is lynch ready for our seniors

[saintsRrising]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

I agree.

I think one only has to look at Lyon's record to see he is all about "building a team"...

* Grabbed two ruckman in King and Gardi when we had no true AFL level ruckman


* Got Zac asa back FB..or forward

*Grabbed schneider for an extra small forward and to add forward pressure

*grabbed Ray (at drain's suggestion) for another rnning sweeper

* turn CJ into an offensive tagger..

* has played Gram more in the midfield to add pace and run to that group..


but Lyon is also all about reawarding effort...and in playing those that are doing the TEAM job... and not just playing players based on reputation or because they are low draft picks. for eaxmplaea lot of rookies have been given chance at senior level( Attard, CJ, Geary, Eddy, Zac)



I think too that Lyon's playing of both Raph and Gwilt are clear examples of Lyon wanting to build a team with players in ceratain roles.
raph has been tried several times in the HB sweeper role where he can excell..and did in the finals last year. Unfortunately in 2009 he has not been able to show that form.


Gwilt has been tried in that medium forward role that we need to complete our team...has showed glimpses that he could do the role...but has also at time had little impact there.

[LTN16]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

So who would you drop then ?

As RL has said:
"You don’t have to be playing AFL seniors to be developing. If anything, you can expose young bodies to significant injury before they are physically ready to play. Let’s understand that AFL footy is a brutal industry, and you want to be physically and mentally right to come in"
I agree 100% with Ross.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

Although I wouldn't say I "hate" it, I agree as well. Bad habits can clearly creep in even when you're winning (especially if guys become complacent, because they think they'll continue to get a game, even if they don't play their best) and it's ludicrous to wait until you start actually losing before making changes (if some guys have dropped off).
I'd much rather they went by whether we're playing to our full potential, rather than just the win/loss ratio. I love footy and the Saints and would much rather see them playing to their full potential, with passion for 4 quarters a week, than just doing the bare minimum to scrape by for a win each week. That's much more boring and lacking guts.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

So who would you drop then ?

How about the bloke that started the year really well but has dropped off big time in the last 2-3 weeks and only had 6 possies last week? Gwilt was playing much better than than before he was "dropped".

[|Andy|]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

So who would you drop then ?

As RL has said:
"You don’t have to be playing AFL seniors to be developing. If anything, you can expose young bodies to significant injury before they are physically ready to play. Let’s understand that AFL footy is a brutal industry, and you want to be physically and mentally right to come in"
I agree 100% with Ross.

Imagine if Steve Jobs hadn't kept innovating and recreating the ipod, because "it wasn't broken" and it did its job. What if Bill Gates hadn't created Windows XP because everyone was content with using Windows 98. The best people are proactive and continually seek the better of themselves, as should our team. Who cares if we are still winning, because everyone agrees that our past 5 weeks have not been as convincing as the first 7 rounds. If we can improve the team, then improve it. If you want someone to drop, lets drop Dawson now, because it'll be much easier to drop him now then come finals time when we're too top heavy with Hudgton in. Geelong had the guts to do it between King and Blake in the 07 grandfinal, even though they both were playing well.

[Goose is king]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

[plugger66]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

[|Andy|]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

READ! Before you comment... some people are so hopeless..

[BigMart]

If a player is ready to play it does not matter whether he is 15 or 22.....age is irrelevent....do not agree with Ross that a player does not have to develop in the AFL.....if they are ready they should develop where they are best suited.....

Judd, Selwood, Rioli, Murphy, Gibbs, Cooney, Griffen, Deledio, Zeibell and heaps of others have all slotted straight in.....great players rise with the level..

Dal Santo, Koschitzke, X.Clarke, Maguire, Ball, Riewoldt and Goddard all played VERY early and made an impact.....within 3 years that group was in a prelim...


BTW - Lynch is NOT a skinny kid!!!!!!

anyone who says that, have definitely not seen him close up.....if anything he needs to trim down a bit through the middle (like Armo did initially)

[LTN16]

If it's not broken don't fix it !!

NO.

I hate this statement...you continually try to improve your list and your 22.
Why would you continually play one who is not producing just because your side is winning?
Should not reward players who don't deserve it, retention or promotion

So who would you drop then ?

