Match Review

[bergsone]

I feel they exposed our weakness,lack of midfield .Steele,Crouch.Gresham were OK after that found it hard to find anyone else.Ryder will help by giving us first use .Really missed Jones in there and hopefully Hannas can get on the park sooner rather than later.Long imo should be included along with Sharman next week

[st.byron]

"While Jack Hayes was good around the ground and in front of goal, he's no ruckman. RoMa had to all of that by himself. That's unsustainable. The reality is that this group of players will never see finals action again let alone experience the ultimate prize. We need to do really badly for three years and when players like Christian Petracca are on offer, take them. Today, a team of up to a dozen midfielders is required - players who are at least 186cm tall, who can run 100m in even time, can leap over a pack and can kick 50 metres either foot. Should be easy.

This is the nub of the issue. Thin ruck stocks and a midfield lacking class and run. The filth kicked five goals direct from centre clearances. Five. We were smashed in there.

[cwrcyn]

When two players who were played to provide support to the midfield give nothing, and I mean NOTHING (Byrnes & Owens) in a half of football, then it has a massive detrimental effect on the team. If those guys had just got 6 possessions each the first half it would have made a big difference. Instead, they go 2 between them, and that left all the work up to Crouch, Ross, and Steele, all slow players.

[Scollop]

Collingwood won an elimination final in 2020. So did we. Both teams went on to lose in the second week.

The side that beat us last night was our equal in 2020 ….when apparently we were a chance to go all the way!! Well… that’s what some of the faithful here on Saintsational would have you believe.

The optimists here (and in the media generally) have clearly over rated the current Saints list and especially the ‘so called’ starting 22

Collingwood were in a Grand Final just 3 and a half years ago and with a couple of minutes to go they could have won it.

They have some serious talent on their list and although some of them are in the twilight of their careers, they still go ok

They are currently resigned to the fact that they need to play youth and they will also recruit youth and keep turning over their list until they have the core again to create sustained success.

That is the blueprint and that’s what we should have done in 2016 to 2018 when Riewoldt and Joey Montagna and Chips and Gilbo and Armo and Gears - who were all from the Lyon era - were entering the twilight of their careers.

[Sainter_Dad]

6 months to come up with a winning game plan and all we get is the same as last year. Definition of insanity is what? Slow ball movement, no run past, no play on, no up field structures, no corridor, long down the line, no stoppage strategy and outcome is mostly kick and hope long bombs into a crowded F50. And we're going to kill Maxie. Only a matter of time he's one 4 on 2 pack launch away from missing 12 months like Ben. Might cop it here, but standing firm. Pies are a 10-14 side at best and my finals dream is shot based on last night . Then again maybe no point posting and possibly copping forum wrath with Ratts is out of contract and on last night no hope in Hades coaching us in 2023.

Don’t disagree. With any of it.

Also interesting to note - after getting an ear full of 'Man Up' from behind me at the game - we guard space - BUT NOT VERY WELL

ALL IT TAKES IS EFFORT

We do not do it to force the opposition into our 'spider web' we do it and allow the switch, switch back (if that is what the opposition wants) and then leave the 45 free.

Come on guys

You had a chance to honor Spud - Blew It (to the eventual premiers admittedly)
You had a chance to honor Warne - Blew it (to what I hope are 14 - 18 side)

Marquee Game - whenever we play that time slot I will be tipping against us.
Friday Night - whenever we play that time slot I will be tipping against us.
Milestone Games - I will be tipping against us.

No F@RKING Ticker

[Impatient Sainter]

The obvious is apart from Marshall and glimpses from Gresham our midfield was smashed. We were absolutely slaughtered at ground level with Collingwoods winning first use with quick hands.

Collingwoods have found a player in Lipinsksi - WTF can't we pick up players like that? We couldnt match their pressure for most of the game. Crouch battles hard but his centre clearance work and kicking are rubbish.

The give it to Hill mantra is ridiculous and Collingwood sat off him and forced him it to turn over numerous times.

Positives:
Jack Hayes showed he can play at the top level and have massive impact.
No obvious injuries from the game.
Gresham back give us a bit more class at times.
Marshall won 3/4 against Grundy - Grundy got him in the last.
Steele/Wilkie/Sinclair ever reliable.

Negatives:
No quality midfield help for Steele.
Owens found the step up a bit too much, but he will learn from that game.
Hill playing off HBF he is a liability.
Howard had an ordinary game,, he went for marks but fumbled, then punched when he should have marked.
Apart from Steele we have no decent midfield options.
Kent is an absolute choker.
Collingwoods quick hands made our skills look ordinary.

