Big mid fielders

[Spinner]

Not one single person employed by a club these days gives a stuff about anything other than their own paypacket and it's sustainability.

So why do you bother posting? - morbid curiosity?

Because he won’t stop til all of us ignoramuses understand his philosophical greatness.

Well it is the time of year for Messiahs

Actually Monty Python got it all wrong – it should have been “The Life of Rodgerâ€

[SainterK]

Nah, I don't think we could of carried two engine room players....is there even a team that carries two bottom of the pack types anymore?

Well there you go, I reckon they could have 'carried' two inside types..........now I hope Armitage gets more game time

Selwood/Bartel (Ablett finds his own footy as well)
Jones/Maloney
Kirk/Bolton
Swan/Ball
Black/Rich

At this point I still reckon we need someone who can be a shovel and a creator, not so much another full time shovel?

In and under clearance players can also be creative

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

[MCG-Unit]

Nah, I don't think we could of carried two engine room players....is there even a team that carries two bottom of the pack types anymore?

Well there you go, I reckon they could have 'carried' two inside types..........now I hope Armitage gets more game time

Selwood/Bartel (Ablett finds his own footy as well)
Jones/Maloney
Kirk/Bolton
Swan/Ball
Black/Rich

At this point I still reckon we need someone who can be a shovel and a creator, not so much another full time shovel?

In and under clearance players can also be creative

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

Fair enough K, didn't realize Hayes and Ball only kicked 8 goals between them for 2009

I suppose goal kicking is a massive part of being a creative mid - I also thought winning clearances - and getting inside 50's were also a key part of being a 'creative' mid.

Hayes needs help with in and under work - IMO Armitage can do that, they need to give him several games in a row - maybe Polo can, I don't know. Saints would be in a world of hurt if Hayes went down

[Mr Magic]

Nah, I don't think we could of carried two engine room players....is there even a team that carries two bottom of the pack types anymore?

Well there you go, I reckon they could have 'carried' two inside types..........now I hope Armitage gets more game time

Selwood/Bartel (Ablett finds his own footy as well)
Jones/Maloney
Kirk/Bolton
Swan/Ball
Black/Rich

At this point I still reckon we need someone who can be a shovel and a creator, not so much another full time shovel?

In and under clearance players can also be creative

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

But surely it depends heavily on what your forward structure is?
The other teams you mention do not have key forwards to rely on kicking them a winning score, adn so rely on a much greater contribution from their midfields.
I'm certain that if any of those teams had a Reiwoldt/Kosi/Milne/Schneider type combination playing for them, then their midfielders would be looking more to pass the footy on than taking shots at goal.

Also I'm not 100% certain that Swan is your typical 'in and under' midfielder. I think he's more outside than inside.
I believe that was one of the main driving forces for getting Ball into Collingwood - to give them the inside presence to assist their outside runners Swan, Pendelbury, Thomas etc.

[SainterK]

Nah, I don't think we could of carried two engine room players....is there even a team that carries two bottom of the pack types anymore?

Well there you go, I reckon they could have 'carried' two inside types..........now I hope Armitage gets more game time

Selwood/Bartel (Ablett finds his own footy as well)
Jones/Maloney
Kirk/Bolton
Swan/Ball
Black/Rich

At this point I still reckon we need someone who can be a shovel and a creator, not so much another full time shovel?

In and under clearance players can also be creative

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

Fair enough K, didn't realize Hayes and Ball only kicked 8 goals between them for 2009

I suppose goal kicking is a massive part of being a creative mid - I also thought winning clearances - and getting inside 50's were also a key part of being a 'creative' mid.

Hayes needs help with in and under work - IMO Armitage can do that, they need to give him several games in a row - maybe Polo can, I don't know. Saints would be in a world of hurt if Hayes went down

It wasn't really such a massive part in the past, but the game is trending that way....need more strings in your bow.

Clearances and inside 50's are a huge part, but I don't think it's longer enough to put two players aside for soley that purpose is it?

I agree we need Lenny and one of either Armo/Polo in 2011, but I truly think the expectation will be that they provide their fair share of goals and/or assists.

I agree with MM that Swan is both inside and outside at times, definitely had the freedom to be more outside in 2010 with Ball there.

MM, that would be true if they were involved heavily in the scoring chain, I'm not too sure on those figures? I think Goddard/Dal/Joey provide more in that respect?