As RL has said:
"You don’t have to be playing AFL seniors to be developing. If anything, you can expose young bodies to significant injury before they are physically ready to play. Let’s understand that AFL footy is a brutal industry, and you want to be physically and mentally right to come in"
I agree 100% with Ross.

Imagine if Steve Jobs hadn't kept innovating and recreating the ipod, because "it wasn't broken" and it did its job. What if Bill Gates hadn't created Windows XP because everyone was content with using Windows 98. The best people are proactive and continually seek the better of themselves, as should our team. Who cares if we are still winning, because everyone agrees that our past 5 weeks have not been as convincing as the first 7 rounds. If we can improve the team, then improve it. If you want someone to drop, lets drop Dawson now, because it'll be much easier to drop him now then come finals time when we're too top heavy with Hudgton in. Geelong had the guts to do it between King and Blake in the 07 grandfinal, even though they both were playing well.

Good Point

[maverick]

If a player is ready to play it does not matter whether he is 15 or 22.....age is irrelevent....do not agree with Ross that a player does not have to develop in the AFL.....if they are ready they should develop where they are best suited.....

Judd, Selwood, Rioli, Murphy, Gibbs, Cooney, Griffen, Deledio, Zeibell and heaps of others have all slotted straight in.....great players rise with the level..

Dal Santo, Koschitzke, X.Clarke, Maguire, Ball, Riewoldt and Goddard all played VERY early and made an impact.....within 3 years that group was in a prelim...


BTW - Lynch is NOT a skinny kid!!!!!!

anyone who says that, have definitely not seen him close up.....if anything he needs to trim down a bit through the middle (like Armo did initially)

So I take it he's ready then

I remember a redhead teenage key forward making his debut in a final nearly 20 years ago, he turned out allright....

[bobmurray]

McEvoy is getting a try-out ATM in case one of King or Gardi are injured in the final series.

Not correct..

McEvoy is playing at the moment due to Gardiner and King having got themselves suspended through a lack of discipline..Ross Lyon's game plan requires 2 ruckmen and Ben is next in line....

[Moods]

If a player is ready to play it does not matter whether he is 15 or 22.....age is irrelevent....do not agree with Ross that a player does not have to develop in the AFL.....if they are ready they should develop where they are best suited.....

Judd, Selwood, Rioli, Murphy, Gibbs, Cooney, Griffen, Deledio, Zeibell and heaps of others have all slotted straight in.....great players rise with the level..

Dal Santo, Koschitzke, X.Clarke, Maguire, Ball, Riewoldt and Goddard all played VERY early and made an impact.....within 3 years that group was in a prelim...


BTW - Lynch is NOT a skinny kid!!!!!!

anyone who says that, have definitely not seen him close up.....if anything he needs to trim down a bit through the middle (like Armo did initially)

Don't agree at all. Almost every non saints player you mentioned is a midfielder. Saints had no choice but to throw their kids to the wolves. Let's face it. We were hopeless when these guys made their debut. Kosi, Ball, and X Clarke have all been riddled by injury after their initial couple of years. Would they have benefited by playing a couple of years in the VFL prior to making their debut or playing regularly in AFL. I reckon yes. Different situation though, b/c saints were in a different position. Whether playing them early benefited them long term is debateable. POssibly wouldn't have made any difference, and they would have been injured in the VFL anyway, who knows.

Personally I reckon the ideal model for kids is to strengthen them up, let them do an apprenticeship, so to speak, and then set them onto the field. There is always exceptions, Selwood being the most recent notable one.

A position that Lynch will occupy will require considerable strength. Unless he's really exceptional (which I admit I don't know but the consensus appears to be that he is not) then give him time to develope. Obviously if he displays unbelievable form, then promote him, but don't just promote him just b/c he's an early draft pick showing some promise. Hopefully we'll get 10 yrs plus out of him - I reckon give him a chance to grow into a body that can play 10 yrs, and give him a chance to learn a very difficult position in a lesser standard.

[plugger66]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

Sorry I didnt realise you wanted to drop Dawson. That is even worse than not having anyone to drop. Why would even think about dropping him

[sasaint]

There is a bloke named Jarryd Alen that was pretty good up forward too. As soon as he comes back from injury he may also have a claim on a spot up forward.