Wow… disagree completely on Hill in that he wore a hard tag IMO and worked hard to get from contest to contest and did a lot of stuff under serious pressure.
Stuffed up a few times but it was under duress and I thought he created way way more then he messed up.

I had him in the best. One of the few that did a sold 4 quarter performance

Agree on all other points though

We're you at the game Skeptic? Footy is a subjectve sport. I just thought the plan Collingwood had to corale him, caused too many rushed disposals when we had other options.

[Viscount Jeremiah]

Nothing to do with game plan.

Our mids were beaten to the ball all night because apart from Steele we just can't match Collingwood in that area.

It's going to be an ongoing issue unless we get Jones, Clark back soon and some guys stand up and improve

[skeptic]

The obvious is apart from Marshall and glimpses from Gresham our midfield was smashed. We were absolutely slaughtered at ground level with Collingwoods winning first use with quick hands.

Collingwoods have found a player in Lipinsksi - WTF can't we pick up players like that? We couldnt match their pressure for most of the game. Crouch battles hard but his centre clearance work and kicking are rubbish.

The give it to Hill mantra is ridiculous and Collingwood sat off him and forced him it to turn over numerous times.

Positives:
Jack Hayes showed he can play at the top level and have massive impact.
No obvious injuries from the game.
Gresham back give us a bit more class at times.
Marshall won 3/4 against Grundy - Grundy got him in the last.
Steele/Wilkie/Sinclair ever reliable.

Negatives:
No quality midfield help for Steele.
Owens found the step up a bit too much, but he will learn from that game.
Hill playing off HBF he is a liability.
Howard had an ordinary game,, he went for marks but fumbled, then punched when he should have marked.
Apart from Steele we have no decent midfield options.
Kent is an absolute choker.
Collingwoods quick hands made our skills look ordinary.

Wow… disagree completely on Hill in that he wore a hard tag IMO and worked hard to get from contest to contest and did a lot of stuff under serious pressure.
Stuffed up a few times but it was under duress and I thought he created way way more then he messed up.

I had him in the best. One of the few that did a sold 4 quarter performance

Agree on all other points though

We're you at the game Skeptic? Footy is a subjectve sport. I just thought the plan Collingwood had to corale him, caused too many rushed disposals when we had other options.

I was.

I think I just interpreted your point wrong

100% agree that they shouldn’t look to Hill at every opportunity as Collingwood did corale him and forced mistakes… and a number of times he got it under quite bad pressure.
Pay that point.

I’m just weary of over criticising the players that tried the hard stuff and misfired on occasion versus those that didn’t give a yelp at all

[Teflon]

I feel they exposed our weakness,lack of midfield .Steele,Crouch.Gresham were OK after that found it hard to find anyone else.Ryder will help by giving us first use .Really missed Jones in there and hopefully Hannas can get on the park sooner rather than later.Long imo should be included along with Sharman next week

That’s the sad bit
We really need ….Paddy…..Hanna’s…..Jones back
I see a problem with that strategy…not sustainable

[Teflon]

Nothing to do with game plan.

Our mids were beaten to the ball all night because apart from Steele we just can't match Collingwood in that area.

It's going to be an ongoing issue unless we get Jones, Clark back soon and some guys stand up and improve

Yes cause that’s the reason when we went forward we just bombed it to a pack???
Game plan all over the joint mate
1st half to 2nd half like Jekyll and Hyde …no wonder players confused …I was too

[Viscount Jeremiah]

Nothing to do with game plan.

Our mids were beaten to the ball all night because apart from Steele we just can't match Collingwood in that area.

It's going to be an ongoing issue unless we get Jones, Clark back soon and some guys stand up and improve

Yes cause that’s the reason when we went forward we just bombed it to a pack???
Game plan all over the joint mate
1st half to 2nd half like Jekyll and Hyde …no wonder players confused …I was too

Yes, it is the reason.

When you start every attacking move from defensive 50 and can't win a front half stoppage clearance it's pretty bloody hard to have time and space to find a target with an inside 50 kick.

It's the same with every team in the AFL, they all look good going inside 50 when the midfield is on top and they all bomb it when they are being pressured and beaten around the stoppage.

Did we play that way in 2020 when our mids were getting first use from Ryder and we were winning clearances?

Ratten is actively instructing them to hit up targets and not bomb the ball - the issue is that's much harder to execute in reality when you can't win clearance. Quality of clearance also matters.