[PJ]

You speak to a number of retired players from most eras... and they only speak to 1, 2 or so players they played with.

Completely disagree this a subjective argument based on personal freindships separate to their whole experience rather than a comprehensive understanding of a player at the time of his employment at any club. Even if you did take how many people they still talk to into account it doesn't have any bearing on what they felt being at the club or work situation. People move on.

[PJ]

Not one single person employed by a club these days gives a stuff about anything other than their own paypacket and it's sustainability.

Luke Ball?? - nailed it

[rodgerfox]

Fair enough K, didn't realize Hayes and Ball only kicked 8 goals between them for 2009

I don't think their goal kicking (or lack thereof) is really the fault of the player.

The defensive nature of our game plan, even makes it hard for our forwards to kick goals.

If you're instructed to spend most of your time filling space in defence, and standing on the defensive side of your opponent all the time, it makes it very difficult to kick goals as a midfielder.

[rodgerfox]

Not one single person employed by a club these days gives a stuff about anything other than their own paypacket and it's sustainability.

Luke Ball?? - nailed it

??

Unless he doesn't fit into the 'not one single person' category, then yes, of course Luke Ball.

[rodgerfox]

I agree with MM that Swan is both inside and outside at times, definitely had the freedom to be more outside in 2010 with Ball there.

So did Thomas, Pendlebury and pretty much their entire midfield.


It means that your midfield can attack and get forward of the ball, with the confidence that guys like Ball and Swan will win the contest - or at the least not lose the contest.

Without guys like that, players like Joey and Dal (for example) can't be aggressive and attacking at stoppages.


As I said last year, losing Ball was bad for us - but it was worse in the sense that he was precisely the type of player Collingwood needed to take the next step.
We effectively handed them the flag.

[Mr Magic]

MM, that would be true if they were involved heavily in the scoring chain, I'm not too sure on those figures? I think Goddard/Dal/Joey provide more in that respect?

I believe Goddard is in a different category altogether becasue of his kicking ability.
He is more like Nathan Buckley in that any opportunity to give him the footy around the 50-60m mark will see the team rule invoked - give it to Goddard to have a shot.

His goals kicked during teh season also include those times he spent playing as a forward.

As for Dal and Joey, they are both beautiful kicks of the footy (not as good as BJ ) and so their greater number of goals may well be a reflection of the team's desire to give them the footy rather than let Lenny and/or others have a ping when in a position to have a shot?

I still recall the game when Dal kicked 4/5 in the first quarer against Melbourne, but he was playing as a small forward that day, rather than as a midfielder.
I'm assuming this discussion is based on these players kicking goals when actually playing as midfielders and not small forwards?

[spert]

I'm afraid Raph may struggle to hold a senior spot as he now has chronic injury issues like his brother X, which has kept him on the sidelines for too long, and apart from that, he loses his feet too easy under pressure and loses control of the ball. As much as I would like him to do well, I don't think he's got it.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

This is a massive over simplification. Goals kicked is a terrible way to assess midfielders.

It doesn't matter at all where your teams goals come from - only that they come consistently. The 2009 Saints were 4th in the league in Goals for, and posted the best defense in the history of the 22 round-16 team competition, and "the reality" is that Ball and Hayes contributed 8 goals?

The reality is that their "8 goals" were an utter irrelevancy to the 2009 Saints.

Goals in modern footy are a team stat. Given that we don't have access to things like scoring chain statistics, it makes it incredibly difficult to assess an individuals contribution in this regard. There are too many factors (the most fundamental of which is "where did they get their possessions", the St Kilda midfield simply doesn't push as far forward as many, zoning at the very edge of scoring range) for it to be in any way a meaningful statistic to look at midfielders and compare them based on goals kicked.

[SainterK]

I agree with MM that Swan is both inside and outside at times, definitely had the freedom to be more outside in 2010 with Ball there.

So did Thomas, Pendlebury and pretty much their entire midfield.


It means that your midfield can attack and get forward of the ball, with the confidence that guys like Ball and Swan will win the contest - or at the least not lose the contest.

Without guys like that, players like Joey and Dal (for example) can't be aggressive and attacking at stoppages.


As I said last year, losing Ball was bad for us - but it was worse in the sense that he was precisely the type of player Collingwood needed to take the next step.
We effectively handed them the flag.

We effectively did nothing of the sort, as you said on another thread, the lack of loyalty shown by Luke to walk out is common these days.

Luke improved Collingwood, not St Kilda.

