Time for 'Kosi' to stand up - The Age

[GSG]

God - I'm so sick of these journos. Round 2 and what do I read .... time for Kosi to stand up. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say .... good to see Kosi stand up!

[Marcus1232]

God - I'm so sick of these journos. Round 2 and what do I read .... time for Kosi to stand up. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say .... good to see Kosi stand up!

agreed

[Bernard Shakey]

He is labelled inconsistent because he does not produce on a weekly, fortnightly or even monthly basis.

Not only has he been inconsistent, I will go so far as to say he was ineffective for most of 2008.

Hopefully he has turned the corner and can regularly contribute to the team performance each week.

[st.byron]

Look the reason I think that this whole consistency argument is bullshyte is not only because of the serious injuries he's had. I mean talk about comparing him with Roo, it's not a cheese for cheese comparison in itself purely for the fact that Roo has played all of his career in the forward line. Kosi has played mostly as a Ruck by a coach that didn't believe in Rucks and clearly Kosi was punching out of his weight division as a ruckman. He has played forward and also in defence so how the hell can he be measured at all let alone as being consistent. Now I ask again on what objective measurement is he being labelled inconsistent.

Facts and figures please...

Like I said, I'm not going to trawl through all of the stats like I did last yer to provide numerical evidence of Kosi's inconsistency. I haven't got time. I'm happy with the fact that I've done it before and the evidence is there.
Also, I'm not comparing him to Roo. It's not the point.

You cite moving him around as a reason the inconsistent label is unfair, but you could just as easily argue that the reason that he's been moved around is that he hasn't really made any position his own.
Agree that he was punching out of his weight as a ruckman. Was never going to be a first grade ruckman, just not big enough.

How to measure his inconsistency then? Which seems to be your major issue.
Simple answer IMO. Measure him against his own performances. At his best he's awesome. At his worst he's poor. For too much of his career his contributions have been towards the lower end of the scale.
Or measure him by Frawley's benchmark. Frawley reckons a really good player makes a telling contribution 3 out of 4 games. Kosi has been nowhere near this.
Or how about the fact that Kosi himself said at the start of 2007 that is was time for him to start making consistent telling contributions. He himself acknowledged his inconsistency and frustration with this.
There's a couple of ways to measure his consistency and acknowledgment from the man himself. If they're not enough for you, then how about you provide 'facts and figures' supporting the argument that he has been consistent?
It's easy to just keep on saying, "no that's bulls***". How about you provide some evidence yourself?

[hotdish]

"only one appearance in the top 10 of St Kilda's best and fairest (ninth in 2001)"

Wow, that is damning. Kossi has started the year well. lets hope he can keep it up and cement a top 5 B&F result!

[Longwayfromhome]

Won't be the first high draft pick to become just an ordinary player. Maybe that's all he'll ever be. The coach appears happy with his contributions. Supporters are obviously divided.

[perfectionist]

I think he is a wonderful player. I have never noted any "attitude" problems with him which has led to form reduction. His problem has been the most wretched stretch of injuries imaginable. To the extent that the headline of the article implies that he is to blame for "not standing up" then the article is wrong. Then again, I am well aware that the subs write the headline often totally ignoring the content of the article in order to provoke greater reaction - as can be seen in this thread.

On the general question of "newspapers " well, they are, in fact, at most 10% news but 90% gossip, usually salacious. The little paper is worse than the big paper, but only just.

[bergholt]

it has been around this time that "Kosi" will headbutt a fence, rip a hamstring or belt someone.

This is my quote of the year so far... i love it!

when he fractured his skull at docklands, we were so glum about the whole thing that we joked that he'd probably fall off the stretcher and do more damage. didn't know the skull was fractured at that point, obviously. but after that horrible run of injuries, ya have to laugh, don't ya? otherwise you'd cry.

[Cairnsman]

I'm not comparing him to Roo.

No you're not but Martin Blake is and to use his own words it is not a cheese for cheese comparison.

You cite moving him around as a reason the inconsistent label is unfair, but you could just as easily argue that the reason that he's been moved around is that he hasn't really made any position his own.
Agree that he was punching out of his weight as a ruckman. Was never going to be a first grade ruckman, just not big enough.

You contradict yourself here. You agree that he was punching out of his weight as a ruckman but claim he never made the position his own.

How to measure his inconsistency then? Which seems to be your major issue. Simple answer IMO. Measure him against his own performances. At his best he's awesome. At his worst he's poor. For too much of his career his contributions have been towards the lower end of the scale.
Or measure him by Frawley's benchmark. Frawley reckons a really good player makes a telling contribution 3 out of 4 games. Kosi has been nowhere near this.

