Saints v dogs

[Ghost Like]

I just hope we step away from the too many small model.

IMO it’s a loser strategy unless the majority of those smells are elite
Gresh, Lonie, Butler, Kent = too many too limited, easily edged out under pressure players.

There’s room only for 2. One of them Gresh, the other is based on form and personally I like Lonie or even Parker

I think it's a mix and match Skeptic, a work in progress. Butler, to me, impressed in round 1, Lonie deserves chances, Gresh needs to escape the hype and put daylight between him and the others. Parker could very well be this mythical X factor. Kent is like Superman's alter ego, easily forgotten.

[samuraisaint]

I couldn't give she ite who we play and when we play .
I just want the team to make the most of every opportunity and kick effing goals .
Skills by foot were shocking against North and cost us the game .
If we don't change this we aint going nowhere .

If I could like this post twice I would.

[Jacks Back]

I just hope we step away from the too many small model.

IMO it’s a loser strategy unless the majority of those smells are elite
Gresh, Lonie, Butler, Kent = too many too limited, easily edged out under pressure players.

There’s room only for 2. One of them Gresh, the other is based on form and personally I like Lonie or even Parker

Are we talking KFC or fish and chips or a bit more highbrow?

[St Plugger]

I just hope we step away from the too many small model.

IMO it’s a loser strategy unless the majority of those smells are elite
Gresh, Lonie, Butler, Kent = too many too limited, easily edged out under pressure players.

There’s room only for 2. One of them Gresh, the other is based on form and personally I like Lonie or even Parker

Definitely leave Kent out and bring Battle into the forward line. I also like Parker for his X factor, as he can play around the pack, but also take a great grab.

[saynta]

I just hope we step away from the too many small model.

IMO it’s a loser strategy unless the majority of those smells are elite
Gresh, Lonie, Butler, Kent = too many too limited, easily edged out under pressure players.

There’s room only for 2. One of them Gresh, the other is based on form and personally I like Lonie or even Parker

Definitely leave Kent out and bring Battle into the forward line. I also like Parker for his X factor, as he can play around the pack, but also take a great grab.

Yep. Need to keep playing Battle or lose him come years end.

[saintbob]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

[shanegrambeau]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

I can’t help suspecting they knew the season might fold. How else could they have collapsed in a heap? Fitness? Surely not! Poor on field match -ups? Hill just switches off and can’t be arsed? Something had to be going on.


Carlisle? I hope he’s right mentally and physically, he’s too much of a waste not to play.

[mad saint guy]

Certainly shows there's competition for certain spots.
I understand the desire to get Paton in, he is quality.

I want to see more of the Marshall / Ryder combo, I believe it has benefits, especially as King finds his feet.

I liked Butler's tackling and pace, I think he's part of the 22. Lonie deserves a shot, at this point. Parker & Hind are certainly next in line.

Paton very easily slides under the radar but the fact is he just keeps on performing well whenever given an opportunity. Super versatile, good skills, athletic and has confidence in his ability. He was one of our few clean players in round one. Seems a bit like a better version of a young Jack Newnes.

I understand the inclination to go with Butler (experience, pressure) and Lonie (more shots on goal than other smalls), but I just think that those players have limitations that will prevent them from ever truly making it in a strong team. Butler doesn't get enough of the footy and doesn't really have any unique weapons, while Lonie is too small and slow. Both are very much known quantities at this point. Parker is the best physical specimen of our small forwards and probably has the most room for improvement - can crumb, can mark, provides good pressure and can have an impact further up the ground. I rate Hind very highly because he's a genuine line-breaker and he's so clean and clever with the ball.