[seano1]

What peed me off was our midfield continued to not know who was in the middle , who is on the wing or at least once who was on the bench .
And then you don’t help the defence out when you don’t hassle or chase

[Teflon]

Nothing to do with game plan.

Our mids were beaten to the ball all night because apart from Steele we just can't match Collingwood in that area.

It's going to be an ongoing issue unless we get Jones, Clark back soon and some guys stand up and improve

Yes cause that’s the reason when we went forward we just bombed it to a pack???
Game plan all over the joint mate
1st half to 2nd half like Jekyll and Hyde …no wonder players confused …I was too

Yes, it is the reason.

When you start every attacking move from defensive 50 and can't win a front half stoppage clearance it's pretty bloody hard to have time and space to find a target with an inside 50 kick.

It's the same with every team in the AFL, they all look good going inside 50 when the midfield is on top and they all bomb it when they are being pressured and beaten around the stoppage.

Did we play that way in 2020 when our mids were getting first use from Ryder and we were winning clearances?

Ratten is actively instructing them to hit up targets and not bomb the ball - the issue is that's much harder to execute in reality when you can't win clearance. Quality of clearance also matters.

They kicked 5.2 from clearances
We cleaned it up second half and still lost
Point is midfield was woeful
That doesn’t excuse the pathetic slow build up bomb to forward 50 cr@p we played in the first half - deplorable
It also doesn’t excuse our pathetic ball movement into fwd 50 all last season - we still bombed then too!!
You’re argument would have weight if this was a 1 off…reality is it’s not

[lefty]

Nothing to do with game plan.

Our mids were beaten to the ball all night because apart from Steele we just can't match Collingwood in that area.

It's going to be an ongoing issue unless we get Jones, Clark back soon and some guys stand up and improve

Were you are the game? Because on TV it looks OK, but at the game everyone can see the next kick / where the ball is going to go, and we were always outnumbered.

The game plan was woeful in the first half. It was stagnant, kick down the line to pack marks, where Collingwood would have more numbers, play on and switch towards the middle/back, and then go down the middle.

I'm sick of us just kicking the ball into the forward line, where King has to compete in a pack mark school yard non-sense against a bunch of blokes. Why don't any of the forwards start on the goal line and lead forward? Collingwood did it, Lapinski can hit a low pass into the forward line to a lead that no one can defender. For us, we we just bomb it in hope.

King also running under the ball and grabbing the ball behind his head makes it easy to spoil, instead of in front. I hope that gets addressed this week.

Game plan seriously needs looking at. Mark, stop, kick down the line isn't working and never has. I don't know if this is the players or the coaches, but at least they tried in the last quarter to move the ball and go inboard. Just when they do that, they need the forward line to be setup and ready to lead for the kick, not be running towards the goals out of position.

The other issue, is the ruck should NEVER tap if backwards, everytime that happened, we just got swarmed, and the opposition just swarm / push the ball forward. It never works going backwards. If we're going to hit it backwards, go at least 5m back and have a quarter back ready. I'd rather they just hit the ball forward and we run onto it.

[CURLY]

Collingwood won an elimination final in 2020. So did we. Both teams went on to lose in the second week.

The side that beat us last night was our equal in 2020 ….when apparently we were a chance to go all the way!! Well… that’s what some of the faithful here on Saintsational would have you believe.

The optimists here (and in the media generally) have clearly over rated the current Saints list and especially the ‘so called’ starting 22

Collingwood were in a Grand Final just 3 and a half years ago and with a couple of minutes to go they could have won it.

They have some serious talent on their list and although some of them are in the twilight of their careers, they still go ok

They are currently resigned to the fact that they need to play youth and they will also recruit youth and keep turning over their list until they have the core again to create sustained success.

That is the blueprint and that’s what we should have done in 2016 to 2018 when Riewoldt and Joey Montagna and Chips and Gilbo and Armo and Gears - who were all from the Lyon era - were entering the twilight of their careers.

Collingwood had three players unavailable.

StKilda had 9 minimum out.

Three of StKilda's outs are part of the mid group. Jones for Owen Billings for Kent and Clarke for Brynes the game isn't close.

[cwrcyn]

Kicking long to contests is a completely self defeating strategy. Used as a defensive measure when trying to hold onto a lead late in a game it is acceptable, but as a means of attack it is utterly USELESS. Over 90% of the time the ball will come straight back. Once you telegraph that strategy to the opposition, they just lick their chops and set themselves up where they can swarm, spread and slingshot the ball forward at speed, leaving our guys flat footed. It is the dumbest kind of football and we've been watching that crap for a decade. I honestly thought Ratten was smarter than this, but I might be wrong.

