Saints must get Ross Lyon

[Crossy66]

Lyon went at 67% over 5 years at the saints including 90% in 2009.
They're elite numbers. I reckon the decision on Ball impacted 2 gf's and not playing max was hard.
But no matter how you look at it, he may have been ruthless and may have made the wrong call on Ball, but his record is outstanding.
Perhaps if nettlefold didnt try and get cute, he would still be in the job

[whiskers3614]

No ones talking about bringng back Alves or Jeans so what is your point.

Quite simple - "perceived" errors in GFs or selection doesn't make the coach a "tosser" or poor coach. Whether he is a tosser or not is irrelevant to his coaching - he has the record on the board. Worthy of consideration by Saints if they ditch Richo, but I would agree not much chance of coming over. A couple of ex players would be quite happy if he did.

Surely there’s no disputing Lyon being a crap human being regardless of his coaching record!

[Crossy66]

No ones talking about bringng back Alves or Jeans so what is your point.

Quite simple - "perceived" errors in GFs or selection doesn't make the coach a "tosser" or poor coach. Whether he is a tosser or not is irrelevant to his coaching - he has the record on the board. Worthy of consideration by Saints if they ditch Richo, but I would agree not much chance of coming over. A couple of ex players would be quite happy if he did.

Surely there’s no disputing Lyon being a crap human being regardless of his coaching record!

Why do you say he is a crap human being?

[whiskers3614]

Duplicity, sexual harassment for starters!

[mbogo]

What's ridiculous about all of the this is the criticism of players who were never favourites, sometimes based on racism etc. If you are talking 2009 look at the replay of kicks by Baker, Milne and Schneider .. All of whom played very much under their usual performance. Max had lost his pace for a year or more, as much as we all loved him! And what about the Geelong goal that wasn't? In 2010 that Collingwood free kick shouldn't have been paid ... Bla bla

[Crossy66]

Duplicity, sexual harassment for starters!

Is that it?
Duplicity? Nettlefold bumbled the negotiations and looked to make significant changes that RL didnt like. He has the right to make a call on that I would have thought?
Sexual harassment? Made a number of lewd comments to a female staffer - not good of course but does that one night entitle him to be labelled a crap humanbeing? On the scale of other things I have seen, I reckon that's harsh. Also, if that's the only reason you don't want him as coach, it's also a little harsh imho

[whiskers3614]

Duplicity, sexual harassment for starters!

Is that it?
Duplicity? Nettlefold bumbled the negotiations and looked to make significant changes that RL didnt like. He has the right to make a call on that I would have thought?
Sexual harassment? Made a number of lewd comments to a female staffer - not good of course but does that one night entitle him to be labelled a crap humanbeing? On the scale of other things I have seen, I reckon that's harsh. Also, if that's the only reason you don't want him as coach, it's also a little harsh imho

What about the incompetence of leaving Ball on the pine for most of second half of 09 GF
and to add insult to injury claiming he "forgot" him
or unilaterally "retiring" players on his way out the door

[whiskers3614]

Another thing I hate about him is that snarly "Malthouse-like" attitude to the media.
Malthouse as horrible as he is has 3 flags to back him up, Lyon on the other hand...

[sunsaint]

What's ridiculous about all of the this is the criticism of players who were never favourites, sometimes based on racism etc. If you are talking 2009 look at the replay of kicks by Baker, Milne and Schneider .. All of whom played very much under their usual performance. Max had lost his pace for a year or more, as much as we all loved him! And what about the Geelong goal that wasn't? In 2010 that Collingwood free kick shouldn't have been paid ... Bla bla

lets just put to bed the good luck bad luck angst - the game pans out you either grab it by the throat or you dont
But on "favourites" - I think we are clearly talking here about coaches favourites - not fans
It was very clear that Max was on the outer with RL and he preferred Dawson - and as mentioned there was a cloud over him.
But while you think the game had passed Max and he was under done
RL rushed Baker back into the GF side when he had been out for a good part of the year -but clearly a favourite of RL's - and please someone correct me if wrong - but I seem to remember Baker saying he had issues with his foot and "probably shouldnt have played"

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

Ross Lyon...this is getting embarrassing.