Ok so if you measure him against himself in what position then and under what coach and what game plan. Do we measure him against the player that all the romantics want him to be and that is super star no. 2 draft pick that won the rising star in his first year. Frawely's measurement is based on 'Really Good' players' and I think that this is still not the right measurement because do we really want Kosi to be a 'Really Good' player or do we want him to be a 'Team Player' and perform a role that is less spectacular than the one he displayed during a 4 game purple patch in 2005

Or how about the fact that Kosi himself said at the start of 2007 that is was time for him to start making consistent telling contributions. He himself acknowledged his inconsistency and frustration with this.
There's a couple of ways to measure his consistency and acknowledgment from the man himself. If they're not enough for you, then how about you provide 'facts and figures' supporting the argument that he has been consistent?

I remember him saying things along those lines and he also said that he needed to adjust the way he saw himself fitting into the team. He recognised that he didn't need to be the MESSIAH (not his words but I'll use it just to illustrate the point). He didn't need to be the one to always pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Just like we didn't need a 31 year old Ben Cousins to deliver us a premiership we don't need Kosi to be a 'Really Good' player to deliver us a flag. We just need him to play his role as defined by RL and I'm only taking an educated guess here but I don't think that role is one of a mega super star no. 2 draft pick who won the rising star in his first year.

So when you use the word consistency, it must be based upon an objective benchmark and I am just saying I don't think it is the one that was used early on in his career. I get the feeling that RL sees Kosi's position in the team a lot differently than most outsiders do and especially differently to that of our last coach.

[Richter]

We all know Kosi's been inconsistent. We've all been encouraged by his (and the team's) first two rounds in 09. We all want him (as part of the team) to do well.

What else is there that needs to be said?

Good point. It's just a filler article. There's nothing in there that anyone already knows, so ask yourself what's the point of the article?

For that reason I consider it very lazy journalism. Anybody could have written that crap.

I thought that...............

a/ the article is perfectly correct. It uses Kosi to highlight that other players outside of the usual Harvey/Roo/Lenny have stood up for us in the first couple of games - and the implication is that for us to have a decent crack at a flag this will need to be continued through the year. Whilst obvious to us on here, the wider footy public may not be aware of that.

b/ No it doesn't say much new about Kosi. So what, the inconsistency is Kosi's main problem. I have no problem with this being brought up. When it is no longer mentioned it will be clear that it no longer is an issue.

c/ I would happily have the whole age sports section filled with filler articles on the Saints. Miles more interesting than who from the Pies has recently blown their nose. Maybe a page on the indiscretions of players from other clubs will do during the week, a column on the cricket.... other than that a paper full of Saints-related articles would get me reading the thing far more than I presently do.

d/ Part of a trend of seeing more stuff about the Saints in the media. SEN were talking about it this morning. Timmy W commented on how relaxed RL seems and that Channel 7 were thrilled with their chance to follow the Saints during the previous week.

e/ More media exposure = more members, more exposure for our sponsors = better financial position ofr the club = A GOOD THING

[Sobraz]

From the same media group that laude players like Drew Petrie, David Hale, Will Minson, David Hille etc, for the minimal impact they have on games, yet Kosi is expected to dominate games to the extent that he is on par to potentially the best player in the comp, and one of our best ever in Roo...

If kosi was judged on his individual games alone, and not on his no.2 selection, his rising star year (in a dismil side), his 4/5 game hot steak, or Roo, he holds his own as a top line player in the comp 197cm and over...

He has never been a lazy or undisciplined footballer, yet he is the most maligned senior player in our side (dal a close second)... If he didnt put in, i'd accept the criticism, but his efforts and output are extremely underrated, even including his 2008 season....

[st.byron]

I'm not comparing him to Roo.

No you're not but Martin Blake is and to use his own words it is not a cheese for cheese comparison.

You cite moving him around as a reason the inconsistent label is unfair, but you could just as easily argue that the reason that he's been moved around is that he hasn't really made any position his own.
Agree that he was punching out of his weight as a ruckman. Was never going to be a first grade ruckman, just not big enough.

You contradict yourself here. You agree that he was punching out of his weight as a ruckman but claim he never made the position his own.

How to measure his inconsistency then? Which seems to be your major issue. Simple answer IMO. Measure him against his own performances. At his best he's awesome. At his worst he's poor. For too much of his career his contributions have been towards the lower end of the scale.
Or measure him by Frawley's benchmark. Frawley reckons a really good player makes a telling contribution 3 out of 4 games. Kosi has been nowhere near this.

