Brendon Goddard says .....

[Gershwin]

From the Sunday Herald Sun:

" Brendon Goddard is convinced behind-the-scenes bickering, the feuds and the bitter fallout with Grant Thomas and Ross Lyon have cost the Saints dearly in their quest to end a 54-year premiership drought.
Brendon Goddard says a “comedy of errors” made by past St Kilda boards and administrations may have cost long-suffering fans that elusive second premiership.
Goddard revealed to the Sunday Herald Sun's Sacked podcast he believes coaches and players were sometimes collateral damage in a series of ego-driven, bad decisions and poorly managed exits.

He retains exceptionally close relationships with his former teammates and holds no grudges about the club now, but has been left frustrated by what happened.
“It was a comedy of errors from people in high places at the Saints for so long,” Goddard said.
“(There were) egos … relationships couldn't be mended and fallouts.”
The Saints lost two coaches in controversial circumstances during Goddard's time at the club when Grant Thomas and Ross Lyon both departed after finals campaigns.
He also questioned the decision to move on key players who would have preferred to stay.
Goddard is convinced behind-the-scenes bickering and feuds hindered the quest for a companion to the club’s sole flag, won in 1966.

St Kilda played in three Grand Finals in Goddard's 10 seasons at the club – one ended in a dramatic draw and another with a heartbreakingly two-goal loss.
He laments the club's failure to secure Lyon on a long-term deal in late 2011, thereby allowing Fremantle the opportunity to poach the coach on a $3.2 million four-year deal just days after the club bowed out of the finals.
Goddard said the mismanagement that led to Lyon’s departure tore the heart out of the team.
"Was he arguably one of the best coaches in the competition? He should have been rewarded for it," Goddard said.
"I know from my experience with the Saints, all the BS (bulls-it) behind the scenes and the deceiving things that get done to push guys out of the footy club.
"Now looking back, it was the same kind of thing with Rossy.
"If they wanted to sign him – as we all did as players – (they could have) halfway through the season. They wouldn't have let it get to the stage where someone wanted to come knocking on the door because there was a bit of vulnerability there.
"It was so unsettling. The relationship he had with all of us (was so strong) … from the moment it happened, it doesn't matter whether it is Scotty Watters or whoever. We are going to be off-side straight up because of the way the club dealt with the situation.

"It had to have an effect on the players."
St Kilda hasn't played in a finals series since Lyon's departure and is now on its third coach since.
Goddard's first AFL coach, Grant Thomas, was sacked in the days after the club's 2006 elimination final loss to Melbourne.

It emerged that a bitter dispute between Thomas and club president Rod Butterss was at the heart of the sacking, along with the coach's withering attacks on AFL headquarters.
"I don't know all of it, but I know a fair bit of it now," Goddard said.
"I was a bit younger in the Thommo era, (but) a few of the older blokes would understand more.
"I've obviously heard one side of the story (from Thomas)."

Brendon Goddard, one of the stars of St Kilda’s heartbreaking 2010 near-miss, has revealed for the first time his team was “mentally fried” in the Grand Final replay.
In a fresh twist on the Saints’ inability to back up their Grand Final draw intensity seven days earlier against a seemingly fresher Collingwood, Goddard said the despair of what might have been in the dying moments of the previous week and a devastating loss to Geelong in the 2009 playoff had scarred the team.
“We were cooked mentally,” Goddard told the Sunday Herald Sun’s Sacked podcast.
“It goes back to a year earlier in a Grand Final losing, (then) playing in another Grand Final (in 2010) and drawing, and thinking, ‘This is never going to happen’.
“If we hadn’t lost in 2009 – or if we hadn’t even made the Grand Final (that year) – we would probably … have won the drawn Grand Final or (at least) had a better chance in the replay.
“(But) we were mentally fried.”

Goddard put the Saints a goal ahead of Collingwood in the first 2010 Grand Final just before the start of time-on in the last quarter after he took a towering mark near the top of the goalsquare.
He conceded he and his teammates thought St Kilda had game won at that stage, given their momentum.
The Magpies hit back with a Travis Cloke goal six minutes later before a Lenny Hayes behind levelled the scores, only after the ball bounced at right angles, depriving Stephen Milne with what would have been a certain goal.
Goddard remains convinced the Saints would have won the game – and the flag – if extra time had been played.
“I’ve only heard (then Magpies coach) Mick Malthouse and Pendles (Scott Pendlebury) say they thought they would have won if there was extra time,” he said.
“Things can happen and Mick can get the group back together and reset them.
“But if there was any more time on the clock, we were going to win. We were trying to win, we were still playing footy and we knew we had the momentum.’

