Dougal Howard

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Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998351Post Sanctorum »

When looking at the current St Kilda best 23, when every player on the list is available, invariably we have Dougal Howard as the team's indisputable full-back.

My question is, does he deserve to hold that spot??

No doubt my view will be hotly disputed, but to me the only weakness in the best 23 team is in fact Dougal Howard at full-back.

For much of the second half of 2022, as well as in last Sunday's game against Fremantle, Dougal Howard has been really disappointing. In fact, to me he is the only weak link in the back 6 of our footy team.

We rarely see Howard win one-on-one contests against his opponent, nor does he ever much get the ball and run it out of defence the way Callum Wilkie does so well, and his kick-outs from the goal square are really really poor, either not finding his mark or bombing it to a contest downfield. This is confirmed by defenders other than Howard taking most of the kicks to restart play.

On the Saints website it mentions that he is "one of the game's foremost spoilers", no doubt in large prt due to his impressive 199 cm height. But spoiling a contested ball close to goals can also be a double-edged sword for a defender and can sometimes be swooped on by an opponent and slammed through for a goal....

At age 27 it is unlikely that Howard will improve his performance in the crucial key defensive role, and yet it is such a crucial position in the lineup.

My choice for a quick fix starting with Saturday's massive game against Footscray is to hand the full-back position to Zaine Cordy

Given he is one of the tallest players on the list, I am wondering if the selectors should work on converting Howard to become a ruckman as that is an area where the club certainly needs to develop support for Rowan Marshall, or if he lacks the mobility for that role, maybe key forward.

In one of the practice games James Van Es stood out as a very strong key defender, takking some nice grabs and good disposala, he could well be the 'full-back in waiting'.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998355Post B.M »

Gives too much latitude and gets beaten to easy for my liking


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998357Post CQ SAINT »

Van Es and Adams are waiting, Cordy is a makeshift KPD.

Howard is not as bad as it seems. The PTDS of the previous 2 coaching eras is still strong but Howard is contracted until 2024 and Cordy fills depth gaps.
With the General beside him doing the majority of the close checking and Battle reading the play very well, I think between the three of them and MarshalL things will be fine until either Adams or Van Es stake claims to a set of skills that will give us more options.

Dougal will just guard the centre of the 50 and follow the ball in, while Wilkie and Battle do the strong and disciplined stuff.

We can't fix every weakness at once. Dougal will get broken in the ruck, Caminiti looks more durable.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998373Post magnifisaint »

He keeps falling over. He's definitely no good on the ground. He also doesn't take many marks. He's also indecisive with the ball.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998374Post Ghost Like »

I like his desperation and I like his passion to defend. I think he knows what he's doing and is a good height, size and experience.

I do not like his disposal. He appears to be someone who thinks he's better at that craft than what he is. First option Dougal, no option?...then kick it 60 metres to a contest. Simples!


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998377Post Vortex »

I understand the conversation but the funny thing is our defence seems to have its house in order, one of the better performers in the comp even, and that was even before the Boss trotted into town.

Can you do that carrying a passenger in defence?

Not sure Doogs would go so well as a ruckman, probably same reason Coops couldn't...not strong enough and too easy to rag doll in 1 v 1.

Doog's one wood is the running fist.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998381Post Scollop »

Vortex wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 7:55pm I understand the conversation but the funny thing is our defence seems to have its house in order, one of the better performers in the comp even, and that was even before the Boss trotted into town.

Can you do that carrying a passenger in defence?

Not sure Doogs would go so well as a ruckman, probably same reason Coops couldn't...not strong enough and too easy to rag doll in 1 v 1.

Doog's one wood is the running fist.
+1. Dougs did his job against Freo. He is never going to be a scrap and hold and outmaneuver sort of full back

He'll take the odd intercept mark but not as prolific as Jake Carlisle. I remember Carlisle also wasn't very good in one on one contests.

