a bit frantic when he gets it.

Reckon the bench will be Ross Weller Savage and Jones.

Not sure on Minch either, havnt been impressed at Sandi with him.

[gringo]

Disappointed about Bruce. Happy Murdoch is getting a chance, seem to like him a lot more than Saunders. Doesn't get as much of the pill but is a decent kick and seems a lot more composed.

Not sure on Saunders still. Would like to hear others thoughts. Seems a bit frantic when he gets it.

Reckon the bench will be Ross Weller Savage and Jones.

Not sure on Minch either, havnt been impressed at Sandi with him.

I like Saunders more than Murdoch. Has more pace.

[Sobraz]

Disappointed about Bruce. Happy Murdoch is getting a chance, seem to like him a lot more than Saunders. Doesn't get as much of the pill but is a decent kick and seems a lot more composed.

Not sure on Saunders still. Would like to hear others thoughts. Seems a bit frantic when he gets it.

Reckon the bench will be Ross Weller Savage and Jones.

Not sure on Minch either, havnt been impressed at Sandi with him.

I like Saunders more than Murdoch. Has more pace.

I like Murdoch more than Saunders. cleaner by foot & good decision maker. Saunders has a dip, but a bit of headless chook about him..

[busso mick]

Disappointed about Bruce. Happy Murdoch is getting a chance, seem to like him a lot more than Saunders. Doesn't get as much of the pill but is a decent kick and seems a lot more composed.

Not sure on Saunders still. Would like to hear others thoughts. Seems a bit frantic when he gets it.

Reckon the bench will be Ross Weller Savage and Jones.

Not sure on Minch either, havnt been impressed at Sandi with him.

I like Saunders more than Murdoch. Has more pace.

I like Murdoch more than Saunders. cleaner by foot & good decision maker. Saunders has a dip, but a bit of headless chook about him..

Colonel Saunders

[skeptic]

I don't know what's sad about it, it's just a game of footy first of all and I just don't get how you can say our problems have anything to do with team selections. I reckon you are closer to the mark poor drafting and development. If you accept that then it is a contradiction to say our performances are down to weekly team selections...just doesn't make sense.

When I say team selections and development, I mean over a longer term

For example, someone said in this thread that you can't say Lee hasn't had his chances... this season he's played 1.5 games so far and at a 194cm was also played in the ruck when he is a forward... his best position is as a forward. This in a team that does not favor forwards at the moment. Either way you look at it, so far this season, he has been used in a way that maximises his chances of looking poor and minimises his chances of looking good unless he can do some sort of super human effort...
5 goals from 5 amazing contested marks in a 15 goal loss off poor delivery. Not going to happen.

Now looking at a few others...
Siposs... came as a forward, looked good initiallly as a forward, stagnated, then spent the entire previous off season training as a HBF... played 2 games as a HBF then moved into a mid/forward role. Then moved more to a medium forward role. Has had what 2 games this season, and some fans feel like he played well enough to hold his spot, was then dropped. As a player over 3 seasons, he's not really been developed in a clear role for more than 6 months at a time, and he's not really had an extended run at it

Sam Dunnell has been alternating btw HBF/HFF for as long as I can remember. He started as a forward and was moved back to a HBF despite us having an abundance of players for that position... barely got a look in down back, was then swung back forward and has 1 season to prove himself. Played one game this season in a team that was trounced despite solid VFL. Again expectation off limited opportunity to do something big. It's a crap way to go about it

Look at Tom Ledger... what did he play??? 8 games'ish. 20+ possessions in all of them minus those he was the sub. Had 2 really good games against mediocre opposition at the end of last season despite having a solid to good year at Sandy. Everyone said his disposal was poor... at senior level he didn't play a poor game.
What chance did he actually have to do well though... as a club we maximised his chances of failure unless he did something truly magnificent/Harvey'esk that even Rob wasn't producing at that age.