The AFL changed the provision for drawn Grand Finals before the 2016 season, meaning extra time will always follow a drawn game.
Goddard said the signs the Saints could break the club’s premiership drought were good throughout the week leading up to game day of the replay.

But as soon as the game started, he noticed how flat the team was, having been asked to climb one mountain too many.
“(I didn’t feel it) until during the game,” he said. “You are trying to trick yourself (by saying) ‘we are going to win this’, but you could tell we were a split second off.
“That’s all mental.
“We did everything physically and mentally to freshen ourselves up, but we were just cooked.”

Goddard swiftly dismissed as “bullsh-t” claims the Saints’ decision to bypass the Grand Final dinner on the night of the draw cost them the premiership a week later.
Some have used Collingwood’s decision to attend their function as a telling moment in the replay’s build-up.
“That’s BS,” he said.

Goddard was arguably the Saints’ best player across the two 2010 Grand Finals."

[Sanctorum]

A great insight into the club in the years that they were in strong contention to win one or more premierships.

I always rated BG as one of the best utility players to ever wear the red white & black, a natural leader and couldn't believe that he was refused a new deal when he was at his peak aged 27, a regrettable failure by the club at the end of 2012 as he went on to become one of Essendon's best for another 129 games.

Whilst many supporters, including myself, are not enamoured of Ross Lyon, it is patently clear that he had the respect and support of the players to stay on. But that's another story....

This tale once more underscores the sorry state of management of our club that has been repeated time and time again over the decades. On the other hand, I believe that the current Board and administration is back on track and will see the club build a winning culture and achieve success in the next 3-4 years.

[skeptic]

Post the RL years. I think we made some bad decisions about which players to keep and which ones to let go. Reckon we would have been better off keeping guys like BJ and moving on a Schneider or a Gilbert sooner.
Was a good leader and pbly deserved the opportunity to be captain for a few years

[saintspremiers]

So he thinks they would’ve won if there was extra time, yet concedes they got ahead of themselves after the BJ goal with still plenty of time left.

I reckon we were 50/50 had there been extra time. We had plenty of chances to ice the game in that period after the BJ goal and failed miserably

[Spinner]

Allowing Goddard to leave (forcing him out for a FA draft pick) is one of the worst list management decisions at the Saints over the last 20 years...

[saintspremiers]

Allowing Goddard to leave (forcing him out for a FA draft pick) is one of the worst list management decisions at the Saints over the last 20 years...

Hard to argue that one.

At the time we thought he was just being greedy - but given his age fair enough

[saintspremiers]

Allowing Goddard to leave (forcing him out for a FA draft pick) is one of the worst list management decisions at the Saints over the last 20 years...

Hard to argue that one.

At the time we thought he was just being greedy - but given his age fair enough.

At least Tom Lee got us pick 26 for pick 13 - that was utter stupidity giving away that much for an unknown WAFL player.

[Scollop]

It’s the board of directors and the administrators fault that the players were “mentally fried”....yeah sure Brendan!!

Maybe the CEO or the head of apparel or the bootstudder were to blame for the way the players felt in 2011 after going so close in 2009 and 2010. ?? Seriously Brendan?

You can’t go again unless you refresh with new ideas and new voices. What changed in 2011 to get the team motivated? Ohhh...that’s right, we recruited Dean Polo!! The fact of the matter is that perhaps there were negative influences and people in leadership positions who needed to take a break from their responsibilities or maybe perhaps Ross Lyon was lacking in certain elements of ....coaching

Or....maybe if Rossy had done his Harvard courses over the 2010 summer things might have been different.....? Maybe we should get him back to St Kilda so that he can go really close again and blame everybody else if he fails. One thing I got from the video...https://www.dicksonfilms.com.au/the-challenge ...early on in the first 2 minutes, was that he wasn’t even confident of winning in 2010 ‘because Collingwood were so strong’!! He knew the Saints would ‘give super effort’ but ...here’s his doubts coming out about his own ability perhaps...he ‘wasn’t sure we’d get close based on form’ How’s that for inner confidence and belief?