Ok so if you measure him against himself in what position then and under what coach and what game plan. Do we measure him against the player that all the romantics want him to be and that is super star no. 2 draft pick that won the rising star in his first year. Frawely's measurement is based on 'Really Good' players' and I think that this is still not the right measurement because do we really want Kosi to be a 'Really Good' player or do we want him to be a 'Team Player' and perform a role that is less spectacular than the one he displayed during a 4 game purple patch in 2005

Or how about the fact that Kosi himself said at the start of 2007 that is was time for him to start making consistent telling contributions. He himself acknowledged his inconsistency and frustration with this.
There's a couple of ways to measure his consistency and acknowledgment from the man himself. If they're not enough for you, then how about you provide 'facts and figures' supporting the argument that he has been consistent?

I remember him saying things along those lines and he also said that he needed to adjust the way he saw himself fitting into the team. He recognised that he didn't need to be the MESSIAH (not his words but I'll use it just to illustrate the point). He didn't need to be the one to always pull a rabbit out of the hat.

Just like we didn't need a 31 year old Ben Cousins to deliver us a premiership we don't need Kosi to be a 'Really Good' player to deliver us a flag. We just need him to play his role as defined by RL and I'm only taking an educated guess here but I don't think that role is one of a mega super star no. 2 draft pick who won the rising star in his first year.

So when you use the word consistency, it must be based upon an objective benchmark and I am just saying I don't think it is the one that was used early on in his career. I get the feeling that RL sees Kosi's position in the team a lot differently than most outsiders do and especially differently to that of our last coach.

Good post.
Agree that not making the ruck his own is not a fair argument for inconsistency. I was aware of it when I posted but didn't want to lengthen the post by explaining that. Having said that I still think he's been inconsistent whilst being used as a ruckman. It's not that he hasn't made the position his own, it's that his contributions have been inconsistent.

I reckon measuring him against his own performances is valid. He's only had two coaches (three, if you include Blight), so your point about which coach and game plan is tenuous IMO.
Agree that Lyon is almost certainly looking for team oriented things and not the superstar factor, but his inability to consistently deliver in this area is reflected in only one top ten finish in the B&F. If he was consistently delivering against the coaches' benchmarks, whomever the coach and whatever the game plan, he would have done better than that in the B&F.

I also agree that he hasn't been measured against an objective benchmark for much of his career. In fact that's my primary beef with numerous posters who insist that he's a superstar. They measure his status as a player against what he could be rather then what he's actually delivered.
IMO he's been inconsistent. One top ten B&F finish, injury riddled, flashes of brilliance then bugger all. We can keep arguing the toss about the semantics of what inconsistent means and probably bore everyone else on the thread stupid. Maybe we should just agree to disagree that you think he hasn't been inconsistent and I do and that we both hope like hell that he can continue as he's started this season.

[Thinline]

I reckon you'd be bagging the article and author whoever wrote it just because you're sticking up for Kosi no matter what. Admirable loyalty but
no reason not to state the truth.

You reckon, do you?

Serious quantum leap.

To recap for your benefit: lazy, boring story about a subject that is really, really overdone and that served no purpose than to rehash rehashed thoughts by a) a dud ex-coach and b) another dud ex-coach who happened to be a fantastic servant of our club as a player.

To reiterate my (I thought) clearly expressed view: Kosi has been inconsistent in the past (does that sound like excessive Kosi protectionism?); so far this year he's shown very good form.

Question raised: What's new in that?

One other point: essentially what GT is saying is 'the entire time I coached him I didn't make one iota of inroads into improving Kosi as a player'. But GT being GT he'll say anything to get heard and he wouldn't be smart enough to see that he was sledging himself.

Anyway, enough from me on this. I shall make like I wish Blake and his colleagues would and move on to something important...like work...

[Cairnsman]

extremely underrated, even including his 2008 season....

Exactly! He wouldn't have played almost the entire season in an AFL side that made it to a preliminary final if he wasn't doing what the coach expected. So on that basis he must have been consistent. The droping of Dal and Milne proved that RL will not cop crap from any player. At the end of the day RL would seem to be interested in team success and not individual super heroes.

[Sobraz]

In fact that's my primary beef with numerous posters who insist that he's a superstar. They measure his status as a player against what he could be rather then what he's actually delivered.

This is where I disagree...

As one of those posters who rejects the criticism of him, I measure him by his output and effort every week, and do not expect him to perform to the exceptional level he reaches every now and again...

Its those posters that see him occasionally dominate and then expect him to do so all the time, and when he plays just a decent, solid, ordinary game, criticise him for doing nothing and being 'inconsistent'....

His problem is he's set the bar so high, that a comparatively good game is not good enough for many...

[Bernard Shakey]

Let's finish the consistency debate once and for all.