Get a Mitchell or Harvey or expierenced coach in Scott or Voss. End of story.

[Brunswicksainter]

Lyon lost the grand final in 2009 by picking one of the worst players in Saints history - Raphael Clarke , instead of a brilliant Saints legend Max Hughton...

I've never forgiven him since, and think he's an arrogant narcissistic pig.

Not interested

Billy Longer and Ben Long make Ralph look like Chris Judd

[mbogo]

We might as well put this to bed, we don't want him and he don't want us.

[saintadamski]

Lyon lost the grand final in 2009 by picking one of the worst players in Saints history - Raphael Clarke , instead of a brilliant Saints legend Max Hughton...

I've never forgiven him since, and think he's an arrogant narcissistic pig.

Not interested

Billy Longer and Ben Long make Ralph look like Chris Judd

The fact that the garbage we currently serve up can make anyone remember Raph in a positive light, is a serious indictment on this list.

...And Mbogo...'racism?! ... you are an utter fool. Unbelievable.

I also think Tim Elliot, Justin Plapp, and Jack Newnes were/are incredibly bad...anti Caucasian?

[Scollop]

I'm not inner sanctum but here are my truths
RL was/is a good pre game h/a coach he is not a good finals coach -no plan b
He would play his preferred list in a wheelchair than those on the outer regardless of form, and even limit and squash natural ability ie Luke Ball
After 4 years in the job at a club a coach has moulded & recruited the type of players he wants

Well said.

Lyon may be the best ever home and away coach in the history of the game in some people's opinion. BIG DEAL!!!

We couldn't kick a goal in that last quarter in 2009 in that GF against Geelong and it's because Lyon was conservative and backed his preferred players right throughout the year rather than evaluate each player on their merits and what they could offer if we made the big dance. Zero goals in the last quarter of a Grand Final sums up Ross Lyon's coaching.

Can you imagine if Lyon wanted to plan for a grand final win instead of just winning the McLelland trophy what could have been in 2009? Yes, it's great to have 18 or 19 wins in a row, but really who gives a tossbag. All we needed was a top 2 finish and after 15 wins in a row the newbie coach should not have been allowed to do as he wanted. It was pretty clear that we had the list to make it all the way to Grand Final but the team that wins usually goes in WITHOUT any passengers.

Lyon was a newbie coach. Did he plan to win it or did he just want to try and get there? Did he have a plan that was differnt to his gameplan during home and away games? Did he utilise the whole playing list and plan the lead up well so that his best players were in peak form? It's obvious he made mistakes on many fronts and I don't blame the guys who were out there on the day. Unlike Ross, we all know games are not won and lost by being in front by 3-4 goals at half time. Remember, we failed to score a major in the final quarter.

I believe he was a newbie coach and he failed to come up with a plan B and some surprises and some speed and flare in finals. We only just got over the line against Geelong in home and away so it was always going to take something special to beat them. Geelong had just competed in 2 Grand Finals in a row and they were hurting from their loss in 2008.

When your team selection is flawed plus you keep Luke Ball on the pine for more than is necessary plus you have a young speedy goal kicking forward pocket in Jack Steven and a fit young agile ball magnet bull in David Armitage sitting in the stands on a wet day in 2009 and instead, you play blokes who guard space....you have failed. Lyon held back the team of 2009 from achieving its FULL potential.

We all saw Armo and Stuv in that match against Hawthorn in Tassie in round 19. They were both very good. Check out the goals and stats for Stuv and Armo versus Eddie, Minnie and Dempster. https://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2009/19/haw-v-stk

I think it was the first and only time we saw Jack Steven in 2009. If Lyon wasn't so wound up and tight, AND so hellbent on defense and restricting the opposition, instead of trying to outscore them, he would have utilised more of the goal kicking power he had in the full list.

