Do we need to extend Lyons contract now?

[Teflon]

At 57 he’ll coach into his 60s

He’ll be the longest serving coach without a flag in history!

Rebuild

Doesn’t work…

You just continually build!

Sydney has rebuilt since 95
Geelong since 2003
Richmond since 2012

Teams the have, had absolutely no guarantee of success

Really?
Why haven’t those sides bottomed out???
Let’s see …..sone handy father son acquisitions???
Whose had an academy that’s been untouchable for years ???
We aren’t so lucky as a boutique club
Think you’ll find out last bottom out / rebuild yielded our best success in decades
Topping up has certainly failed …
Either way I think you’re saying what I’m saying
Ross needs more time

I agree about our last bottom-out period was our most successful. However, the flipside of that is the bottom out that Carlton engineered (not the salary cap cheating era - after that). That set their club back at least a decade. You can't go all scorched earth - that doesn't work at all.

Actually you can go all scorched earth if you are lucky with who you draft.
Look at Melbourne their premiership was completely based on high draft picks and being a basket case for a significant period of time.
What doesn't work is floating around the middle of the pack when you aren't the desirable destination for all free agents.

This is the REAL discussion that needs to be had
We aren’t a destination club
We’ve sat mid-table mediocre for 10 years - the WORST place to be
I’m not sure we can risk topping up to just “be consistent “ and survive to be honest
I don’t see any other choice than taking a step back next 2 years to go forward
This senior core are pedestrian - have been Richoe’d and Rattenfied…nice guys …no resilience when a side stands up to them …no leader who says “stuff this…I’ll show the way” (aka Hayes)
Draft it is and RTB knows it

[samoht]

We do need to go to the draft to improve our midfield further, but we are strong in other areas ...
vs Carlton, all Crouch and Steele needed to do was to get their 6-10 usual possessions each in the last quarter.

0 possessions each???

Is that what they were delivering under "cuddly" Ratten (Steele was injured of course, for a major part of last year).

Steele was never a soft player (or was Crouch for that matter).

Something is NQR, and I wouldn't be rushing to sign "the great man" and his game plan which allows opposition half backs to take their games to new levels.

[Teflon]

We do need to go to the draft to improve our midfield further, but we are strong in other areas ...
vs Carlton, all Crouch and Steele needed to do was to get their 6-10 usual possessions each in the last quarter.

0 possessions each???

Is that what they were delivering under "cuddly" Ratten (Steele was injured of course, for a major part of last year).

Steele was never a soft player (or was Crouch for that matter).

Something is NQR, and I wouldn't be rushing to sign "the great man" and his game plan which allows opposition half backs to take their games to new levels.

Again that’s rubbish sorry
Crouch was tagged by Hewett - he was killing them but had no help
Steele had 11 for the entire game - deplorable from a so-called leader …who can sook it up it must be said..
I don’t think Carlton’s HB in Saad cut us up at all???
Not do I think Sicily did last week ?????
Again not defending Lyon but put the blame where it lies ffs
Stop reaching for the lazy conclusions
No wonder we are mediocre

[samoht]

Weitering took 10 marks and controlled the air, and they were missing McGovern.

When we needed Steele and Crouch to stand up, in an important 8 point game, they "crouched" in the last quarter.
Zero possessions from both. That's unprecedented.

More a case of being Rossified ... or ossified to the spot.

Something is NQR.

ossified
adjective

having become rigid or fixed in attitude or position.
"an ossified institution"

[Teflon]

Weitering took 10 marks and controlled the air, and they were missing McGovern.

When we needed Steele and Crouch to stand up, in an important 8 point game, they "crouched" in the last quarter.
Zero possessions from both. That's unprecedented.

More a case of being Rossified ... or ossified to the spot.

Something is NQR.

We lost the game in the midfield- anyone with half a brain knows it wasnt cause of Weigeribg

Suggest you read below to get sone perspective from Saibtmatt:




Saintmatt wrote: ↑
FFS ppl on here make this so complicated. Nothing at all changed at half time in the coaches box. A shite missed free kick cost us momentum going into half time with a 5 goal lead. Carlton were dead and buried at that point.