Dan Butler, 49 games played
2019 avg: 9 disposals, 0.7 goals, 2 marks, 3.9 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 3.1 score involvements, 62% efficiency

Jack Lonie, 64 games played
2019 avg: 13.6 disposals, 1 goal, 3.9 marks, 2.5 tackles, 0.2 goal assists, 4.7 score involvements, 60% efficiency

Nick Hind, 11 games played
2019 avg: 10.9 disposals, 1 goal, 2 marks, 1.9 tackles, 0.5 goal assists, 4.8 score involvements, 67% efficiency

Matt Parker, 17 games played
2019 avg: 10.6 disposals, 0.9 goals, 2.9 marks, 3 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 4.1 score involvements, 66% efficiency


From these stats, Butler was clearly the worst performed of the group in 2019. Lonie got the footy more but is also the most experienced, while Parker and Hind matched or outperformed the two more experienced forwards in a variety of areas. Given their physical weapons and solid first year performance I don't know why we wouldn't persevere with Parker and Hind to see what improvement can come. Sticking with ordinary known quantities is why we've been so terrible for so long.


With regards to the Marshall/Ryder combo - I think the fact that King is in the side is exactly why we need to go with Battle over Ryder. Ryder is not a good forward, and King is going to be a slow burn. Battle is a better forward than both right now, and I think we need him in there as a genuine target to take pressure off of King as he develops. Having a lumbering Ryder sitting inside 50 will make us too immobile and predictable.

[saintspremiers]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

I can’t help suspecting they knew the season might fold. How else could they have collapsed in a heap? Fitness? Surely not! Poor on field match -ups? Hill just switches off and can’t be arsed? Something had to be going on.


Carlisle? I hope he’s right mentally and physically, he’s too much of a waste not to play.

I tend to agree. The club would never publicly announce this even if it was true.

[The_Dud]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

I can’t help suspecting they knew the season might fold. How else could they have collapsed in a heap? Fitness? Surely not! Poor on field match -ups? Hill just switches off and can’t be arsed? Something had to be going on.


Carlisle? I hope he’s right mentally and physically, he’s too much of a waste not to play.

I tend to agree. The club would never publicly announce this even if it was true.

But the North players would have known the exact same thing?

[skeptic]

Certainly shows there's competition for certain spots.
I understand the desire to get Paton in, he is quality.

I want to see more of the Marshall / Ryder combo, I believe it has benefits, especially as King finds his feet.

I liked Butler's tackling and pace, I think he's part of the 22. Lonie deserves a shot, at this point. Parker & Hind are certainly next in line.

Paton very easily slides under the radar but the fact is he just keeps on performing well whenever given an opportunity. Super versatile, good skills, athletic and has confidence in his ability. He was one of our few clean players in round one. Seems a bit like a better version of a young Jack Newnes.

I understand the inclination to go with Butler (experience, pressure) and Lonie (more shots on goal than other smalls), but I just think that those players have limitations that will prevent them from ever truly making it in a strong team. Butler doesn't get enough of the footy and doesn't really have any unique weapons, while Lonie is too small and slow. Both are very much known quantities at this point. Parker is the best physical specimen of our small forwards and probably has the most room for improvement - can crumb, can mark, provides good pressure and can have an impact further up the ground. I rate Hind very highly because he's a genuine line-breaker and he's so clean and clever with the ball.

Dan Butler, 49 games played
2019 avg: 9 disposals, 0.7 goals, 2 marks, 3.9 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 3.1 score involvements, 62% efficiency

Jack Lonie, 64 games played
2019 avg: 13.6 disposals, 1 goal, 3.9 marks, 2.5 tackles, 0.2 goal assists, 4.7 score involvements, 60% efficiency

Nick Hind, 11 games played
2019 avg: 10.9 disposals, 1 goal, 2 marks, 1.9 tackles, 0.5 goal assists, 4.8 score involvements, 67% efficiency

Matt Parker, 17 games played
2019 avg: 10.6 disposals, 0.9 goals, 2.9 marks, 3 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 4.1 score involvements, 66% efficiency


From these stats, Butler was clearly the worst performed of the group in 2019. Lonie got the footy more but is also the most experienced, while Parker and Hind matched or outperformed the two more experienced forwards in a variety of areas. Given their physical weapons and solid first year performance I don't know why we wouldn't persevere with Parker and Hind to see what improvement can come. Sticking with ordinary known quantities is why we've been so terrible for so long.


With regards to the Marshall/Ryder combo - I think the fact that King is in the side is exactly why we need to go with Battle over Ryder. Ryder is not a good forward, and King is going to be a slow burn. Battle is a better forward than both right now, and I think we need him in there as a genuine target to take pressure off of King as he develops. Having a lumbering Ryder sitting inside 50 will make us too immobile and predictable.