Dougs is quicker than Carlisle and his closing speed means he gets to more contests.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998383Post spert »

For all of what we think are faults, he mostly beats his opponent.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998391Post SinCitySainter »

Howard is rarely beaten by his opponent. He has great closing speed which is why he is such a valuable defender. If we didn't have him defending we would be torn apart by the big forwards of the competition. Our defense for last few years has been our strength and he has been a key component of that.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998395Post skeptic »

I think he’s actually doing alright. It’s been tough for him the last few years since Carlisle left because the defence is a touch undersized and IMO Dougal seems to feel obligated to zone off a bit more to try and get to contests. If he misjudges or is overly optimistic, he tends to get caught out. Throw in the fact that our structures and mids have been a mess… it’s been tough.

Regardless however and despite some bad body language at times, I actually think he’s done ok. Seems to me that he beats his opponent more often than not and I gave him the points in the weekend too. Don’t remember him being beaten too often and that free kick against him looked pretty soft to me.

I respect the discussion but can’t say I agree at all with the OP


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998396Post WellardSaint »

CQ SAINT wrote: Wed 22 Mar 2023 5:51pm Van Es and Adams are waiting, Cordy is a makeshift KPD.

Howard is not as bad as it seems. The PTDS of the previous 2 coaching eras is still strong but Howard is contracted until 2024 and Cordy fills depth gaps.
With the General beside him doing the majority of the close checking and Battle reading the play very well, I think between the three of them and MarshalL things will be fine until either Adams or Van Es stake claims to a set of skills that will give us more options.

Dougal will just guard the centre of the 50 and follow the ball in, while Wilkie and Battle do the strong and disciplined stuff.

We can't fix every weakness at once. Dougal will get broken in the ruck, Caminiti looks more durable.
This post makes the most sense to me- well done.
Dougal might be the weakest link, but I trust Boris to keep the synergy of these guys going, until a better FB comes along, as you say.
Callum+Battle can cover for him


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998406Post The_Dud »

Should be better, has all the physical attributes.

Put Wilkie in Howard's body and you'd have the best defender in the game.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998410Post meher baba »

So many people watch our game and become overly preoccupied with players making the odd fumble or other mistake, rather than on things like how they play on their opponent, hold their position, create space for others, etc. One thing I particularly like about Lyon's approach is his strong focus on these more important indicators.

Like BM, I find myself a little bothered about how far away Howard often likes to stand from his opponent. But, if it were a real problem for the team, surely Enright and now Lyon would be working to fix it. But it can't be that much of a problem as our defence has been the strongest part of our team for a while now, and looked pretty good again on Sunday night.

If you want to worry about tall players who make mistakes that cost us games, I'd be focusing more on Max King than on Howard.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998416Post CQ SAINT »

If Dougal stays in the middle of the 50 and follows the ball and not his man, you can beat your bottom dollar, the better forwards will choose the low percentage lead to the pockets.
Howard is rarely out marked by most forwards in the hot zones, there are exceptions that outweigh and out mark all their opponents, this is what people are concerned about.
Thats not Douglas fault, s***, where could Wilkie play if we actually had a big full back, who wasn't recently retired or recycled from another clubs injury list.
Wilkie would be very dangerous on a half forward flank.
Dougie is an unappreciated asset.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998417Post Vortex »

meher baba wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 9:48am

If you want to worry about tall players who make mistakes that cost us games, I'd be focusing more on Max King than on Howard.


Not to make too fine a point, re focusing on the mistakes rather than what a player does well, you could mount an argument that Max cost us a finals spot last year and arguably cost a coach his job, but I wan't to stress I don't actually think that is the case, but at some point the view Ratt's might have survived had we made finals could become a deeper topic of discussion?

In any case, and back on your point about focusing on what players do well, Max had an ok (ish) year and kicked 52 goals but there was a game or two he cost us that was difference in the end.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998420Post CQ SAINT »

Vortex wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:00am
meher baba wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 9:48am

If you want to worry about tall players who make mistakes that cost us games, I'd be focusing more on Max King than on Howard.


Not to make too fine a point, re focusing on the mistakes rather than what a player does well, you could mount an argument that Max cost us a finals spot last year and arguably cost a coach his job, but I wan't to stress I don't actually think that is the case, but at some point the view Ratt's might have survived had we made finals could become a deeper topic of discussion?