[Solar]

If a player is ready to play it does not matter whether he is 15 or 22.....age is irrelevent....do not agree with Ross that a player does not have to develop in the AFL.....if they are ready they should develop where they are best suited.....

Judd, Selwood, Rioli, Murphy, Gibbs, Cooney, Griffen, Deledio, Zeibell and heaps of others have all slotted straight in.....great players rise with the level..

Dal Santo, Koschitzke, X.Clarke, Maguire, Ball, Riewoldt and Goddard all played VERY early and made an impact.....within 3 years that group was in a prelim...


BTW - Lynch is NOT a skinny kid!!!!!!

anyone who says that, have definitely not seen him close up.....if anything he needs to trim down a bit through the middle (like Armo did initially)

Don't agree at all. Almost every non saints player you mentioned is a midfielder. Saints had no choice but to throw their kids to the wolves. Let's face it. We were hopeless when these guys made their debut. Kosi, Ball, and X Clarke have all been riddled by injury after their initial couple of years. Would they have benefited by playing a couple of years in the VFL prior to making their debut or playing regularly in AFL. I reckon yes. Different situation though, b/c saints were in a different position. Whether playing them early benefited them long term is debateable. POssibly wouldn't have made any difference, and they would have been injured in the VFL anyway, who knows.

Personally I reckon the ideal model for kids is to strengthen them up, let them do an apprenticeship, so to speak, and then set them onto the field. There is always exceptions, Selwood being the most recent notable one.

A position that Lynch will occupy will require considerable strength. Unless he's really exceptional (which I admit I don't know but the consensus appears to be that he is not) then give him time to develope. Obviously if he displays unbelievable form, then promote him, but don't just promote him just b/c he's an early draft pick showing some promise. Hopefully we'll get 10 yrs plus out of him - I reckon give him a chance to grow into a body that can play 10 yrs, and give him a chance to learn a very difficult position in a lesser standard.

the interesting part about lynch is he COULD play midfield as well as forward. So I would suggest we will develop him into a chapman type position (not suggesting as strong). The ability to mark well overhead but also work into traffic. This is where the half forward role is going.

I think structure wise we actually look better with a third tall. Right now blake seems to not have a position and I would look at gving lynch a game for him to see if he can't improve on gwilts position.

[bergholt]

I remember a redhead teenage key forward making his debut in a final nearly 20 years ago, he turned out allright....

i remember a 20 year old key forward playing his fourth game in a final last year. didn't turn out so well for jarryd allen, though.

[saintbrat]

Lynch update- Greg Hutchison Sat 27- in The Age Sports Page 4 Sunday 28th June

"He's been OK, but I'd think he's going to need several more displays in the VFL. Theres a lot of things that Tom needs to work on; he needs to work on how he presentshimself in games and his work rate and his effort and all of that,"

he goes on to mention that with a couple of strong forwards doing Ok in the AFL it's hard to break in.

[HarveysDeciple]

After watching him in the VFL quite a few times and seeing him gather 21 possies, 11 marks and 3 goals yesterday I think he could certainly come in and make an impact and looks like he will be a very good footballer long term.

Reality is though it's hard to break into the St.Kilda side and will have to be patient and wait for an "opportunity".

If Geary gets dropped soon (is out of form) then armo is the logical replacement, like for like, wouldn't drop a runner for a KPP. Armo is BOG yesterday.

[saintsRrising]

If a player is ready to play it does not matter whether he is 15 or 22.....age is irrelevent....do not agree with Ross that a player does not have to develop in the AFL.....if they are ready they should develop where they are best suited.....

Judd, Selwood, Rioli, Murphy, Gibbs, Cooney, Griffen, Deledio, Zeibell and heaps of others have all slotted straight in.....great players rise with the level..

Dal Santo, Koschitzke, X.Clarke, Maguire, Ball, Riewoldt and Goddard all played VERY early and made an impact.....within 3 years that group was in a prelim...


BTW - Lynch is NOT a skinny kid!!!!!!

anyone who says that, have definitely not seen him close up.....if anything he needs to trim down a bit through the middle (like Armo did initially)

Not really a very fair comparison as most of the named players were very low draft picks and clearly exceptional players before being drafted. Lynch is neither.