[SainterK]

I agree, but only if the inside types can be creative....

The reality is, that in 09 Lenny and Ball combined for 8 goals, 8!!!

Yes Ball works inside now with Swan, but Swan kicked 24 goals this year MCG-unit, bringing their combined total to 31.

Selwood Bartel combined for 23.
Kirk Bolton combined for 27.

and so on....

See what I was trying to say, 8 goals in 09, hard in this environment of footy to justify both being purely shovels (albeit very good ones)

I too hope Armo can rotate through the midfield, but he needs to kick a few, perhaps even rest forward at times.

This is a massive over simplification. Goals kicked is a terrible way to assess midfielders.

It doesn't matter at all where your teams goals come from - only that they come consistently. The 2009 Saints were 4th in the league in Goals for, and posted the best defense in the history of the 22 round-16 team competition, and "the reality" is that Ball and Hayes contributed 8 goals?

The reality is that their "8 goals" were an utter irrelevancy to the 2009 Saints.

Goals in modern footy are a team stat. Given that we don't have access to things like scoring chain statistics, it makes it incredibly difficult to assess an individuals contribution in this regard. There are too many factors (the most fundamental of which is "where did they get their possessions", the St Kilda midfield simply doesn't push as far forward as many, zoning at the very edge of scoring range) for it to be in any way a meaningful statistic to look at midfielders and compare them based on goals kicked.

I am not over simpifying it at all, I said it's a huge part of modern footy, but said clearances and being a part of a scoring chain are both massive components as well.

Ball didn't fair much better this year, he only kicked 7, I don't see how saying kicking goals isn't either he or Lennys strong suit makes me an over simplifier of things?

I have no probs with Lenny being an inside midfielder and dedicating his enitre role to that, Collingwood would have no issue Luke dedicating his entire role to that, but I think the next guy that helps us inside needs to do more than that.

You don't agree, that's cool, it's an interesting discussion.

[borderbarry]

Did we recruit an inside mid this year, beside our first pick rookie?

[PJ]

Did we recruit an inside mid this year, beside our first pick rookie?

No

Choices - Armo, Steven, Polo - A Smith is too light. I think Heyne would be worth developing but perhaps wouldn't be ready for 2011.

[MCG-Unit]

Fair enough K, didn't realize Hayes and Ball only kicked 8 goals between them for 2009

I don't think their goal kicking (or lack thereof) is really the fault of the player.

The defensive nature of our game plan, even makes it hard for our forwards to kick goals.

If you're instructed to spend most of your time filling space in defence, and standing on the defensive side of your opponent all the time, it makes it very difficult to kick goals as a midfielder.

Yes partly for the reasons you stated - Saints mids just don't push forward enough to be regular goal scorers. In addition, other sides with goal kicking mids, may not have the forward structures the Saints have
therefore they need mids to contribute goals.

If this discussion is about the value of inside mids - I maintain Saints need inside players like Hayes, to win the center clearances and at stoppages

[MCG-Unit]

Did we recruit an inside mid this year, beside our first pick rookie?

Not one from reading their profiles - Polo and maybe Curren
Other than that Armitage may be the other option I think..

I was hoping they would take at least one bigger bodied inside mid

[stinger]

Did we recruit an inside mid this year, beside our first pick rookie?

Not one from reading their profiles - Polo and maybe Curren
Other than that Armitage may be the other option I think..

I was hoping they would take at least one bigger bodied inside mid

armitage is the one who should be given game time...

[MCG-Unit]

Did we recruit an inside mid this year, beside our first pick rookie?

Not one from reading their profiles - Polo and maybe Curren
Other than that Armitage may be the other option I think..

I was hoping they would take at least one bigger bodied inside mid

armitage is the one who should be given game time...

Armitage is about the only other inside mid/clearance player - hope he gets his chance.....

I've not seen enough of Steven on the ball to know whether he can be another inside mid

[borderbarry]

Apparently Curran is an inside mid, but seeing as to how he is only a rookie he must be miles off playing.

[PJ]

Apparently Curran is an inside mid, but seeing as to how he is only a rookie he must be miles off playing.

I'm not so sure that he is that far off. he may have been under consideration at the Sipposs pick.

[gringo]

Sorry I thought this was about the pics.

[Dr Spaceman]

Sorry I thought this was about the pics.

Reasonable mistake gringo.

Both threads relate to blokes with the ability to get the ball out to a team mate