As far as the salary cap issues are concerned, these had developed after Ross departed but it was under his watch when they had been established. And I suppose if it was ok for their messiah to take the money and run and not have any regard to club or ‘loyalty’ to the club that gave him the opportunity, then why should any player be any different. I heard Nick Riewoldt say after he retired that neither the board nor the CEO went to him to discuss a pay cut to his personal salary, so that perhaps BJ could have stayed. How about this Nick; why didn’t you volunteer to discuss it with them?

I know Ross Lyon was respected and liked by his senior players (and admired for his ability and achievements) but you can’t on the one hand praise the coach and on the other tell us that the players were mentally fried.


I call BS on what Brendan has written about the club and especially putting others under the bus other than the player leadership and the coaches. If Ross Lyon was unable to get his charges looking forward instead of backward and if there were issues that needed addressing (including the hard decision to change the captaincy) then it should have been done.

[Sanctorum]

You make some really valid points in this summary Scollop. As has been said many times before, the debate on Ross Lyon's merits as a coach will go on forever.

It is said that players develop very strong emotional bonds with their coaches and they are not necessarily particularly objective in their assessments of their mentors, that's common in many professional sporting organisations. Conversely players who lack confidence in their coach can consign them to oblivion, as happened to RL's successor Scott Watters.

I'll always remember my experience in 2005 when I paid a king's ransom to be "honorary bootstudder" when the Saints played the Brisbane Lions at the Gabba, the intensity of the focus between GT and the players was mind boggling, his uncompromising demands on the players to perform their roles was massive, the level of concentration really impressive.

[saynta]

I saw it for myself actually. I watched them before they broke through the banner. Roo took the biggest sigh you ever saw then dropped his shoulders. It was like soldiers being forced out of a trench at gun point.

I knew then we were f***ed and that was before a ball had been kicked in anger.

[takeaway]

It’s the board of directors and the administrators fault that the players were “mentally fried”....yeah sure Brendan!!

Maybe the CEO or the head of apparel or the bootstudder were to blame for the way the players felt in 2011 after going so close in 2009 and 2010. ?? Seriously Brendan?

You can’t go again unless you refresh with new ideas and new voices. What changed in 2011 to get the team motivated? Ohhh...that’s right, we recruited Dean Polo!! The fact of the matter is that perhaps there were negative influences and people in leadership positions who needed to take a break from their responsibilities or maybe perhaps Ross Lyon was lacking in certain elements of ....coaching

Or....maybe if Rossy had done his Harvard courses over the 2010 summer things might have been different.....? Maybe we should get him back to St Kilda so that he can go really close again and blame everybody else if he fails. One thing I got from the video...https://www.dicksonfilms.com.au/the-challenge ...early on in the first 2 minutes, was that he wasn’t even confident of winning in 2010 ‘because Collingwood were so strong’!! He knew the Saints would ‘give super effort’ but ...here’s his doubts coming out about his own ability perhaps...he ‘wasn’t sure we’d get close based on form’ How’s that for inner confidence and belief?

As far as the salary cap issues are concerned, these had developed after Ross departed but it was under his watch when they had been established. And I suppose if it was ok for their messiah to take the money and run and not have any regard to club or ‘loyalty’ to the club that gave him the opportunity, then why should any player be any different. I heard Nick Riewoldt say after he retired that neither the board nor the CEO went to him to discuss a pay cut to his personal salary, so that perhaps BJ could have stayed. How about this Nick; why didn’t you volunteer to discuss it with them?

I know Ross Lyon was respected and liked by his senior players (and admired for his ability and achievements) but you can’t on the one hand praise the coach and on the other tell us that the players were mentally fried.


I call BS on what Brendan has written about the club and especially putting others under the bus other than the player leadership and the coaches. If Ross Lyon was unable to get his charges looking forward instead of backward and if there were issues that needed addressing (including the hard decision to change the captaincy) then it should have been done.

I can't see anywhere in the article where BJ blames the administration for the players being "mentally fried" in the GF replay. He does say the finals campaign in 2009 and the devastating loss in the GF, then the despair of the drawn GF, led players to wonder whether it was ever going to happen, and they came out flat in the replay. Two very close GF "losses" could well do that to the players, makes sense to me. The article makes no mention of the administration in that context.