During that first half - the only coaching move that I could discernibly notice was Jack Steele hard marking Cripps (and largely sacrificing his game in the process). He did a good job of that. That's it. We were not pushing an extra up to the stoppages from half back / half forward; the wings (Hill / Wood) were maintaining their width and playing box to box. That's it. At that stage, Crouch had bought his own Sherrin and had 22 disposals.

After half time? Same from the coaches box. The difference? The main thing was that they stopped fumbling everything; Cripps slowly got on top as did Hewitt/ Docherty - they won stoppages and that let the likes of Acres to get off the chain and run rampant.

I like the idea of Lyon and think he'll be ok for us in time. But he can't really polish this turd of a list. He simply cannot help it if Steele and Crouch had zero touches in the last quarter. That's on those Senior players. They weren't on the bench; they attended every centre bounce - ample opportunity to impact the result.

I really just think that our group of players got beaten by a more talented group of players. Voss didn't do anything either FWIW. Cripps > Steele; DeKoning as 2nd ruck > Hammer; Marshall = Pittonet.

My abiding thought walking out of the ground was that it was mainly our kids that had done the damage for us this year and collectively, that was probably their quietest game. NAS, Owens, Windy, Byrnes, Phillipou, Cammo , Sharman were all outpointed by their direct opponents.

The indictment is that the Senior players should have stood up and simply didn't. You can't leave it to the kids all the time and that's not necessarily the coach's direct fault

[samoht]

Still, Crouch and Steele getting zero possessions in the last quarter.
And why was Owens moved out of the centre when he was doing well?

We have more depth now with Owens, NWM and Windhager maturing - and even with Byrnes benefitting from another pre-season.
Our injury list is shrinking.

Stocker has also done well, but RL doesn't like him?

We definitely have more depth than last year, and we're better placed injury-wise.

This "turd of a list" has "more polish" than last year.

We should win the next two games at Marvel - hopefully that's what happens.

[The G Train Legacy]

I was surprised that he didn't get 5 from the get go. However, I think if he wanted 5 he would have got 5. So I think there was some agreement from Ross on the 4.

Don't know if we should extend, but if possible they should remove the 6 month notice clause required by the AFL. That would show a commitment to 4 years and stability.

I think Lyon took the 4 year deal, because he feels he can get it done in 4 years. He wants a Premiership almost as bad as we long suffering supporters do. Don't believe his spin at the time about not knowing the List excepting that they could run. Once he considered the job, he would've studied our List and known what he was getting into.

We don't need a rebuild, we need to build a good midfield. Owens, Phillipou and Windhager will end up there, they need games and preseasons. Max King is still nowhere near his peak. We've got an exciting batch of kids. Its not that bad, we're not that far away.

[The G Train Legacy]

Still, Crouch and Steele getting zero possessions in the last quarter.
And why was Owens moved out of the centre when he was doing well?

We have more depth now with Owens, NWM and Windhager maturing - and even with Byrnes benefitting from another pre-season.
Our injury list is shrinking.

Stocker has also done well, but RL doesn't like him?

We definitely have more depth than last year, and we're better placed injury-wise.

We should win the next two games at Marvel - hopefully that's what happens.

Owens out of the centre was more about putting Sinclair into the centre.

[samoht]

Owens out of the centre was more about putting Sinclair into the centre.

And what was Steele and Crouch getting zero possessions in the last quarter about?

Are we going to blame previous coaches for that?

[Teflon]

Still, Crouch and Steele getting zero possessions in the last quarter.
And why was Owens moved out of the centre when he was doing well?

We have more depth now with Owens, NWM and Windhager maturing - and even with Byrnes benefitting from another pre-season.
Our injury list is shrinking.

Stocker has also done well, but RL doesn't like him?

We definitely have more depth than last year, and we're better placed injury-wise.

This "turd of a list" has "more polish" than last year.

We should win the next two games at Marvel - hopefully that's what happens.