In any case, and back on your point about focusing on what players do well, Max had an ok (ish) year and kicked 52 goals but there was a game or two he cost us that was difference in the end.
Thats a really good point.

You might also argue that with a few simple gameplan changes, King could have been coached a lot better and not to be a lead sinker for the forward line, in the hope that Larry Moe and dare I say it, Curley, would kick us a winning score chasing down the defenders feeding off Max. Max may have kicked 70 and we could have developed another tall forward, maybe even Sharman, to do the same.
It was about membership counts and potential, the Carlton vision, we were just lacking the huge benefactors, keeping the cub running while we pour all our resources into actually winning games of football.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998422Post Vortex »

CQ SAINT wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:27am
Vortex wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:00am
meher baba wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 9:48am

If you want to worry about tall players who make mistakes that cost us games, I'd be focusing more on Max King than on Howard.


Not to make too fine a point, re focusing on the mistakes rather than what a player does well, you could mount an argument that Max cost us a finals spot last year and arguably cost a coach his job, but I wan't to stress I don't actually think that is the case, but at some point the view Ratt's might have survived had we made finals could become a deeper topic of discussion?

In any case, and back on your point about focusing on what players do well, Max had an ok (ish) year and kicked 52 goals but there was a game or two he cost us that was difference in the end.
Thats a really good point.

You might also argue that with a few simple gameplan changes, King could have been coached a lot better and not to be a lead sinker for the forward line, in the hope that Larry Moe and dare I say it, Curley, would kick us a winning score chasing down the defenders feeding off Max. Max may have kicked 70 and we could have developed another tall forward, maybe even Sharman, to do the same.
It was about membership counts and potential, the Carlton vision, we were just lacking the huge benefactors, keeping the cub running while we pour all our resources into actually winning games of football.
I was actually talking about a full forward who had marked the ball to give himself set shots well within range, some even close range AND multiple times and missed, was it 5 misses in one game and we lost be a very small margin in one of the games late in the season...I'm trying to forget the second half of last season.

But I stress, the game is very funny like this because you could go back over the whole season and pick apart basic skill errors by players that also could have arguably lost the team games but when it comes to your marquee full forward who has one job it sought of attracts a more intense focus.

Looking forward to seeing how Max performs under the Boss.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998425Post CQ SAINT »

Vortex wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:46am
CQ SAINT wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:27am
Vortex wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:00am
meher baba wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 9:48am

If you want to worry about tall players who make mistakes that cost us games, I'd be focusing more on Max King than on Howard.


Not to make too fine a point, re focusing on the mistakes rather than what a player does well, you could mount an argument that Max cost us a finals spot last year and arguably cost a coach his job, but I wan't to stress I don't actually think that is the case, but at some point the view Ratt's might have survived had we made finals could become a deeper topic of discussion?

In any case, and back on your point about focusing on what players do well, Max had an ok (ish) year and kicked 52 goals but there was a game or two he cost us that was difference in the end.
Thats a really good point.

You might also argue that with a few simple gameplan changes, King could have been coached a lot better and not to be a lead sinker for the forward line, in the hope that Larry Moe and dare I say it, Curley, would kick us a winning score chasing down the defenders feeding off Max. Max may have kicked 70 and we could have developed another tall forward, maybe even Sharman, to do the same.
It was about membership counts and potential, the Carlton vision, we were just lacking the huge benefactors, keeping the cub running while we pour all our resources into actually winning games of football.
I was actually talking about a full forward who had marked the ball to give himself set shots well within range, some even close range AND multiple times and missed, was it 5 misses in one game and we lost be a very small margin in one of the games late in the season...I'm trying to forget the second half of last season.

But I stress, the game is very funny like this because you could go back over the whole season and pick apart basic skill errors by players that also could have arguably lost the team games but when it comes to your marquee full forward who has one job it sought of attracts a more intense focus.

Looking forward to seeing how Max performs under the Boss.
I did say it was a good point. Didnt see the point in repeating it.