BJ does say that errors made by Saints admins in his 10 years hindered the quest for a second flag, and no doubt that had an unsettling effect on the players over that period, but he is not relating those events to the GF replay, different section of the article.

I think I will take BJs view over the what I think are illogical assumptions.

[Joffa Burns]

It’s the board of directors and the administrators fault that the players were “mentally fried”....yeah sure Brendan!!

Maybe the CEO or the head of apparel or the bootstudder were to blame for the way the players felt in 2011 after going so close in 2009 and 2010. ?? Seriously Brendan?

You can’t go again unless you refresh with new ideas and new voices. What changed in 2011 to get the team motivated? Ohhh...that’s right, we recruited Dean Polo!! The fact of the matter is that perhaps there were negative influences and people in leadership positions who needed to take a break from their responsibilities or maybe perhaps Ross Lyon was lacking in certain elements of ....coaching

Or....maybe if Rossy had done his Harvard courses over the 2010 summer things might have been different.....? Maybe we should get him back to St Kilda so that he can go really close again and blame everybody else if he fails. One thing I got from the video...https://www.dicksonfilms.com.au/the-challenge ...early on in the first 2 minutes, was that he wasn’t even confident of winning in 2010 ‘because Collingwood were so strong’!! He knew the Saints would ‘give super effort’ but ...here’s his doubts coming out about his own ability perhaps...he ‘wasn’t sure we’d get close based on form’ How’s that for inner confidence and belief?

As far as the salary cap issues are concerned, these had developed after Ross departed but it was under his watch when they had been established. And I suppose if it was ok for their messiah to take the money and run and not have any regard to club or ‘loyalty’ to the club that gave him the opportunity, then why should any player be any different. I heard Nick Riewoldt say after he retired that neither the board nor the CEO went to him to discuss a pay cut to his personal salary, so that perhaps BJ could have stayed. How about this Nick; why didn’t you volunteer to discuss it with them?

I know Ross Lyon was respected and liked by his senior players (and admired for his ability and achievements) but you can’t on the one hand praise the coach and on the other tell us that the players were mentally fried.


I call BS on what Brendan has written about the club and especially putting others under the bus other than the player leadership and the coaches. If Ross Lyon was unable to get his charges looking forward instead of backward and if there were issues that needed addressing (including the hard decision to change the captaincy) then it should have been done.

You are hilarious scollop, you call the comments of BJ who was on the inside for 10 years BS, because it doesn't sit well with your vendetta against the former coach.

Apparently you know the real truth, don't you scollop!

This post is even more ridiculous than the post in which you bemoaned your opinion Ross was appointed coach out of nepotism given his relationships to Walls and Roos, whilst totally ignoring the fact Ross served a 10 year apprenticeship as an assistant coach.

Meanwhile you hero worship GT who got the senior role purely through nepotism as his drug addict best mate president gave the inexperienced coach the keys to the Ferrari though the bloke couldn't drive for crap. At least GT paid back his nepotism mate when he traded our first round pick for Jim watts son though I don't think he was as swift in paying back the druggo the cash he borrowed.

[Scollop]

Enjoy your ‘holiday’ Joffa. Try just putting across your opinion without all the personal crap

I don’t have a vendetta against Ross. I just think that the sycophants on here needed a different POV and a different perspective back in 2011 when I joined the forum. The hero worship and adulation was making me nauseous

Your second last paragraph is your interpretation of things. I have NEVER claimed Ross didn’t deserve the senior role at St Kilda. The thread where you first made this accusation is still pretty fresh.

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p1844967

Go back and reread it without your bias and pettiness.

[Joffa Burns]

Enjoy your ‘holiday’ Joffa. Try just putting across your opinion without all the personal crap

I don’t have a vendetta against Ross. I just think that the sycophants on here needed a different POV and a different perspective back in 2011 when I joined the forum. The hero worship and adulation was making me nauseous

Your second last paragraph is your interpretation of things. I have NEVER claimed Ross didn’t deserve the senior role at St Kilda. The thread where you first made this accusation is still pretty fresh.

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p1844967

Go back and reread it without your bias and pettiness.

Not on holiday scollop, just lock down

I think the below quotes on Lyon would challenge your statement highlighted in yellow:. You have a pattern of referring to Lyon as lucky to get a senior gig and constantly refer to his mates Walls & Roos being behind his appointments and myth of being a great coach.

