Dogs better list than Saints....Darcy/Walls...

[ThePunter]

We're better coached.

We're mentally tougher.

[rodgerfox]

I think the discussions about 'best lists' are really outdated.

What does it mean now anyway? That we have guys who have good skills? Guys who can run fast?

Years ago, games were won by teams that had lots of players with the above attributes.

These days, games are won by guys carrying out a plan together for 100 minutes.

If you ask a coach today who he'd prefer on his list - a guy with great skills and speed but can't play a role to the letter, or a guy with limited skills and not blessed with speed but who will do precisely what you ask of him every minute of every match, I think the answer would be unanimous.

3-5 years ago, the answer would probably have been different. The days of guys being great at 'kick to kick' in the school yard translating into them being great in a game are gone. Probably more to the point, teams full of guys like this being successful are gone.

The most valuable players today are guys with skill, great defensive skills, great workrate, great leadership and great mental toughness.

So really, I think when assessing a 'list' the guidelines have changed.

I'd now probably assess a list in this way....

Player's fitness and durability.
How many matchwinners.
Consistency of the players.
Ability to stick to a plan.
Skills.
Mental toughness.


If you look at it this way, we're miles ahead of the Bulldogs, and pretty close with Geelong.

If you're assessing the lists by looking at areas such as burst speed of individuals, kicking skills of individuals and other old fashioned but now overrated attributes, then we'd look to be behind some other clubs.

[rodgerfox]

Always thought teams win games not lists.

Swans 2005 was not the most talented list in the League, probably WCE Saints and Geelong miles better.

Who won the flag?

They were the most talented team on the park during the finals.

Geelong had then by 4 goals until they lost 4 players to injury during the second half.
We had 6 of our starting 18 not even play in the prelim.
West Coast lost Braun and Jones before the GF and lost Kerr during the GF.


But, I do agree that the whole 'better list' thing is misguided and certainly outdated.

[Stillwaiting]

I agree with them, the Dogs have a better list, but we have a better team.

Like it.

'cause never a truer word was spoken.

And better coaching and fitness staff

[rodgerfox]

I agree with them, the Dogs have a better list, but we have a better team.

Like it.

'cause never a truer word was spoken.

And better coaching and fitness staff

But that's what people like Walls and Darcy are saying. That the Bulldogs are underperforming because of factors other than their on-field talent.

That they should be better than us because they have more talented footballers at their disposal.

What I question in the whole debate, is in modern football - how do you define a talented footballer?

[samoht]

I reckon you can't simply look at teams in isolation and say one has a better list than the other.

That's because each team matches up differently with another team and each team no matter how strong has its nemesis.

Based on recent results Melbourne is Collingwood's nemesis and Essendon (maybe Carlton now too) is ours.

I think we may in fact match up better against the Dogs than we do against the Bombers and the Blues ?

So from our viewpoint the Bomber's list is just as strong as the Dog's list - maybe even stronger.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

...

Fast forward a few years. Last Sunday on the radio I heard Dal Santo say this

We know that we aren't the most talented list in the comp so we need to work harder than other teams in order to get the results we want

I was absolutely amazed to hear this. Nick Dal Santo is probably in the top 5 most skilled players in this competition and he espoused the most fervently held belief that only hard work can get you results. That is the mark of Ross Lyon. He doesn't just say this stuff. He believes it and most importantly of all he makes the players believe it.

What's the line? The greatest trick the Devil pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist?

I'm not sure how we're getting away with it, but as Sydney did before us, we've convinced the viewing public that we're a bunch of hardworking spuds while boasting wall-to-wall talent. 8 All Australians (though to be fair, one of them's unlikely to play again, and another well past his best). 6 of them selected to those honors over the last 2 years. Yep, there's a team that's short on talent.

Worth having a peruse at some stage of the 2005/6 Sydney Swans, who had a similarly misrepresented reputation. Barry Hall, Adam Goodes, Brett Kirk, Ryan O'Keefe, Craig Bolton and Leo Barry all got honoured for their work in Sydney jumpers.

The Dogs have plenty of talent - but at this stage too much of it has to be describedas "mercurial" to actually put it ahead of proven performers.

[spert]

The Dogs, for all the the media hype, haven't gotten into a Grand Final for a long while -at least we have, but that's another story

[stinger]

we have a win loss ratio over the last 40 odd games....39 to be precise.... second to none......so f*** 'em....

[ace]

Everyone is being nice to the Doggies now that Queen Julia is PM.

The match review panel says Lake's stomach punch on Franklin was insufficient to warrant a report despite the force being greater than all of Bakers punches to Johnson.
The AFL will help the Doggies as much as possible because Queen Julia throws money around like confetti.

[Bernard Shakey]

Everyone is being nice to the Dggies now that Queen Julia is PM.

The match review panel says Lake's stomach punch on Franklin was insufficient to warrant a report despite the force being greater than all of Bakers punches to Johnson.
The AFL will help the Doggies as much as possible because Queen Julia throws money around like confetti.

She must be the Queen of Hearts, obviously not Aces?

[westy]

And the Dogs have Knackermanis

[Duggie]

Not the way I read (heard) what they said.
My immediate reaction was to recall the saying that " a champion team will always beat a team of champions". What they said may be true and will be confirmed or denied in September or maybe earlier.
So if you need a more direct translation I believe our 22 onfield is better than theirs with all their statistics.
And finally, there is a measurable difference in the quality of the two coaches.