Is Lyon mark 2 the right fit for the saints

[Teflon]

Yes, I’d have sacked Ratten after the review indicated that the football department was lacking in certain areas. I also believe Lyon is the best person to take over.

I also wouldn’t have been so stupid as to extend Ratten mid season when there was no need. We were flying, but at that point were we assured to make finals- NO
So why not wait??

That was the embarrassment- and half this forum said it at the time
There was even a poll on it

Hallelujah!
We agree.

[B.M]

When did I ever say Ross can’t coach

Or further to the point

That Ratten could?

I don’t agree with you… I just have my own opinion

Whether it’s the same as yours or not - I don’t care one iota

[Teflon]

Teflon, neither scollop or I are arguing that the coach is the only factor in a team's success, and we're not saying that anyone else is arguing that either ... what we're arguing is - it is hard to compare one coach's performance with another coach's performance - even the same coach in different years (19-0 and 0-10). So, it's hard to tease out how they're faring based on w/l percentages, etc. - there's no sense in doing that.

There's obviously other much bigger factors at play.

Injuries is one of these factors - and it's a variable.
We were an 8-3 side in 2022 before injuries ... we're not a bad side.

Singing RL's praises or any head coach's praises is just giving them too much importance.

If we have an injury free run in 2023, St Kilda will do well ... if we suffer long-term injuries to key players (as Collingwood did in Buckley's last year), St Kilda won't do well.
It's as simple as that.

(But, this is where I've praised Lyon ... for getting our soft-tissue injuries under control, after we had a spate of them under GT.
He brings the right people on board - Misson, etc..).

So you can’t compare coaches ever????
BOLLOCKS
Ratten (at 2 clubs abd Lyon at 2) have ample time/games under their belts to compare
You just contradicted yourself by posting an article lauding LYON’S ability after the GT debacle to go out and GET THE BEST people to the club - is that not part of a coaches key responsibility??? Recognise the flaws and do something about it??
Don’t listen to idiots telling you injury is just “good luck…it’s a collision sport” ofcourse luck is involved but as Misson proved at Swans (who ALWAYS hit their best on the park Year in Year out) it can also be better managed
Ofcourse you can sit back and look at coaches and compare and it’s beyond W/L and lists …

[Teflon]

When did I ever say Ross can’t coach

Or further to the point

That Ratten could?

I don’t agree with you… I just have my own opinion

Whether it’s the same as yours or not - I don’t care one iota

Hang on….
I just agreed with you…now you’re disagreeing with me agreeing with you ??
Do the kids ever just put their hand up and say
“Mr Mart….we’re confused..”

[B.M]

What a load of rubbish

Comparing coaches with 2 different lists, different injury lists, different access to resources, different assistants, different development coaches, different age profile of lists… need I go on

What you can compare is the same coach with two different lists and draw a conclusion that the coach had less impact than the list

Malthouse- Collingwood compared to Carlton
Pagan - North compared to Carlton
Eade - Sydney/Bulldogs to Gold Coast
Lyon - 2012-2017 Dockers to 2018 -2020 dockers

Fact is
The best coaches are the ones with the best list

Lyon
StK - Reiwoldt, Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo, Fisher, Montagna, Milne
Freo - Pavlich, Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow Sandilands, Walters, Johnson, McPharlin, Hill

Elite Lists

[Teflon]

What a load of rubbish

Comparing coaches with 2 different lists, different injury lists, different access to resources, different assistants, different development coaches, different age profile of lists… need I go on

What you can compare is the same coach with two different lists and draw a conclusion that the coach had less impact than the list

Malthouse- Collingwood compared to Carlton
Pagan - North compared to Carlton
Eade - Sydney/Bulldogs to Gold Coast
Lyon - 2012-2017 Dockers to 2018 -2020 dockers

Fact is
The best coaches are the ones with the best list

Lyon
StK - Reiwoldt, Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo, Fisher, Montagna, Milne
Freo - Pavlich, Fyfe, Mundy, Barlow Sandilands, Walters, Johnson, McPharlin, Hill

Elite Lists

More simpleton, cliched theory..