A big chunk of those players also played a lot of early football because that they were at struggling teams looking to "blood" their kids.

Lynch from memory was taken as a player to be developed into a footballer....and the Saints are at the height of our powers at present...with selection clearly being about this years finals rather than the future.

So for me it is pretty obvious that trying Gwilt as a HFF has more upside for this year finals that Lynch in the first half of this year. Lynch now has had half a season of experience...anda lot of gym-work to build his body...and so with Gwilt only be ok-ish at HFF Lynch may get a trial post the Cats game.

Lynch has had some very good games in the VFL this year...but has also had some shockers.

[BigMart]

Lynch was not a low Draft pick?????

I was sure he was our First Round Pick last season?????
#13 - Tom Lynch, Sandringham Dragons 192cm, 85kg

and I am very sure Maguire, Riewoldt, Kosi and BJ were not midfielders early on......

Size wise.......Lynch is similar to S.Johnson, J.Riewoldt, T.Walker, B.Fisher, J.Anthony, M.Bate, M.O'Loughlin

Kosi was 196, 82 in his first season
Riewoldt 193, 81
Maguire 190, 88
Gilbert 194, 84
Allen 193, 87
Goddard 188, 81
Hudghton 191, 86
S.Fisher 191, 88

Lynch has a jigher BMI than most of those....

He might not be ready......but physical size is not the issue...niether is footy smarts, physicality, abilty
Workrate, fitness, disposal are still in progress.....

[|Andy|]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

Sorry I didnt realise you wanted to drop Dawson. That is even worse than not having anyone to drop. Why would even think about dropping him

Because come finals time we're going to have to drop either him or Hudgton. You take your pick..Hudgton has finals experience, Dawson doesn't. Geelong didn't go into 2007 with 3 ruckman, they went in with 2. We shouldn't go in with 3 immobile tall defenders, we only need 2 and bring in that 3rd tall forward, or small defender.

I don't know whether you watch footy, but you'd have realised that we dropped off when Hudgton came in after round 7, and we played better when Hudgton went off due to injury today. Hence further strengthening, mine and half of saintsational's argument that we only need 2 immobile tall defenders.

BESIDES, the point of my reply before about the Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates thing was to point out the OBVIOUS flaw in the statement "If it's not broken, don't fix it", because it obviously doesn't work with our current society who strive to continuely improve.

Plugger66.. "Why would even think about dropping him". Don't you mean, Why would YOU even think about dropping him? Well the answer is simple really.. If you weren't so thick minded, you realise that it is to get our structure right, thus going back to round 1-7 where we had a great backline, and we obviously played much better. So I would drop him because: For structure, We have a similar and i daresay better player in Hudgton, though Dawson is getting better, AND Hudgton has finals experience which will benefit St Kilda immensely come finals time.

See, unlike you, I want St Kilda to continuely improve, and to possibly win the Cup. In order to do that, we need to improve the whole team, which starts with the BASICS - i.e. getting the STRUCTURE CORRECT!..

And next time please stop trying to create an argument when you clearly have nothing to backup your own so-called "arguments" and only write one sentence statements that you think everyone will accept and agree with.

[plugger66]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

Sorry I didnt realise you wanted to drop Dawson. That is even worse than not having anyone to drop. Why would even think about dropping him

Because come finals time we're going to have to drop either him or Hudgton. You take your pick..Hudgton has finals experience, Dawson doesn't. Geelong didn't go into 2007 with 3 ruckman, they went in with 2. We shouldn't go in with 3 immobile tall defenders, we only need 2 and bring in that 3rd tall forward, or small defender.

I don't know whether you watch footy, but you'd have realised that we dropped off when Hudgton came in after round 7, and we played better when Hudgton went off due to injury today. Hence further strengthening, mine and half of saintsational's argument that we only need 2 immobile tall defenders.

BESIDES, the point of my reply before about the Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates thing was to point out the OBVIOUS flaw in the statement "If it's not broken, don't fix it", because it obviously doesn't work with our current society who strive to continuely improve.

Plugger66.. "Why would even think about dropping him". Don't you mean, Why would YOU even think about dropping him? Well the answer is simple really.. If you weren't so thick minded, you realise that it is to get our structure right, thus going back to round 1-7 where we had a great backline, and we obviously played much better. So I would drop him because: For structure, We have a similar and i daresay better player in Hudgton, though Dawson is getting better, AND Hudgton has finals experience which will benefit St Kilda immensely come finals time.