When a team starts off like Collingwood did against us on Friday (high energy, fast ball movement) the sensible thing to do is just slow the game down a bit with short passes to players who are in space and then get the ball moving from that. Our handball receive stats were way down because we didn't employ that strategy. People like to can bad Hill, but really, with our game style, what he potentially offers us becomes redundant. The game plan simply doesn't make use of his attributes. At least he tries to make things happen, rather than pooping his pants and kicking it long to an outnumbered situation like a lot of our players do.


The coaching panel is as much under fire as the players now. Sometimes teams are a bit low energy like we were on Friday. That's when coaching really matters. Playing 1960s style football is not the answer. It just boggles the mind. Now, these coaches get paid huge salaries. If this is the best they can come up with, then we're screwed for 2022.

[older saint]

Work on the middle was poor and cost 5 goals directly from clearances or free kicks in the square.
Talent is part but attitude and willingness to sacrifice is also part of it - see last 57 minutes of the 3rd qtr of the GF. WB have one of the best midfields in the AFL yet weren't willing to sacrifice and instead got ahead of the ball or chased the ball and got killed. We have too many players who cheat the contested ball and leak out before we get it = looks great when we win the ball but opens up the other side completely when we don't.

Also how many games do we have poor starts to the third qtr? That's not coaching that is players mindset ready to go.
Very disappointing but 1 game and there was always going to be 9 losing teams after round 1.
Better gauge will be this week in Freo .

[mr six o'clock]

Collingwood won an elimination final in 2020. So did we. Both teams went on to lose in the second week.

The side that beat us last night was our equal in 2020 ….when apparently we were a chance to go all the way!! Well… that’s what some of the faithful here on Saintsational would have you believe.

The optimists here (and in the media generally) have clearly over rated the current Saints list and especially the ‘so called’ starting 22

Collingwood were in a Grand Final just 3 and a half years ago and with a couple of minutes to go they could have won it.

They have some serious talent on their list and although some of them are in the twilight of their careers, they still go ok

They are currently resigned to the fact that they need to play youth and they will also recruit youth and keep turning over their list until they have the core again to create sustained success.

That is the blueprint and that’s what we should have done in 2016 to 2018 when Riewoldt and Joey Montagna and Chips and Gilbo and Armo and Gears - who were all from the Lyon era - were entering the twilight of their careers.

Collingwood also played last year like a team who wanted to get rid of their coach .
Perhaps this year with a coach who won't be hitting on their wags they are happier and playing with more confidence.

[saintkev]

6 months to come up with a winning game plan and all we get is the same as last year. Definition of insanity is what? Slow ball movement, no run past, no play on, no up field structures, no corridor, long down the line, no stoppage strategy and outcome is mostly kick and hope long bombs into a crowded F50. And we're going to kill Maxie. Only a matter of time he's one 4 on 2 pack launch away from missing 12 months like Ben. Might cop it here, but standing firm. Pies are a 10-14 side at best and my finals dream is shot based on last night . Then again maybe no point posting and possibly copping forum wrath with Ratts is out of contract and on last night no hope in Hades coaching us in 2023.

Don’t disagree. With any of it.

Also interesting to note - after getting an ear full of 'Man Up' from behind me at the game - we guard space - BUT NOT VERY WELL

ALL IT TAKES IS EFFORT

We do not do it to force the opposition into our 'spider web' we do it and allow the switch, switch back (if that is what the opposition wants) and then leave the 45 free.

Come on guys

You had a chance to honor Spud - Blew It (to the eventual premiers admittedly)
You had a chance to honor Warne - Blew it (to what I hope are 14 - 18 side)

Marquee Game - whenever we play that time slot I will be tipping against us.
Friday Night - whenever we play that time slot I will be tipping against us.
Milestone Games - I will be tipping against us.

No F@RKING Ticker

What more incentive did they need than to honour Warnie’s memory with hard, attacking, playon football. We got a pedestrian lot who gave the impression of total disconnect. I’d rather we played switched on youngsters and take a pasting instead getting smashed with disinterested money grubbers. Build a side that plays with flair, risk-taking and enjoyment. I’m also sick of seeing Howard’s sad sack face.