You state a guy who did a 10 year apprenticeship as an assistant coach was lucky to get a senior role, walked into two ready made finals teams and his 2 mates in Walls and Roos played a large part in his success in getting the senior gig at St Kilda.

And BTW, I still think BJ has a little bit more of an understanding about what transpired in his time at the club than a bitter old supporter with a personal vendetta against a former coach.

He was in the right place at the right time and his 2 mates in Robert Walls and Paul Roos played a large part in his success in getting yhe senior gig.

History will ultimately judge his legacy at the 2 footy clubs that he was lucky enough to have been given a senior gig

Who is the luckiest ever coach to have walked into two ready made finals capable and finals experienced sides, choc full of talent...this bloke hasn’t won a flag and yet he’s still considered to be one of the best coaches going round in the last decade...especially by fans of his former club?

[shanegrambeau]

You’ve got a point there Scollop. If the players were fried, the coach has to wear some of it.

[mad saint guy]

Post the RL years. I think we made some bad decisions about which players to keep and which ones to let go. Reckon we would have been better off keeping guys like BJ and moving on a Schneider or a Gilbert sooner.
Was a good leader and pbly deserved the opportunity to be captain for a few years

Yep holding onto Goddard, Dal Santo and McEvoy would have made us a much stronger, more stable team in the post-Lyon era. Offloading Gram, Jones, Gilbert and Schneider along with the retirements of Hayes, Milne, Kosi and Blake would have been enough to fix the salary cap situation and we probably would have cracked the finals in 2015/2016.

I'd say this team makes the 8 in 2016

B: Geary, Fisher, Webster
HB: Roberton, Dempster, Savage
C: Goddard, Armitage, Montagna
HF: Billings, Riewoldt, Weller
F: Membrey, Bruce, Gresham

Foll: McEvoy, Steven, Dal Santo
Int: Ross, Newnes, Sinclair, Acres

Obviously not all of the draft picks that contributed to players selected in that team would have eventuated, but that team looks a hell of a lot stronger than the one that missed the 8 by percentage. Would have been a killer midfield - something that we haven't had in a decade.

[Scollop]

Enjoy your ‘holiday’ Joffa. Try just putting across your opinion without all the personal crap

I don’t have a vendetta against Ross. I just think that the sycophants on here needed a different POV and a different perspective back in 2011 when I joined the forum. The hero worship and adulation was making me nauseous

Your second last paragraph is your interpretation of things. I have NEVER claimed Ross didn’t deserve the senior role at St Kilda. The thread where you first made this accusation is still pretty fresh.

http://saintsational.net/viewtopic.php? ... 7#p1844967

Go back and reread it without your bias and pettiness.

Not on holiday scollop, just lock down

I think the below quotes on Lyon would challenge your statement highlighted in yellow:. You have a pattern of referring to Lyon as lucky to get a senior gig and constantly refer to his mates Walls & Roos being behind his appointments and myth of being a great coach.

You state a guy who did a 10 year apprenticeship as an assistant coach was lucky to get a senior role, walked into two ready made finals teams and his 2 mates in Walls and Roos played a large part in his success in getting the senior gig at St Kilda.

And BTW, I still think BJ has a little bit more of an understanding about what transpired in his time at the club than a bitter old supporter with a personal vendetta against a former coach.

He was in the right place at the right time and his 2 mates in Robert Walls and Paul Roos played a large part in his success in getting yhe senior gig.

History will ultimately judge his legacy at the 2 footy clubs that he was lucky enough to have been given a senior gig

Who is the luckiest ever coach to have walked into two ready made finals capable and finals experienced sides, choc full of talent...this bloke hasn’t won a flag and yet he’s still considered to be one of the best coaches going round in the last decade...especially by fans of his former club?

I certainly have a pattern of not agreeing that he was a ‘great’ coach.

I certainly have a pattern of rebuttals against the sycophants who believed in his selfish scapegoating of players or his inability to take responsibility for the club falling short in 2009/2010.

I certainly have a pattern of trying to understand the ramifications of his legacy with the Saints and trying to understand how his failings (and the teams losses in those Grand Finals) affected the group in 2011 and the legacy of his whole time with us.