Facts are best coaches also play a hand in developing the “best lists” - Clarkson at Hawthorn just sat back and waited in a dark room did he???? Scott at Geelong hasn’t busted his arse to get additional talent into that side???
What numpty suggests GOOD coaches play no role in that at all abd it’s all just coincidence???
On your theory Brett Ratten is the equivalent match day coach to Allistair Clarkson ????
Utter garbage. Ask any football pundit with half a brain.

[B.M]

Are you confused with the role of the senior coach?

Role of list managers?
Recruiters?
Development coaches?

You need to get a better understanding of how footy clubs work and what senior coaches actually do?

They are important, but players win games

BTW
Has Allan Richardson ever beaten Hawthorn (Clarkson) as Senior Coach?
Can you explain how the fk that happened - they had a better list, they had a better coach???
FFS - we even had Seb Ross playing!!!!

[Teflon]

Are you confused with the role of the senior coach?

Role of list managers?
Recruiters?
Development coaches?

You need to get a better understanding of how footy clubs work and what senior coaches actually do?

They are important, but players win games

BTW
Has Allan Richardson ever beaten Hawthorn (Clarkson) as Senior Coach?
Can you explain how the fk that happened - they had a better list, they had a better coach???
FFS - we even had Seb Ross playing!!!!

Ok you’re right
The only reason Brett Ratten isn’t as good a coach as Allistair Clarkson is because Allistair has always had the list and Brett just never has.
Apart from that, they’re dead set equal and can’t be compared.
Cracking logic!

[bigred]

I have to be clear, I really, really rate Ross Lyon as a coach. I consider him to be an excellent match day coach, and game plan freaking master. Hopefully he has the fire in the belly for that Flag. I hope its burning.

At this point, I would say that I expect Lyon to be better in almost every way this time around. Experience counts.

I hate to do it but 2023 I'm pretty much giving him a free pass. We go 50/50 and I'll be more than happy. We make finals and its on baby.

The one thing that is critical that we see is the flat stick effort. No longer do we just not show up which was Ratten's issue for two years.
I want to see the foundations of a game plan. It took him a solid year last time. I dont really think you can expect it to be quicker. Buy in must be absolute.

Is he the right fit? Absolutely.

We will need some luck with injury of course to really see our best. But so does everyone.

I hope we continue to have a legitimate preseason. Just more effort. Too many guys have been leaving far too much at the table.

I cant wait for this season. We have had so many false dawns in my lifetime. But I really believe that we are on the right path.

[The Fireman]

totally agree Bigred ..unfortunately there are some on here that dont share those views which i find a bit strange

[samoht]

I have to be clear, I really, really rate Ross Lyon as a coach. I consider him to be an excellent match day coach, and game plan freaking master. Hopefully he has the fire in the belly for that Flag. I hope its burning.

St Kilda needed a shake up ... including coaching.

But...
Re: RL's match day coaching nous, there was one game where I seriously questioned it (and I've mentioned this game before).

It was vs Essendon, when we were top of the ladder, and they were a bottom team.
Essendon had 2 speedsters ... I think it was Lovett and Davy start alongside each other after half time, around half forward.
RL, in his infinite wisdom, decided to leave them unopposed and in free space.
Whenever the ball was kicked their way (and it would have happened at least 10 times), one of the duo took the ball unopposed, ran with it and delivered pinpoint passes to their forwards, who were no more than 25 metres out, dead in front.

Although we had double the forward entries and 150 more possessions in that game, Essendon took advantage of poor match-day coaching, and they won running away. Their efficiency was through the roof.

Freddy the blind pig/coach could see what was going on and would have done something about it. It was infuriating to watch.

[shanegrambeau]

I have to be clear, I really, really rate Ross Lyon as a coach. I consider him to be an excellent match day coach, and game plan freaking master. Hopefully he has the fire in the belly for that Flag. I hope its burning.

St Kilda needed a shake up ... including coaching.

But...
Re: RL's match day coaching nous, there was one game where I seriously questioned it (and I've mentioned this game before).