Kosi has consistently underperformed for most of his career.

Ergo, he is consistent.

[st.byron]

This is where I disagree...

As one of those posters who rejects the criticism of him, I measure him by his output and effort every week, and do not expect him to perform to the exceptional level he reaches every now and again...

Fair enough Sobraz. If that's your means of assessing and you see the outcome differently, like Thinline, then fair enough, we just disagree.
Go Sainters.

[Devilhead]

If kosi was judged on his individual games alone, and not on his no.2 selection, his rising star year (in a dismil side), his 4/5 game hot steak, or Roo, he holds his own as a top line player in the comp 197cm and over...

This is the crux right here!!!

If Kosi was picked at No.30 in the National Draft and finished 3rd in the Rising Star this article would never have been written

As it is we are lucky to have a talented 197cm player on our list who when performs at his best is a world beater but when he performs at his worst he is on par with any other normal averagely talented 197cm player

When hope is not pinned onto a shiny image or expectation, it sometimes floats forth and opens

[Cairnsman]

This argument is a little bit like the 'Premiership Window' it's mostly based on perception.

I tell you what I bet you there would have been 15 other clubs falling over themselves to get Kosi to their club and yes that includes Geelong. Geelong would love him right now. And just on that I can't wait to see how our backline goes against their forward line. Actually I can't wait to see our forward line against their backline. Just can't wait till we play the cats for that matter.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Thought the article was pretty spot on.

Some seem to have become bitter with the unfulfilled expectations (note: st. byron wouldn't fit this group IMO - he seems to take issue with anyone using the words "Koschitzke" and "potential" during the same 24 hour period, but his reasoning is pretty clear...) of Kosi, and some retain hope that he'll still establish himself as a star, and has just needed to run himself into form in a single position (seeing as last year pretty much knocked off the just sting some games together theory).

I think the article hit the nail on the head when it said something along the lines of "this is the point we'd expect Kosi to run headfirst into a fence or pull a hammy" - none can deny his run of unlucky and unlikely injuries is mind boggling, and he has a knack for doing it just as he's shown some dominant form.

His first two games of the year have been good - not the short path of 2005 good, but very good games.

But as the article points out, the question has never been whether Kosi can play a couple of good games, or even a couple of great games, it's whether he can over the course of a season provide consistent matchbusting quality.

The issue is that we still to an extent don't really know what Kosi is. Before last year, the last full season was 2001, when he won the rising star. In patches in between he was terrific. In other patches he's been average. Kosi's a tough one to get a good read on... based on last year, most of us wouldn't have had great expectations, but rounds 1 & 2 present hope that 2008 may not have been typical Kosi.

But as the articles main theme goes on, with his history, we who have paid such close attention (Saints fans) certainly aren't going to decide Kosi's the real deal based on 2 games.

[gosaints]

I reckon the most frustrating thing for me with Kosi in the past is the perceived incosistentcy in his effort.
Obviously, i'm only watching him from the outside so I don't know exactly how hard he is putting in but at times in the past he just seemed to be coasting around, especially when things weren't going his way.

What most impressed me with Kosi in round 1 was that in the 1st qtr and for about half of the 2nd qtr he couldn't get near it but he got himself into the game with an improved workrate. He went up the ground, he chased, he tackled and eventually things turned for him.

Last friday night that workrate was there from the 1st bounce and yes he took some great marks and kicked 4 goals but what stood out to me was his defensive pressure and the fact that he laid some great tackles, got himself involved and his confidence grew.

If he can keep that up he will have a good year... Even if he isn't putting the score on the board so to speak, he will be a vital part of this teams success.

[PJ]

Clearly kosi's had issues with consistency but

I will go so far as to say he was ineffective for most of 2008.

How many ineffective goals did he kick by the way?

Perhaps he just didn't live up to your expectations.

[SainterK]

I am heartily sick of the negative Kosi threads, especially given his performance the first two weeks of this year.

Especially some of you that cut a little slack towards other players that perhaps have not lived up to expectations....

I am not just making a judgement on his peformances in the first two rounds, but his obvious efforts to reach fitness and enjoy a solid preseason.

[onlooker]

I'm looking for a consistent effort over the season. Not looking for comparisons with Nick, I want a concerted, fulltime effort for the side without serious injury.

[Solar]

They guy is 25, in his prime.

Those defending him are wasting their breath. If we didn't all believe this guy has the skills and marking ability to be a top 20 player then we would not be having this arguement.

It is time to deliver because 2000 was 9 years ago. He is no spring chicken and has had two good pre-seasons under his belt and a strong bodied team around him.

Time to deliver. Simple as that. The past is what you wrap your fish and chips in.....