Hind reeks of promising young player that will largely play in the reserves for 4 years getting 3-4 games a year, limited game time, in a range of positions...
Half the forum wanting him to play more, the other half saying he’s not good enough and never will be

Meanwhile a guy like Kent or Butler will play 40 odd games in the same period without ever cementing themselves in the team

It’s an outcome that unfortunately we’ve become all too accustomed to with this club.

[Ghost Like]

Sticking with ordinary known quantities is why we've been so terrible for so long.
[/highlight]

With regards to the Marshall/Ryder combo - I think the fact that King is in the side is exactly why we need to go with Battle over Ryder. Ryder is not a good forward, and King is going to be a slow burn. Battle is a better forward than both right now, and I think we need him in there as a genuine target to take pressure off of King as he develops. Having a lumbering Ryder sitting inside 50 will make us too immobile and predictable.

Such a great line MSG. Sums up the clubs Achilles heel.

I agree with your assessments and possible upsides of Parker and Hind. In terms of referencing 2019 figures for Butler, it was a year he was on the outer. His pre season was obviously very good. Someone with his pace and thirst to tackle is vital, he needs to average 1 to 2 goals and becomes irreplaceable. Lonie is clever but limited. We will be better once Parker and Hind overtake him.

Ryder's ruck work is more valuable than Battle's unknown forward abilities. I say unknown because he's played his best football for us as a backman. At best he's a swingman, maybe a point of difference on a wing. He's quick with good endurance but runs on tram tracks. A beautiful kick, so I do understand where you are coming from. I'd love to see him make CHF his own but needs to show he's capable, fingers crossed he does.

[saynta]

If list sizes are cut to 35 next year, I'm betting that Hind, Butler and Parker will be some of the first players out the door. Or at least two of them will be.

[Saintmatt]

If list sizes are cut to 35 next year, I'm betting that Hind, Butler and Parker will be some of the first players out the door. Or at least two of them will be.

I can guarantee you that it won't be Butler. Ratten specifically targeted him for his running power and all 'round forward skills (offence and defence). In particular - Ratten is quoted as saying he's at St Kilda as they need a forward to push up to the wings (to create an outnumber mid) and then rip back when we gain possession.

I like Jack Lonie but he doesn't make the opposition pay when he has the footy (and due to his size, it utterly useless when he doesn't have it). Relatively speaking, he gets a lot of it but simply misses to many goals and given (1) his endurance running isn't great and (2) he's unable to stick a tackle. That makes him very one dimensional.

Butler on the other hand was an extremely effective member of a Premiership team and was simply pushed out by the Tiges having an abundance of similar players (Ross, Graham, Baker, Castagna, Bolton). A couple of my Richmond mates regularly tell me that we got a serious small forward for peanuts.

[Yorkeys]

Can contracted players be cut, I wonder. It might be that the culling would come from players coming off contract in 2021 and that seems highly problematic. Hopefully AFL will hold off any cull as things didn't reach the dire levels predicted.

[The_Dud]

How could they possibly cull the list down to that many and still draft new talent? They’d have to delist 15 players?

[Jacks Back]

Dan Butler, 49 games played
2019 avg: 9 disposals, 0.7 goals, 2 marks, 3.9 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 3.1 score involvements, 62% efficiency

Jack Lonie, 64 games played
2019 avg: 13.6 disposals, 1 goal, 3.9 marks, 2.5 tackles, 0.2 goal assists, 4.7 score involvements, 60% efficiency

Nick Hind, 11 games played
2019 avg: 10.9 disposals, 1 goal, 2 marks, 1.9 tackles, 0.5 goal assists, 4.8 score involvements, 67% efficiency

Matt Parker, 17 games played
2019 avg: 10.6 disposals, 0.9 goals, 2.9 marks, 3 tackles, 0.4 goal assists, 4.1 score involvements, 66% efficiency

How many frees did Parker give away though? He's like a bull at a gate. Being aggressive is one thing, but giving up stupid frees is something else. I'd say Lonie has the most frees for as he seems to suck the umpires in a bit, although they'll soon cotton onto that.