See, unlike you, I want St Kilda to continuely improve, and to possibly win the Cup. In order to do that, we need to improve the whole team, which starts with the BASICS - i.e. getting the STRUCTURE CORRECT!..

And next time please stop trying to create an argument when you clearly have nothing to backup your own so-called "arguments" and only write one sentence statements that you think everyone will accept and agree with.

Writing a lot of words doesnt make the arguement better and attacking someone because he left out a word would mean your areguement is poor. I dont need any words to back up my arguement I just watch how Zac has been playing. It is that simple. So Andy you can write 5 para's I will just see Zac keep imprving every week and he is no where near getting dropped. I suggest instead of writing a lot of words you just watch how Zac has been plying.

[|Andy|]

That is brilliant Andy. Some here can't seem to get past the "if it aint broke dont fix it" theory. Anything that can be measured can be improved. I dont see why the Saints are any different.

Yep Andy was brilliant. Didnt come up with anyone to drop but just basically said lets drop someone.

Sorry I didnt realise you wanted to drop Dawson. That is even worse than not having anyone to drop. Why would even think about dropping him

Because come finals time we're going to have to drop either him or Hudgton. You take your pick..Hudgton has finals experience, Dawson doesn't. Geelong didn't go into 2007 with 3 ruckman, they went in with 2. We shouldn't go in with 3 immobile tall defenders, we only need 2 and bring in that 3rd tall forward, or small defender.

I don't know whether you watch footy, but you'd have realised that we dropped off when Hudgton came in after round 7, and we played better when Hudgton went off due to injury today. Hence further strengthening, mine and half of saintsational's argument that we only need 2 immobile tall defenders.

BESIDES, the point of my reply before about the Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates thing was to point out the OBVIOUS flaw in the statement "If it's not broken, don't fix it", because it obviously doesn't work with our current society who strive to continuely improve.

Plugger66.. "Why would even think about dropping him". Don't you mean, Why would YOU even think about dropping him? Well the answer is simple really.. If you weren't so thick minded, you realise that it is to get our structure right, thus going back to round 1-7 where we had a great backline, and we obviously played much better. So I would drop him because: For structure, We have a similar and i daresay better player in Hudgton, though Dawson is getting better, AND Hudgton has finals experience which will benefit St Kilda immensely come finals time.

See, unlike you, I want St Kilda to continuely improve, and to possibly win the Cup. In order to do that, we need to improve the whole team, which starts with the BASICS - i.e. getting the STRUCTURE CORRECT!..

And next time please stop trying to create an argument when you clearly have nothing to backup your own so-called "arguments" and only write one sentence statements that you think everyone will accept and agree with.

Writing a lot of words doesnt make the arguement better and attacking someone because he left out a word would mean your areguement is poor. I dont need any words to back up my arguement I just watch how Zac has been playing. It is that simple. So Andy you can write 5 para's I will just see Zac keep imprving every week and he is no where near getting dropped. I suggest instead of writing a lot of words you just watch how Zac has been plying.

Go watch Mark Blake's whole season in 2007 and then tell me why he got dropped on grand final day. When structure requires it, it'll happen. One of Dawson or Hudgton will make way in the finals. I'm not saying Zac is a bad player, in fact he's played great footy, way past our expectation, but having him and Hudgton doesn't make us a better football team, like how Bomber Thompson didn't bring Blake and King into the grandfinal team even though they were both starting 22.

Plugger. Do not attack someone for writing 5 paragraphs of common sense, when you can only write one paragraph of drizzle. I used to sit around and laugh at your arguments with other posters, but i can now see why everyone gets so frustrated with you.. You have no clue what you talk about! One player playing awesome doesn't make the team awesome. As Geelong enjoyed telling us all of last year, and Adelaide as well, Rather take a star team, then a team of stars. Think about that one and try to comprehend it before you write more drizzle about how your one sentences are suddenly correct.

[Solar]

disagree, I think we can fit both zac and max in the same side but that would squeeze blake out. Personally one of those goes for either a runner or third tall. lynch is in form.