IN: Raph OUT: Gram

[vacuous space]

... if [Gram] is in your first ten then geary, gwilt and mini are

That's BigFooty backwards voodoo logic. If Gram is in the first ten picked, then three players worse than him must be too.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

... if [Gram] is in your first ten then geary, gwilt and mini are

That's BigFooty backwards voodoo logic. If Gram is in the first ten picked, then three players worse than him must be too.

just displaying that those three have offered and performed much better than gram

don't put your voodoo crap on me please

[vacuous space]

just displaying that those three have offered and performed much better than gram

don't put your voodoo crap on me please

If those three are ahead, then why is Gram logging midfield minutes ahead of those three?

[Saints Premiers 2008]

just displaying that those three have offered and performed much better than gram

don't put your voodoo crap on me please

If those three are ahead, then why is Gram logging midfield minutes ahead of those three?

gwilt, mini and geary play different roles than gram...hence why he is logging in these midfield minutes

either the coaching staff want to give him time to prove himself (injured or otherwise) or we don't really have a ready made option yet (in their opinion - not ss's)...

[3rd generation saint]

Gram if fit would right now be an automatic selection. He has pace, he has dash and he is very effective at carrying the ball and a good goalkicker on the run from distance.
He will replace someone when fit, but not Raph if Raph picks up where he left off in last years finals.

[vacuous space]

gwilt, mini and geary play different roles than gram...

Geary and Mini are natural mids. They're among our most benched players. Gram is not. Gram's a starting midfielder in one of the best midfields in the comp. His role is a much bigger one than that of Geary, Gwilt or Mini.

You don't like his kicking. Fine. I don't like Brett Kirk's. Both of them are valuable players.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

gwilt, mini and geary play different roles than gram...

Geary and Mini are natural mids. They're among our most benched players. Gram is not. Gram's a starting midfielder in one of the best midfields in the comp. His role is a much bigger one than that of Geary, Gwilt or Mini.

You don't like his kicking. Fine. I don't like Brett Kirk's. Both of them are valuable players.

Kirk goes in and gets the pill, is a leader and is super at both

Gram runs and carries - great...when it comes kicking time its a lottery as to where its going to go

geary seems both an in and out player, mini is an inside player...

gram is an outside player...granted he gets alot of time in a good midfield but there is no real competition and everyone else is seemingly doing a good job...his role and importance should be much larger...so should his effect on games...however he doesn't perform

[vacuous space]

Gram runs and carries - great...when it comes kicking time its a lottery as to where its going to go

If that's the criticism, that's fine. He should be having more of an impact given the amount of I50s he's had. That said, it is a relatively new role for him and he's learning. He hasn't blazed away nearly as much the last two weeks. I'd still pick him before Geary, Gwilt or Mini.

[bergholt]

Miles is now the 3rd emergency!

this is a very interesting point, and gives us a good estimation of the order of the next few. emergencies so far this year:

8: mcevoy (1 game)
5: eddy (2)
4: begley (0)
3: armitage (0), miles (0)
2: r clarke (2)
1: x clarke (0)

mcevoy the only true tall in there so obviously he'll be emergency basically every week just in case there's a tall injury. but of rest after raph this week, eddy's obviously the top of the pile. then it's pretty tight between begley, armo, miles for the next spot.

which is really good because i thought miles was a fair was away still. i don't know what he's good for, but 185/78 sounds like an ok size for senior footy, if he's got pace.

[bergholt]

IMHO Gram - from a defensive aspect - is the weakest link in our side.

.... or our most damaging risk-taker and play-maker.

i know what you are saying, but they can't all be specialist lockdown artists and nor would you want them to be.

it takes all types ... negating and attacking ... and gram's been very important to us this season as the player who statistically has taken us inside 50 more than any other.

it's a question of balance between defence and attack and so far this season we've had it pretty much right.

good post, agreed.

[stkfc1]

Personally I think Grams been very up and down this season. On song

is fantastic but can make some poor decisions. His kicking has been

a big let down this year. I don't remember too many games where the

ball has left his boot going in a nice over end motion. Many seem to be

helicopters or floaters. You can have as many inside fifties as you like

but its also about quality of delivery not just quantity. I also wonder how

many missed goal attempts of his from outside 50 are classified as 50

entries if they are included then it becomes a BS statistic. He's had a few.

[Goose is king]

I believe this strengthens the side.
Raph is ready to shine and I think he will stay in the side all season if he doesn't get injured.

[Teflon]

Geezus there are some sensitive prima donnas on here...

"dont criticise Gram cause he can run fast and carry the ball"

So that means he doesnt need to lay an effective tackle....we just leave all the hard stuff to Lenny/Ball while Gram can continuosly let defenders simply swipe him away? (watch the games FFS).

Ofcourse all players have strengths/weaknesses that doesnt mean you ignore the poorer side - Im sure Ross Lyon didnt when he dropped Nick Dal Santo/Milne for no defensive sides to their games.