So again ….
Crouch and Steele get zero touches and it’s coaching fault??
You think the coach instructed them not to touch the ball last qtr?
Owens (who’d been ok but not match winner) is your answer ??
How many games has Membrey and King played in sane side this year compared to last year …while you’re telling us how good our injuries have been??
DMac ?
Jones ??
Actually throw in Howard now??
I think you’re looking for excuses and avoiding real issues

[Teflon]

Still, Crouch and Steele getting zero possessions in the last quarter.
And why was Owens moved out of the centre when he was doing well?

We have more depth now with Owens, NWM and Windhager maturing - and even with Byrnes benefitting from another pre-season.
Our injury list is shrinking.

Stocker has also done well, but RL doesn't like him?

We definitely have more depth than last year, and we're better placed injury-wise.

We should win the next two games at Marvel - hopefully that's what happens.

Owens out of the centre was more about putting Sinclair into the centre.

Thanks

[Teflon]

Owens out of the centre was more about putting Sinclair into the centre.

And what was Steele and Crouch getting zero possessions in the last quarter about?

Are we going to blame previous coaches for that?

Why does it have anything to do with coaches at all?
Why are you afraid to put the blame where it lies??
Cripps was held early ….stepped up ….why couldn’t our captain??
Let me guess ….Ross upset at HT?
Soft.

[samoht]

So, the man of Steele is soft and Crouch is soft, and the senior core have been Richoe’d and Rattenfied and become nice, soft cuddly guys, with no resilience when a side stands up to them …no leader who says “stuff this, I’ll show the way."

It's all the past coaches' fault.

You're happy to blame past coaches ... for Steele's and Crouch's lack of resilience and their zero possession last quarter.
Steele and Crouch have been rendered soft?

The great coach has little to work with and shouldn't be called into question?
2nd year players NWM, Owens and Windhager haven't matured and haven't added anything?
Together with Stocker, they haven't improved our depth?

It's time to clean the slate, get rid of all the soft rubbish (which includes our core - Steele, Wilkie, etc..), and start again?

Reality is, RL has more to work with than Ratten did, especially the second half of this year compared to last year (given the wholesale injuries).

[repta]

Is he really up for it?

He is leaving much of the coaching to his Assistants. He stated in a recent interview he is watching the training from the balcony.
I think it was WIlkie that said to him that he needs to be harder on the players. Call them to account more often.

Is he really that invested in the job. There is definately shades of Malcolm in some of his mannerisms.
Rebuilds cant be done from the sidelines.

[thejiggingsaint]

Generally when a coach has a contract extension it (generally) provides an indication that the club has reasonable grounds for believing that some progress has been made.
In fairness to Ratten he DID get us into finals for the first time in a decade, then went backwards at a rate of knots! which makes the decision to give him a contract extension appear less than smart. To then sack him (and pay out that contract) makes even LESS sense! But of course we ARE talking about the St. Kilda Footy Club!

Now while prepared to give support to Ross and his coaching staff, I'm not totally convinced that (based on results this season) a "contract extension" (after 20 games) is justified. Yes, give the guy the period of his CURRENT contract to show improvement, but based on the fact that we are in precisely the same "win-loss" position that we were under a (perceived) "failed coach" last season, I would respectfully suggest that we hold fire on talk of contract extensions.

[Scollop]

Weitering took 10 marks and controlled the air, and they were missing McGovern.

When we needed Steele and Crouch to stand up, in an important 8 point game, they "crouched" in the last quarter.
Zero possessions from both. That's unprecedented.

More a case of being Rossified ... or ossified to the spot.

Something is NQR.

We lost the game in the midfield- anyone with half a brain knows it wasnt cause of Weigeribg

Suggest you read below to get sone perspective from Saibtmatt:




Saintmatt wrote: ↑
FFS ppl on here make this so complicated. Nothing at all changed at half time in the coaches box. A shite missed free kick cost us momentum going into half time with a 5 goal lead. Carlton were dead and buried at that point.