It was vs Essendon, when we were top of the ladder, and they were a bottom team.
Essendon had 2 speedsters ... I think it was Lovett and Davy start alongside each other after half time, around half forward.
RL, in his infinite wisdom, decided to leave them unopposed and in free space.
Whenever the ball was kicked their way (and it would have happened at least 10 times), one of the duo took the ball unopposed, ran with it and delivered pinpoint passes to their forwards, who were no more than 25 metres out, dead in front.

Although we had double the forward entries and 150 more possessions in that game, Essendon took advantage of poor match-day coaching, and they won running away. Their efficiency was through the roof.

Freddy the blind pig/coach could see what was going on and would have done something about it. It was infuriating to watch.

‘09?
After our unbroken run? And the trip to Tassie with half the team missing, which we stil won?

That hurt..

Well, maybe that’s why he got Lovett?

[Teflon]

I have to be clear, I really, really rate Ross Lyon as a coach. I consider him to be an excellent match day coach, and game plan freaking master. Hopefully he has the fire in the belly for that Flag. I hope its burning.

At this point, I would say that I expect Lyon to be better in almost every way this time around. Experience counts.

I hate to do it but 2023 I'm pretty much giving him a free pass. We go 50/50 and I'll be more than happy. We make finals and its on baby.

The one thing that is critical that we see is the flat stick effort. No longer do we just not show up which was Ratten's issue for two years.
I want to see the foundations of a game plan. It took him a solid year last time. I dont really think you can expect it to be quicker. Buy in must be absolute.

Is he the right fit? Absolutely.

We will need some luck with injury of course to really see our best. But so does everyone.

I hope we continue to have a legitimate preseason. Just more effort. Too many guys have been leaving far too much at the table.

I cant wait for this season. We have had so many false dawns in my lifetime. But I really believe that we are on the right path.

Great post Red
Before the moves I was despondent going into this season I could see us going nowhere
The Board have breathed life into the club and I commend them for having the goolies to take the media hit and make a tough call
Success as a club must be put above what Caro thinks of us - I could care less
Do whatever it takes
Will Lyon get us there? Don’t know
I DO know Ratten wouldn’t
S

[Josh Battle]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

[Yorkeys]

As N'Damus predicted:
and the Ratts will fall ignobly from the impregnable 8 - 3 position that few could contrive to c**k up and verily pass the baton to the Lyon from the West. And there will be doubters, but even they will have hope.

[samoht]

Shanegrambeau wrote ....

‘09?
After our unbroken run? And the trip to Tassie with half the team missing, which we stil won?

That hurt..

Well, maybe that’s why he got Lovett?
[/quote]

I can't recall the actual game, and I might have the two quick players and even the quarters wrong, as Lovett wasn't playing in the 2009 game. I just googled that game up.

All I remember is in the first quarter, at least, we were totally controlling the game, with double their possessions.
Then this placement of their 2 quicks around half forward and in free space ... one was probably Davy, after quarter time.
They might have only been left that way for a portion of that quarter (whatever quarter it was), but the game turned around from that point on.

[Teflon]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

So you’re suggesting we should’ve stuck with Brett Ratten - it’s not hard….just come out and say it??
And you’ve seen THIS version of Lyon fail before have ??
I don’t need to be Nostradamus to know that’s BS

[bigred]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

Not the logic. Lyon has proof that he can actually get more than one list to Grand Finals.
That actually counts. It would be better if he actually had a GF win of course, but getting to the dance is more than half the battle.

While the 2020 finals win was an absolute godsend for us as a supporter group, the fact of the matter is that Ratts couldn't get us there again.
Saying that Ratten had success with the current list is stretching it a bit.
One finals win is not really passable.

Honestly our expectations need to be so much higher.

[Teflon]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

Not the logic. Lyon has proof that he can actually get more than one list to Grand Finals.
That actually counts. It would be better if he actually had a GF win of course, but getting to the dance is more than half the battle.

While the 2020 finals win was an absolute godsend for us as a supporter group, the fact of the matter is that Ratts couldn't get us there again.
Saying that Ratten had success with the current list is stretching it a bit.
One finals win is not really passable.

Honestly our expectations need to be so much higher.