[saintkev]

The obvious is apart from Marshall and glimpses from Gresham our midfield was smashed. We were absolutely slaughtered at ground level with Collingwoods winning first use with quick hands.

Collingwoods have found a player in Lipinsksi - WTF can't we pick up players like that? We couldnt match their pressure for most of the game. Crouch battles hard but his centre clearance work and kicking are rubbish.

The give it to Hill mantra is ridiculous and Collingwood sat off him and forced him it to turn over numerous times.

Positives:
Jack Hayes showed he can play at the top level and have massive impact.
No obvious injuries from the game.
Gresham back give us a bit more class at times.
Marshall won 3/4 against Grundy - Grundy got him in the last.
Steele/Wilkie/Sinclair ever reliable.

Negatives:
No quality midfield help for Steele.
Owens found the step up a bit too much, but he will learn from that game.
Hill playing off HBF he is a liability.
Howard had an ordinary game,, he went for marks but fumbled, then punched when he should have marked.
Apart from Steele we have no decent midfield options.
Kent is an absolute choker.
Collingwoods quick hands made our skills look ordinary.

Wow… disagree completely on Hill in that he wore a hard tag IMO and worked hard to get from contest to contest and did a lot of stuff under serious pressure.
Stuffed up a few times but it was under duress and I thought he created way way more then he messed up.

I had him in the best. One of the few that did a sold 4 quarter performance

Agree on all other points though

We're you at the game Skeptic? Footy is a subjectve sport. I just thought the plan Collingwood had to corale him, caused too many rushed disposals when we had other options.

How stupid was it to pass the ball to him when he was being worn like a glove?

[DJ Higgins]

Do people forget we took the lead in the last quarter so it’s not all doom and gloom. Many things are not great but let’s not forget the good things. No injuries, Hayes was awesome, Owens has had his first game and leant a lot, Marshall won three of the quarters. Ross didn’t mess up plus we have a few key outs who will improve the team

[spert]

Do people forget we took the lead in the last quarter so it’s not all doom and gloom. Many things are not great but let’s not forget the good things. No injuries, Hayes was awesome, Owens has had his first game and leant a lot, Marshall won three of the quarters. Ross didn’t mess up plus we have a few key outs who will improve the team

No excuse though for those on the field not hitting contests hard, and fighting for front position- it was a soft effort

[cwrcyn]

When we decide to take an attacking approach, we play better.

[Impatient Sainter]

Kicking long to contests is a completely self defeating strategy. Used as a defensive measure when trying to hold onto a lead late in a game it is acceptable, but as a means of attack it is utterly USELESS. Over 90% of the time the ball will come straight back. Once you telegraph that strategy to the opposition, they just lick their chops and set themselves up where they can swarm, spread and slingshot the ball forward at speed, leaving our guys flat footed. It is the dumbest kind of football and we've been watching that crap for a decade. I honestly thought Ratten was smarter than this, but I might be wrong.

When a team starts off like Collingwood did against us on Friday (high energy, fast ball movement) the sensible thing to do is just slow the game down a bit with short passes to players who are in space and then get the ball moving from that. Our handball receive stats were way down because we didn't employ that strategy. People like to can bad Hill, but really, with our game style, what he potentially offers us becomes redundant. The game plan simply doesn't make use of his attributes. At least he tries to make things happen, rather than pooping his pants and kicking it long to an outnumbered situation like a lot of our players do.


The coaching panel is as much under fire as the players now. Sometimes teams are a bit low energy like we were on Friday. That's when coaching really matters. Playing 1960s style football is not the answer. It just boggles the mind. Now, these coaches get paid huge salaries. If this is the best they can come up with, then we're screwed for 2022.

Totally agree cwcryn.

Ratts / Rath have built a game plan on the precept that Max King will dominate games in the air. He is a long way off that and to me I doubt he will ever tear games apart, with our current game plan? I know he is young and playing a huge role, but watching him live last week I saw how laconic he is and how he drifts in and out of games. Our slow ball movement allows teams to have their ruckman sit back on him and if they are caught one on one they just push him under the ball. The result is the ball goes over the top of him and his opponent. Its amazing how often Collingwood had players sweeping behind every contest and just ran it out and the Saints didnt wake up to it.

So basically Ratten is cruelling his biggest asset. He needs to free the kid up, create space in front of him and get him leading up at the ball rather than bombing it on his head. That movement should be encouraged for all our forwards rather than the dumb forward entries we persist with. If Ratten doesnt change that quickly its going to cost him his job and Im thinking it may.