We have an approach that seems to often result in a player not playing much over several seasons whilst performing well at VFL level, meanwhile certain seniors players are gifted 15-20 games whilst playing at a mediocre standard... then said player gets 2-4 games in a broken run to prove themselves. Then when they can't... because it's stupid and few players can just take to AFL like that, we say "oh well they were never going to make it anyway".
I'm not saying that our recruiting is not poor, clearly we've made some howlers but there are a lot of players on our list that clearly have/did have potential...
Ross
Lee
Dunnell
Siposs
Milera
Simpkin
Shenton

That have been horribly under utilised and now have an unexpected expectation on them to siddenly do something brilliant. All of them have at 1 point or another this season have appeared to have been written off and I'm glad that at least a couple of them are having a decent crack at it now

Then you have guys like
Ledger
Lynch
Winmar (forced to train really hard, built up and then was cut because we picked some1 up in the PSD)

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

[Junction Oval]

I too am concerned about what seems to be the lack of a clear development programme for players. We are not playing for a spot in the finals, so we should be prepared to give young guys at least 3-4 consecutive games. Likewise, swapping them for back to forward and vice versa, all the time doesn't help them settle and learn their craft.

Siposs for instance, who is improving his attack on the ball, should be given more consecutive games. The coaches can then better judge his overall performance, instead of on a game-to-game basis. This goes for others too.

[FQF]

I don't know what's sad about it, it's just a game of footy first of all and I just don't get how you can say our problems have anything to do with team selections. I reckon you are closer to the mark poor drafting and development. If you accept that then it is a contradiction to say our performances are down to weekly team selections...just doesn't make sense.

When I say team selections and development, I mean over a longer term

For example, someone said in this thread that you can't say Lee hasn't had his chances... this season he's played 1.5 games so far and at a 194cm was also played in the ruck when he is a forward... his best position is as a forward. This in a team that does not favor forwards at the moment. Either way you look at it, so far this season, he has been used in a way that maximises his chances of looking poor and minimises his chances of looking good unless he can do some sort of super human effort...
5 goals from 5 amazing contested marks in a 15 goal loss off poor delivery. Not going to happen.

Now looking at a few others...
Siposs... came as a forward, looked good initiallly as a forward, stagnated, then spent the entire previous off season training as a HBF... played 2 games as a HBF then moved into a mid/forward role. Then moved more to a medium forward role. Has had what 2 games this season, and some fans feel like he played well enough to hold his spot, was then dropped. As a player over 3 seasons, he's not really been developed in a clear role for more than 6 months at a time, and he's not really had an extended run at it

Sam Dunnell has been alternating btw HBF/HFF for as long as I can remember. He started as a forward and was moved back to a HBF despite us having an abundance of players for that position... barely got a look in down back, was then swung back forward and has 1 season to prove himself. Played one game this season in a team that was trounced despite solid VFL. Again expectation off limited opportunity to do something big. It's a crap way to go about it

Look at Tom Ledger... what did he play??? 8 games'ish. 20+ possessions in all of them minus those he was the sub. Had 2 really good games against mediocre opposition at the end of last season despite having a solid to good year at Sandy. Everyone said his disposal was poor... at senior level he didn't play a poor game.
What chance did he actually have to do well though... as a club we maximised his chances of failure unless he did something truly magnificent/Harvey'esk that even Rob wasn't producing at that age.

We have an approach that seems to often result in a player not playing much over several seasons whilst performing well at VFL level, meanwhile certain seniors players are gifted 15-20 games whilst playing at a mediocre standard... then said player gets 2-4 games in a broken run to prove themselves. Then when they can't... because it's stupid and few players can just take to AFL like that, we say "oh well they were never going to make it anyway".
I'm not saying that our recruiting is not poor, clearly we've made some howlers but there are a lot of players on our list that clearly have/did have potential...
Ross
Lee
Dunnell
Siposs
Milera
Simpkin
Shenton

That have been horribly under utilised and now have an unexpected expectation on them to siddenly do something brilliant. All of them have at 1 point or another this season have appeared to have been written off and I'm glad that at least a couple of them are having a decent crack at it now

Then you have guys like
Ledger
Lynch
Winmar (forced to train really hard, built up and then was cut because we picked some1 up in the PSD)

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

+1 It's very concerning. And the usual counter-argument that guys like Ledger, Winmar etc. won't get drafted by any other clubs, does not prove anything in my eyes.