Spot on Red and thank **** the Board had a gutfull and saw it that way too
What Lyon WILL do is lift the standards that had clearly slipped under “choose your own pre season adventure” with Brett

[Vortex]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

Not the logic. Lyon has proof that he can actually get more than one list to Grand Finals.
That actually counts. It would be better if he actually had a GF win of course, but getting to the dance is more than half the battle.

While the 2020 finals win was an absolute godsend for us as a supporter group, the fact of the matter is that Ratts couldn't get us there again.
Saying that Ratten had success with the current list is stretching it a bit.
One finals win is not really passable.

Honestly our expectations need to be so much higher.

The Covid cup was a bit of slap and tickle, Brett benefited from a list that adapted to the Covid cup better than most. Lethers admitted as much.

2020 was an aberration and most pundits never rated it as serious competition.

[Teflon]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

Not the logic. Lyon has proof that he can actually get more than one list to Grand Finals.
That actually counts. It would be better if he actually had a GF win of course, but getting to the dance is more than half the battle.

While the 2020 finals win was an absolute godsend for us as a supporter group, the fact of the matter is that Ratts couldn't get us there again.
Saying that Ratten had success with the current list is stretching it a bit.
One finals win is not really passable.

Honestly our expectations need to be so much higher.

The Covid cup was a bit of slap and tickle, Brett benefited from a list that adapted to the Covid cup better than most. Lethers admitted as much.

2020 was an aberration and most pundits never rated it as serious competition.

Good man
You’re coming around
Like it !

[saynta]

Lyon has been there before.

Therefore he’ll do it again. That’s the logic; right?

Ratten had some success in finals AND with 2 different teams over his career so why couldn’t he do that again?

Granted he didn’t go all the way, but he had success with THIS squad in recent times. Would have been a different final with both Ryder and Carlisle available in 2020.

Lyon has NOT had success with this current list. Ratten has. Lyon went deeper in finals. So what. It was a long time ago and granted he had 2 quality “proven” lists that had already played in prelims. Ratten inherited bottom four teams and lifted them

Did Ratten lose all his coaching skills in 2022? Did he lose the players or any leaders in 2022?

I DO know Ratten wouldn’t

You’re Nostradamus now are you

Not the logic. Lyon has proof that he can actually get more than one list to Grand Finals.
That actually counts. It would be better if he actually had a GF win of course, but getting to the dance is more than half the battle.

While the 2020 finals win was an absolute godsend for us as a supporter group, the fact of the matter is that Ratts couldn't get us there again.
Saying that Ratten had success with the current list is stretching it a bit.
One finals win is not really passable.

Honestly our expectations need to be so much higher.

The Covid cup was a bit of slap and tickle, Brett benefited from a list that adapted to the Covid cup better than most. Lethers admitted as much.

2020 was an aberration and most pundits never rated it as serious competition.

What a steaming smelly pile of horse manure.

And guess what, the club doesn't agree with you.

[skeptic]

When did Lethars admit that Vortex?
Was this a personal conversation or was it reported somewhere ?

You keep making these claims that the players thought it was a joke and the management have acknowledged this… and that it’s widely known in circles…
But I’ve never heard anyone other than you say it

[Teflon]

When did Lethars admit that Vortex?
Was this a personal conversation or was it reported somewhere ?

You keep making these claims that the players thought it was a joke and the management have acknowledged this… and that it’s widely known in circles…
But I’ve never heard anyone other than you say it

I read Lethers say we adapted better to bubble , shorter games etc than perhaps other clubs
Who cares facts are 2 years later THE CLUB had enough, recognised it was an anomaly and swung the axe
Thank god.

[skeptic]

When did Lethars admit that Vortex?
Was this a personal conversation or was it reported somewhere ?

You keep making these claims that the players thought it was a joke and the management have acknowledged this… and that it’s widely known in circles…
But I’ve never heard anyone other than you say it

I read Lethers say we adapted better to bubble , shorter games etc than perhaps other clubs
Who cares facts are 2 years later THE CLUB had enough, recognised it was an anomaly and swung the axe
Thank god.

I’m just interested in the specifics as I’ve read a few variations of the story