[samuraisaint]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

Hear Hear!

[samuraisaint]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

I can’t help suspecting they knew the season might fold. How else could they have collapsed in a heap? Fitness? Surely not! Poor on field match -ups? Hill just switches off and can’t be arsed? Something had to be going on.


Carlisle? I hope he’s right mentally and physically, he’s too much of a waste not to play.

I tend to agree. The club would never publicly announce this even if it was true.

But the North players would have known the exact same thing?

Exactly - too many excuses have been made for that match for mine. Changes need to be made to that line up. Back line was all wrong. Stevie Wonder would've seen that from the start.

[Yorkeys]

Third quarter would have really disappointed Coach Ratten but players may get benefit of the doubt due to circumstances. Expected to have a club explanation for Battle not playing and a couple of other eyebrow raising selections. In the first half accepted the selectors were geniuses but then dejavu took over.

[shanegrambeau]

Will Carlisle, Webster, Battle, Savage, Langlands
Sinclair, Hind, Coffield or Parker be in the running for Round 2.

The way we folded up like a deck of cards in Round 1 still pisses me off, so hopefully there will be several changes

I can’t help suspecting they knew the season might fold. How else could they have collapsed in a heap? Fitness? Surely not! Poor on field match -ups? Hill just switches off and can’t be arsed? Something had to be going on.


Carlisle? I hope he’s right mentally and physically, he’s too much of a waste not to play.

I tend to agree. The club would never publicly announce this even if it was true.

But the North players would have known the exact same thing?

Exactly - too many excuses have been made for that match for mine. Changes need to be made to that line up. Back line was all wrong. Stevie Wonder would've seen that from the start.

Yep, but a runner might have told the Saints first and the three quarter time speech would be easier on Royce Shaw. He just says something like, ‘these Saints are folding, don’t let me see any one of u mother fkrs even think about it’...our fans need this. Shinbone bs and all that. If the Saints got into a collective mind set it is easy to see how one team smells of defeat and the other senses an opportunity and pounces. Individuals in that North side are keen. We have a few people who have had seen it all done that...and they IMHO are prime candidates for dropping off. Not their fault. Oh...and yes, I am being highly speculative,but damn it...so pissed off.

[mad saint guy]

How many frees did Parker give away though? He's like a bull at a gate. Being aggressive is one thing, but giving up stupid frees is something else. I'd say Lonie has the most frees for as he seems to suck the umpires in a bit, although they'll soon cotton onto that.

Parker averaged 1.2 frees for and 1.2 frees against. Granted 1.2 frees against is a bit high, but I think with more composure and training he can reel that in. Don't really mind it if it's from one overly aggressive/late tackle or bump that has the opposition scared for the rest of the game though.

[Yorkeys]

Getting quite excited about this match. Was excited about North match as well, but. Overtime excitement and hope has become excitement and trepidation. We beat the Dogs well last year immediately post Richo but I think Bevo will have learned from that and I'm concerned our backline, which looked like it had not met before during the second half retreat against North, will need photos and bios to recognise each other and voice up next week. Can we match it with Bont, Naughton and Johanisson, well Ratts, can we - how? It is encouraging Dogs were hopeless against the Pies in R1, whenever that was so long ago; that hopelessness give me hope.

[skeptic]

Getting quite excited about this match. Was excited about North match as well, but. Overtime excitement and hope has become excitement and trepidation. We beat the Dogs well last year immediately post Richo but I think Bevo will have learned from that and I'm concerned our backline, which looked like it had not met before during the second half retreat against North, will need photos and bios to recognise each other and voice up next week. Can we match it with Bont, Naughton and Johanisson, well Ratts, can we - how? It is encouraging Dogs were hopeless against the Pies in R1, whenever that was so long ago; that hopelessness give me hope.

I reckon if we pick a balanced team, we’ll win rather comfortably

[desertsaint]

Having a hard time getting excited about the team or the coach. Hopefully the lads can get a win and start the ball rolling. The doggies also coming off an embarrassing loss so it should be on.