[axcellence]

On the team front - Eagles won't have anyone like Glass to take intercept marks like he did last time. But, on Saints side, we are missing Dunstan who played really well against them. Really hoping that Michington takes it up to the Coasters. We are really lacking forward half pressure.

[Cairnsman]

I don't know what's sad about it, it's just a game of footy first of all and I just don't get how you can say our problems have anything to do with team selections. I reckon you are closer to the mark poor drafting and development. If you accept that then it is a contradiction to say our performances are down to weekly team selections...just doesn't make sense.

When I say team selections and development, I mean over a longer term

For example, someone said in this thread that you can't say Lee hasn't had his chances... this season he's played 1.5 games so far and at a 194cm was also played in the ruck when he is a forward... his best position is as a forward. This in a team that does not favor forwards at the moment. Either way you look at it, so far this season, he has been used in a way that maximises his chances of looking poor and minimises his chances of looking good unless he can do some sort of super human effort...
5 goals from 5 amazing contested marks in a 15 goal loss off poor delivery. Not going to happen.

Now looking at a few others...
Siposs... came as a forward, looked good initiallly as a forward, stagnated, then spent the entire previous off season training as a HBF... played 2 games as a HBF then moved into a mid/forward role. Then moved more to a medium forward role. Has had what 2 games this season, and some fans feel like he played well enough to hold his spot, was then dropped. As a player over 3 seasons, he's not really been developed in a clear role for more than 6 months at a time, and he's not really had an extended run at it

Sam Dunnell has been alternating btw HBF/HFF for as long as I can remember. He started as a forward and was moved back to a HBF despite us having an abundance of players for that position... barely got a look in down back, was then swung back forward and has 1 season to prove himself. Played one game this season in a team that was trounced despite solid VFL. Again expectation off limited opportunity to do something big. It's a crap way to go about it

Look at Tom Ledger... what did he play??? 8 games'ish. 20+ possessions in all of them minus those he was the sub. Had 2 really good games against mediocre opposition at the end of last season despite having a solid to good year at Sandy. Everyone said his disposal was poor... at senior level he didn't play a poor game.
What chance did he actually have to do well though... as a club we maximised his chances of failure unless he did something truly magnificent/Harvey'esk that even Rob wasn't producing at that age.

We have an approach that seems to often result in a player not playing much over several seasons whilst performing well at VFL level, meanwhile certain seniors players are gifted 15-20 games whilst playing at a mediocre standard... then said player gets 2-4 games in a broken run to prove themselves. Then when they can't... because it's stupid and few players can just take to AFL like that, we say "oh well they were never going to make it anyway".
I'm not saying that our recruiting is not poor, clearly we've made some howlers but there are a lot of players on our list that clearly have/did have potential...
Ross
Lee
Dunnell
Siposs
Milera
Simpkin
Shenton

That have been horribly under utilised and now have an unexpected expectation on them to siddenly do something brilliant. All of them have at 1 point or another this season have appeared to have been written off and I'm glad that at least a couple of them are having a decent crack at it now

Then you have guys like
Ledger
Lynch
Winmar (forced to train really hard, built up and then was cut because we picked some1 up in the PSD)

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

It doesn't help changing coaches every 2 years and having the clubs intellectual property and planning locked to the individual.

It's why we have to get to a point where the coach only fills a spot in a structure and plan that is owned by the club. Think Geelong and Swans.

Recruiting, Coaching and development all have to be working the same plan. Club needs stability and it needs to hold it's nerve over the next 3-5 years.

Apparently development of players at Port is what they've done as good as anything over and above some pretty handing recruiting and this was all happening while they were changing coaches every two years.

Stability, Stability, Stability.