I guess my point, is Max came in under injury and had a huge rehab before he hit the dirt. We let Bruce walk away. Then we fed King to the Lions and made him the big white hope. Some coaches say all the right things, make all the right moves, increase membership and hope and when they leave, its like they were never there.
Max was never a confident shot at goal. His first two coaches didn't do much to increase his confidence levels and bargained on instilling in him, the one attribute he didn't come with, strength. Nice development.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998426Post Sanctorum »

I concede that St Kilda's defence has been of a satisfactory standard in a majority of games in the recent past and this is likely to improve even more so under the new coaching panel, as it is generally agreed that preventing opposition teams from scoring is one of Ross Lyon's hallmarks.

This was evident last week against Fremantle, and could well be a big factor against Footscray on Saturday.

It will be interesting to see if Howard does in fact become a better player this year, in which case I will gladly wear the egg that's gonna be thrown at my face for my lack of faith in his performance!

On the other hand, it is equally apparent that if Howard plays some bad games he, like anyone else in the same canoe, is going to be dumped to give others like Van Es and Adams standing in the wings a chance to prove themselves.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998428Post CQ SAINT »

Sanctorum wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:58am I concede that St Kilda's defence has been of a satisfactory standard in a majority of games in the recent past and this is likely to improve even more so under the new coaching panel, as it is generally agreed that preventing opposition teams from scoring is one of Ross Lyon's hallmarks.

This was evident last week against Fremantle, and could well be a big factor against Footscray on Saturday.

It will be interesting to see if Howard does in fact become a better player this year, in which case I will gladly wear the egg that's gonna be thrown at my face for my lack of faith in his performance!

On the other hand, it is equally apparent that if Howard plays some bad games he, like anyone else in the same canoe, is going to be dumped to give others like Van Es and Adams standing in the wings a chance to prove themselves.
He won't be dumped, he will be put in a position that suits his best attributes. He is a rebounding defender and if used properly, his best skills, will be ideally used in a full press defence, not stopping his Gorilla opponents because we turned over the ball and left him alone in the square.

Fremantle peppered the inside 50 in the 4th on Sunday. What did they score?
There's not alot wrong with our defensive structure. King gets hammered and got 52 goals and opposition teams would just walk the ball out of our forward line.

Our defence gets smashed most weeks, then Richmond, Geelong and Melbourne just pick us apart. When the last time Dougal, had more than four kicked on him, for comparison, how many midfielders and smalls and 3rd tall forwards, damage us on the scoreboard.

This is what coaches fix. The players can't do it all.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998430Post Vortex »

CQ SAINT wrote: Thu 23 Mar 2023 11:56am
I did say it was a good point. Didnt see the point in repeating it.

I guess my point, is Max came in under injury and had a huge rehab before he hit the dirt. We let Bruce walk away. Then we fed King to the Lions and made him the big white hope. Some coaches say all the right things, make all the right moves, increase membership and hope and when they leave, its like they were never there.
Max was never a confident shot at goal. His first two coaches didn't do much to increase his confidence levels and bargained on instilling in him, the one attribute he didn't come with, strength. Nice development.
My apologies, I got confused with the Larry Moe and Curley reference.

Agree with Bruce, I wasn't sure about that trade at the time and for the reasons you mentioned, I might have triggered a few posters at the time who seemed happy to see him go which I didn't get. He absolutely could have benefited from a
wingman aye.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998457Post Saintmike65 »

I am not a Howard fan, similarly to Seb Ross, I’m looking forward to the day we go past those 2!!


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998465Post WellardSaint »

I've watched the game 3 times, and haven't seen Dougal kick it in at all (after an oppo point).
It was NWM and Sincs.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998552Post Vortex »

Listening to Kane and Gerard yesterday having a chat to that dude from Champion Data, can't remember the exact figures but Doogs apparently is in the top few of the AFL for field kicking accuracy, specifically for pin pointing the exit kick inboard or to those tricky nook n crannies coming out of defence, i.e. taking the risky kick that other less talented players couldn't bite off.


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Re: Dougal Howard

Post: # 1998554Post B.M »

Agreed saintmike

Seb has had a shocking 200 game career

He’s been the problem

I realise he was voted the best player, but definitely his fault we were s***!!!


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