Gram ALWAYS looks good when we are on top (a lot this year) he is a receiver in a good side (no shame there thats what he is) but IMHO his foot skills have been ordinary this year, very ordinary under any pressure and when the side is under siege it aint Jason Gram dragging us out - its the likes of Hayes, Ball and even Goddard.

He needs to improve his defensive efforts cause I can guarantee you a Geelong mid will simply shrug him off and it cant ALL be left to Ball/Hayes FFS.

[SainterK]

Improvement to his kicking or otherwise, the inside 50 stat is an impressive one....

[Legendary]

Gram has played 8 matches in 2008, averaging 21 disposals, 2.6 tackles, 7 inside 50's and 0.6 goals per game.

As has been previously mentioned, he is #1 for Inside 50's in the AFL so far this season.

He is averaging 66% disposal efficiency from the 8 matches. Whilst this isn't great (75% is generally very good), it's certainly not the "disaster" that some people are making out.

He is one of our main ball carriers, along with Montagna, and is absolutely vital to the side.

[To the top]

I do not understand the critical comment on Gram.

He will be sorely missed tomorrow.

To attempt to compare him with McQualter and Eddy is folly.

And Gwilt plays a different game, whether back or forward.

R. Clarke will mature to a mid-field player but, currently, is not as damaging on goal as is Gram and does not get the distance Gram does, creating one on one contests close to goal and in the hot spot.

[saintsRrising]

One of the things we will need to beat the Cats and Hawks is pacey players who can break the lines.

Gram is one of onlya few such players at the Saints.

[saintly]

which game did Raph last play in? i thought it was his first game this year and yet someone has said it is his second. and if he did play pthis year before this game why was he dropped again?

[saint3d]

He played in round one and was dropped for tearing his hamstring.

[Teflon]

I do not understand the critical comment on Gram.

He will be sorely missed tomorrow.

To attempt to compare him with McQualter and Eddy is folly.

And Gwilt plays a different game, whether back or forward.

R. Clarke will mature to a mid-field player but, currently, is not as damaging on goal as is Gram and does not get the distance Gram does, creating one on one contests close to goal and in the hot spot.

To suggest that Gram has therefore no aspects to his game that warrants criticism is absurd.

Grams defensive efforts are ordinary - watch the games, watch the tackles.....he is 'air' brushed off FFS and struglles to spoil.
Im talking 1 on 1 here - no ones asking him to be Hudgton but just do a job.

IMHO if you are employing a defensive strategy you'd want to ensure EVERYONE's defensive efforts are up to scracth - Grams on numeorus occasions Ive observed are not.

No questioning his importance of run and carry to the side but IMHO his defensive abilities let his all round game down enormously.

As for 'run and carry stats' - Ive been at enough games to know the many times Grams also sprayed a half mongrel punt off the side of the boot this year - his disposal this year and part of last has struggled more than normal. I have a feeling hes said this himself.

[Mr Magic]

Can anybody see Geary taking over the Gram role in tomorrow's game?

Run and carry.

Break the lines.

He seems to ahve a similar pace to Gram but without quite getting the same depth in his kicking.

On the other hand he seems to be playing with a better defensive side to his game than Gram this year.

[Teflon]

Can anybody see Geary taking over the Gram role in tomorrow's game?

Run and carry.

Break the lines.

He seems to ahve a similar pace to Gram but without quite getting the same depth in his kicking.

On the other hand he seems to be playing with a better defensive side to his game than Gram this year.

Thats a great point Magic and while Geary wont do this role as accomplished now.......Im tipping this kid in future will.

Im not bagging Gram - his goals from 50 are a great lift to the side.....I just see a player who has a whole side to his game that needs to improve especially IF he wants to be a genuine mid to challenge the Joel Coreys et al.

Its not about bagging players - to me its about where can we get better to genuinely knock over a very cocky Geelong.

[Solar]

which game did Raph last play in? i thought it was his first game this year and yet someone has said it is his second. and if he did play pthis year before this game why was he dropped again?

was the reason we got back into the game in round one after sydney came out of the blocks. will be very good to have his rn and carry as well as height. He gives our backline a little bit more flexibility.

gram will be miss but seemed to really struggle. I thought he was really improving as a midfielder in his first real season as a mid. His balance is lovely and was starting to lower his vision.

[Shaggy]

When we were down against Swans Imo Raph was our best player. The only players to tackle the ball and the player in the first quarter were Raph, Chips and Gilbert.

Since than we have obviously improved heaps.

But Raph did lead the way when we were down this year

[hAyES]

Gram is a very valuable player to us, but what he needs to stop doing is trying to bomb it long. When he kicks it within 30-45 metres he's a beautiful kick, but when he tries to kick it too long who knows where it will end up. He's very important as the link up player and he's a goal kicker as well. If Raph plays well then unfortunately it might be Geary that has to go make way for Gram, even though he wouldn't deserve it.