[Saint wagga]

Two articles just posted recently on the club website, one talking about Rooey wanting to play further afield, the other talling about Richo backing in Tommy Lee to make a fist of it as a forward...sounds like the club is going into reactionary mode, starting to respond to popular comment...the last time this started happening, S Watters was gone

but seriously...i'm in favour of both these things...Rooey playing up the ground, and Tommy Lee getting a good go at it to show us something...I really feel with Lee, that he's already shown enough in his back half of last year...i don't feel like he's a completely blank canvass, he's got some browny points in my book (not that that counts for diddly squat in the real world)...the guy kicked 17 goals last year!! To be made a scapegoat for last weeks performace was so harsh from Richo, 75% of our team played so poorly...if it's not just an old fashioned rev up, then i'm starting to worry about Richo's ability to manage game day in the big chair!

[thejiggingsaint]

And MORE Stability! I'm with you al the way as far as that goes Cairnsman. I'm not sure where everybody else was last season, but I came into 2014 with no expectations other than seeing a rookie (Senior) Coach try to get a team (that won only five games last season) through the FIRST season of a L-O-N-G rebuild. Thus far, while being disappointed with some of the performances, I've been unsurprised, and certainly not depressed/demoralised by any stretch of the imagination. I can almost hear the cries of derision from here! I know them pretty much by heart: I'm ; "accepting mediocrity" "looking through rose-coloured glasses" "being unrealistic" blah blah blah!
Now I agree that Josh Bruce has been one of the brighter lights on the horizon, and I'm surprised at his omission from the squad, it could JUST be that the coach wants NO BODY getting comfortable with their spot in the side, building competition for places, yes I KNOW...even in one languishing at the bottom of the ladder. That's just my take on it. Josh Bruce could well become a key player at our club, this (omission) could be part of his education? For now, I'm backing the Coach and Football department to continue with their plan to bring success to our club.

GO Saints! (To hell with the rest!)

[stinger]

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

two boys from your neck of the woods....cripps and hutchins....neither given a chance.....

[CURLY]

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

two boys from your neck of the woods....cripps and hutchins....neither given a chance.....

Both no good.

[kosifantutti]

StK/WC;
Int; Ross, Ray, Murdoch, Weller.
Emerg, Jones, Stanley, Dunell.
In Gwilt, Milera, Savage, Minchington
Out Jones, Bruce, Dunstan, Saunders

Interchange; Cripps, Ellis, Lycett, Shuey.
Emergencies; Brennan, Hill, McGinnity.
Shuey in for Yeo.

[kosifantutti]

I don't know why they bother naming interchange. It's totally different from what they named yesterday and probably different from what will happen on Sunday.

[saintbob]

I'm just waiting for the investigation to start, surely the AFL will accuse us of tanking if we keep picking blokes like Lee and Jones!!!

[stinger]

I'm just waiting for the investigation to start, surely the AFL will accuse us of tanking if we keep picking blokes like Lee and Jones!!!

my thoughts too.....

[stinger]

Our approach is terrible
(I'm sure there were others too more recently that I can't think of at this very moment)
That deserved more opportunity then they got and were labelled mediocre

I reckon other clubs develop there players a lot better then we do ours whereas we tend to say they were never good enough

two boys from your neck of the woods....cripps and hutchins....neither given a chance.....

Both no good.

we could do with hutchins now,....

[3rd generation saint]

I just wonder regarding Bruce due to him not having that many games under his belt if it is a fitness thing.
It might just be he can't as yet run out successive games at the top level, so every now and then he goes back for a week or two.
That is the only logic I can find to explain why he was demoted.
I still would have played Stanley, especially with West Coast's ruck combination, plus Stanley does well against Natanui.

[Con Gorozidis]

The investigation would be over pretty quick:

Judge: Clint Jones played how many games?
Saints: Well 150 in his career and 17 in 2014.
Judge: Guilty of Tanking. Next.

[kosifantutti]

I'm just waiting for the investigation to start, surely the AFL will accuse us of tanking if we keep picking blokes like Lee and Jones!!!

Jones is out.