Why don’t you also quote about 10 other posts of mine that were positive in regards to Ross where I’ve acknowledged his work rate and also acknowledged his overall career in footy as an assistant and as a senior coach?

In any case...if anyone with half a brain wants to dissect the 3 sentences and look at the topics and threads that were being discussed, all statements are subject to each reader’s individual interpretation. Obviously...you want to taint me and twist the argument...you want to use them as a slogan a bit like the way your Tory mates operate

In reference to your statement that I have a ‘pattern’ of referring to him as being lucky to land the senior gig you needed to go back to 2018 to find a couple of other throwaway comments that I made during debates about Lyon. Contrast those 3 sentences you plucked....with the 1000 odd posts where I have referred to mistakes made by Lyon or the hundreds of posts I made disagreeing with Lyon’s footy philosophy.

In the context of the thousands of posts from myself since 2011, most of which have been about criticising Ross Lyon during his days as a Saints coach (including my first ever post on here) you’ve plucked a very small sample and concluded there’s a pattern. You’d make a good politician

[Vazelos]

This is what I know from very good sources.
Michael Nettlefold blew it re negotiating with Lyon you dont let a coach with that much currency to be out of contract and leave the club exposed.
Similar to Plugger who lost money in a bad investment so did Lyon so he took the money & ran the cash was important to him & the new deal we offered was not as attractive.
Gt/Butteress era ended up farcical they concocted to do their best to destabilize the best list we have had for decades. Its been well documented the character flaws of both of them they started off so well but they blew it.
What is the underlying issue here?
Weak administration.
Nettlefold was not managed well 7 was a self serving flog from my information & GT did what he want like he was running his family business and no one managed him & we all know what he is like.

[skeptic]

Am I remembering this correctly?

I was under the impression that Lyon still had a year to run on his contract... hence his use of the contract clause

[Ghost Like]

Am I remembering this correctly?

I was under the impression that Lyon still had a year to run on his contract... hence his use of the contract clause

I thought if he & the Club agreed, another year could be triggered.

[SydneySainter]

Obviously BJ knows Lyon much better than I do, but I don’t believe Lyon was ever staying.

His history at the Saints and now the Dockers proves that he isn’t a development coach and nor does he pretend to be.

His strength is working with a list ready to have a tilt at the flag and I believe that once Lyon finally came to the conclusion that the Saints window had closed, he had little interest in being there for what he knew was going to be a LONG rebuild.

[ace]

There were 10 guys being overpaid resulting in us going to breach the salary cap.
Payments had to be moved into the next football year but with back ended contracts looming these 10 needed to take hefty pay cuts or some of them moved on.
Some got cut on behaviour excuses and others moved on.
Player/agent financial greed was placed ahead of winning a premiership.
Goddard was one of the 10.


https://www.zerohanger.com/saints-were- ... ers-32744/
https://www.sen.com.au/news/2018/04/10/ ... ottom-out/
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... f1b1247baa

[Scollop]

And no prizes for guessing which player was at the top of the tree in terms of remuneration. Where was the coach during this time? Where was the leadership from the coach...where was the leadership from the captain or the senior players at the club?

So basically, we had an administration without the balls to confront the 10....And/Or they confronted the player managers and the group of 10 were happy to keep selfishly mortgaging our future

[sunsaint]

anyone else notice that BJG has been saying a lot of stuff lately

[Nick_BlueNRG]

A great insight into the club in the years that they were in strong contention to win one or more premierships.

I always rated BG as one of the best utility players to ever wear the red white & black, a natural leader and couldn't believe that he was refused a new deal when he was at his peak aged 27, a regrettable failure by the club at the end of 2012 as he went on to become one of Essendon's best for another 129 games.

Whilst many supporters, including myself, are not enamoured of Ross Lyon, it is patently clear that he had the respect and support of the players to stay on. But that's another story....

This tale once more underscores the sorry state of management of our club that has been repeated time and time again over the decades. On the other hand, I believe that the current Board and administration is back on track and will see the club build a winning culture and achieve success in the next 3-4 years.

I wish I could share your optimism Sanctorum but I can't. The way we have trashed last years National Draft and also eaten into this years does not fill me with confidence at all. Then when you factor in the 2014 draft that was squandered on Mc Cartin and Goddard we have no hope. W will be competitive but no way will we win a flag in the next 3-4 years as you have stated above.