During that first half - the only coaching move that I could discernibly notice was Jack Steele hard marking Cripps (and largely sacrificing his game in the process). He did a good job of that. That's it. We were not pushing an extra up to the stoppages from half back / half forward; the wings (Hill / Wood) were maintaining their width and playing box to box. That's it. At that stage, Crouch had bought his own Sherrin and had 22 disposals.

After half time? Same from the coaches box. The difference? The main thing was that they stopped fumbling everything; Cripps slowly got on top as did Hewitt/ Docherty - they won stoppages and that let the likes of Acres to get off the chain and run rampant.

I like the idea of Lyon and think he'll be ok for us in time. But he can't really polish this turd of a list. He simply cannot help it if Steele and Crouch had zero touches in the last quarter. That's on those Senior players. They weren't on the bench; they attended every centre bounce - ample opportunity to impact the result.

I really just think that our group of players got beaten by a more talented group of players. Voss didn't do anything either FWIW. Cripps > Steele; DeKoning as 2nd ruck > Hammer; Marshall = Pittonet.

My abiding thought walking out of the ground was that it was mainly our kids that had done the damage for us this year and collectively, that was probably their quietest game. NAS, Owens, Windy, Byrnes, Phillipou, Cammo , Sharman were all outpointed by their direct opponents.

The indictment is that the Senior players should have stood up and simply didn't. You can't leave it to the kids all the time and that's not necessarily the coach's direct fault

Some great observations from Saintmatt. Thanks for reposting

In other threads Teff you've stated Steele wasn't tagging. Make up your mind. Do you agree with Saintmatt or not?

Also: I agree with what Saintmatt says about some of our youngsters. I emphasise the word some because not all were beaten by their opponents.

Saintmatt goes and undoes all his good thoughts however, by branding the whole list a turd. There could be a reason some players were cooked in the last quarter and it may have something to do with how many minutes they spent on the ground in the first 3.

Another thing I'll add (wrong thread but doesn't matter) is how ineffective some of the tackling was by our second string mids in Clark, Byrnes and Gresham and a few others (Sharman and Pou) around the ground. Not that it mattered because Carlton could throw the footy with one hand and it was still called play on

[skeptic]

Is he really that invested in the job. There is definately shades of Malcolm in some of his mannerisms.
Rebuilds cant be done from the sidelines.

I get the point you’re making and have no insight as to what you do or don’t know RE the Malcolm Blight era. What I will say is that from the insiders of the time, there is categorically no parallel or shades with Blight’s short lived reign. Read into that what you will.

[Saint2]

Still, Crouch and Steele getting zero possessions in the last quarter.
And why was Owens moved out of the centre when he was doing well?

We have more depth now with Owens, NWM and Windhager maturing - and even with Byrnes benefitting from another pre-season.
Our injury list is shrinking.

Stocker has also done well, but RL doesn't like him?

We definitely have more depth than last year, and we're better placed injury-wise.

This "turd of a list" has "more polish" than last year.

We should win the next two games at Marvel - hopefully that's what happens.

So again ….
Crouch and Steele get zero touches and it’s coaching fault??
You think the coach instructed them not to touch the ball last qtr?
Owens (who’d been ok but not match winner) is your answer ??
How many games has Membrey and King played in sane side this year compared to last year …while you’re telling us how good our injuries have been??
DMac ?
Jones ??
Actually throw in Howard now??
I think you’re looking for excuses and avoiding real issues

It's about how the players are being used, but some of it is down to players too

[B.M]

Teflon

Why is was it Ratten’s fault when we lost in his reign

But it’s the players fault now?!

It’s a clear contradiction

I don’t get it

Btw
The so called leader has finished on the podium in the B&F 6 times and won 2 has finished top 3 in the Brownlow twice
All Australian twice
Averages 7+ tackles probably the best two way mid since Lenny Hayes at StK
To suggest he is no good is embarrassing

He had a poor game - he’s had 100 good ones

[Vortex]

Teflon

Why is was it Ratten’s fault when we lost in his reign

But it’s the players fault now?!

It’s a clear contradiction

I don’t get it

Btw
The so called leader has finished on the podium in the B&F 6 times and won 2 has finished top 3 in the Brownlow twice
All Australian twice
Averages 7+ tackles probably the best two way mid since Lenny Hayes at StK
To suggest he is no good is embarrassing

He had a poor game - he’s had 100 good ones

I'm sensing the response will be similar the one you'd expect from a Christian when asked why God allows evil and horrible things to happen in the world...

"because God works in mysterious ways"

[Yorkeys]

No shame in losing to a more talented side. We know. However there was something of a dread realisation about that last quarter. Ross had no idea. Didn't see it coming, had nothing to minimise the Carlton waves in real time. Could not support the players with sandbagging tactics. His statement- no recriminations. More honest than an earlier line about unacceptability. Ross looks shot and an inflexible selection policy that has rewarded guys clocking off has roosted. Unfortunately a lot all clocked off at once. As I say this group of players wag the dog. Go hard when it suits and they know they can keep doing that. I feel a bit sorry for Ross because he is stuffed. Unless he does flick a lot of them. You can review till cows come home but that's the last battle. Reviews don't kick goals. I guess he will limp through next year. Is there a forceful charismatic person on the coaching panel that can turn the malaise around.

[Teflon]

So, the man of Steele is soft and Crouch is soft, and the senior core have been Richoe’d and Rattenfied and become nice, soft cuddly guys, with no resilience when a side stands up to them …no leader who says “stuff this, I’ll show the way."

It's all the past coaches' fault.

You're happy to blame past coaches ... for Steele's and Crouch's lack of resilience and their zero possession last quarter.
Steele and Crouch have been rendered soft?

The great coach has little to work with and shouldn't be called into question?
2nd year players NWM, Owens and Windhager haven't matured and haven't added anything?
Together with Stocker, they haven't improved our depth?

It's time to clean the slate, get rid of all the soft rubbish (which includes our core - Steele, Wilkie, etc..), and start again?

Reality is, RL has more to work with than Ratten did, especially the second half of this year compared to last year (given the wholesale injuries).

No no no
Your views /lack of ability to put the onus on the players to perform is soft
Sorry shoulda been clearer
Your excuse riddled nonsense letting players off the hook who have gone missing in ganes UNDER MULTIPLE coaches is soft
I’d never call anyone playing AFL soft
Still coaches fault they can’t get a kick??
**** I’ve heard it all now….

[Teflon]

Is he really up for it?

He is leaving much of the coaching to his Assistants. He stated in a recent interview he is watching the training from the balcony.
I think it was WIlkie that said to him that he needs to be harder on the players. Call them to account more often.

Is he really that invested in the job. There is definately shades of Malcolm in some of his mannerisms.
Rebuilds cant be done from the sidelines.

You get down to training to form that view???
I read - from those at the club - he’s on field instructing players, stopping training when drills aren’t delivered
In fact Wood just posted this week how Lyons standards are what’s driving player improvement
Did you make these views up from your balcony in Croydon?

[Teflon]

Teflon

Why is was it Ratten’s fault when we lost in his reign

But it’s the players fault now?!

It’s a clear contradiction

I don’t get it

Btw
The so called leader has finished on the podium in the B&F 6 times and won 2 has finished top 3 in the Brownlow twice
All Australian twice
Averages 7+ tackles probably the best two way mid since Lenny Hayes at StK
To suggest he is no good is embarrassing

He had a poor game - he’s had 100 good ones

I'm sensing the response will be similar the one you'd expect from a Christian when asked why God allows evil and horrible things to happen in the world...

"because God works in mysterious ways"

Is that the line you’ve been using to explain Sherman’s great season so far?
The lord does work in mysterious ways…
Coops to be extended in 2024 - you might pay that debt then???

[SaintPav]

Is he really that invested in the job. There is definately shades of Malcolm in some of his mannerisms.
Rebuilds cant be done from the sidelines.

I get the point you’re making and have no insight as to what you do or don’t know RE the Malcolm Blight era. What I will say is that from the insiders of the time, there is categorically no parallel or shades with Blight’s short lived reign. Read into that what you will.

Malcolm Blight?

FMD