Can you imagine if Lyon wasn't so stubborn and had a little bit of faith in new draftees? Perhaps we may have kept Tom Lynch from leaving for Adelaide and perhaps we would have won against Geelong in that GF. Lyon continually played and backed Dempster and Eddie in front of Armo and Steven.

We let Lyon do as he pleased with wasted years at the draft and trade table. It set us back and is one of the biggest reason we are where we are today. Lyon created a situation at the club where it was all or nothing. He didn't value youth and it is quite ironic that he had speed and talent at the club, but he just could not open his mind and take a risk on backing young skinny kids to get the job done for the club in finals.

The same thing happened in 2010. We had the list and the players to compete against the best teams but we just failed to get over the line. Gameplan PLUS team selection sucked in terms of goal kicking. We were always trying to catch up or we gave the opposition a chance to pip us at the post. On the one hand the Lyon apostles believe he did a fanastic job, but I believe that he had the players and he had champion talent. He failed to get the best out of the lists he inherited.

Freo are not letting him make the same mistakes and their management and board and footy department have created opportunities for Lyon to see out his current contract. If he makes finals this year and they perform strongly in early 2020 he is guaranteed to get an extension and I think he'll stay at Fremantle

[skeptic]

Ppl always point to his W/L ratio as proof that Lyon is the master coach and IMO it’s the most misleading stat of all time.

It’s very good but the reality is he has had the luxury of being gifted 2 finals hardened, ready to win it lists.

Saints 07 had played finals for 3 years before Lyon came on and whilst one generation was finishing up (Harvey, Gehrig, Voss etc) another was entering its prime.

The season before Freo sacked Harvey... Freo were in the prelim and were primed for the big dance only to falter.
The list was there, just needed fine tuning and he did that.

Now that he’s rebuilding a team... W/L over that period suddenly isn’t so formidable... not terrible by any means but he is not the master coach ppl make out.




On the topic of 09... I think the decision to leave Hudghton out is one that gets a bit too much criticism for my liking. Just to be clear... I don’t rate Lyon highly... think his 09 GF was one of the worst displays of coaching EVER, blame him as a big contributing factor in the loss and think he picked a poor team. But...
Hudghton was really really injury prone. IIRC he strained a calf or something in his last game before the finals.

I love Max and think he is the most underrated back of his generation. I pbly would have taken a punt on him too especially in light of the gastro thing but Dawson earned his stripes and regardless of which way you went, that decision wasn’t a wholly unreasonable one

Imagine if he picked Max and he was out of the game by half time... would be regarded as one of the worst decisions of all time

[freely]

It's true, he came in when we were on the way up and jumped ship as soon as we were on the way down - stands to reason his W/L is favourable.

[twirlyhair]

Never go back to a past lover, particularly after a bad break up.

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

Never go back to a past lover, particularly after a bad break up.

Agreed. Their s*** still smells the same. Never, never works out.

[Furphy]

Is this thread a joke?

[bigcarl]

I’d sooner get GT back. At least he’s shown he can develop talent. I don’t think Ro$$co can

[asiu]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/how ... hvk49.html

[Wayne42]

He is the best coach by a mile. Offer whatever he wants just get it done. The players are there we just need
a master coach to teach them the game plan

We don't need Ross Lyin, been there and done that, and, more to the point, we definitely don't have the players to succeed.

[ace]

Stop trying to rewrite history.
The reason the Saints did not win 3 premierships was 20%.

The 20% too much that 10 players took that prevented the importation of the 2 elite players who would have got the club over the line in those 3 premierships.
Those players have names, club legends and heroes.
They start with Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hudghton, Gram ..............
It came down to a choice of money or glory, they thought they could have both, they missed out on glory.
20%

[kosifantutti]

Stop trying to rewrite history.
The reason the Saints did not win 3 premierships was 20%.

The 20% too much that 10 players took that prevented the importation of the 2 elite players who would have got the club over the line in those 3 premierships.
Those players have names, club legends and heroes.
They start with Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hudghton, Gram ..............
It came down to a choice of money or glory, they thought they could have both, they missed out on glory.
20%

Have you got any evidence for this?

Specific players we could have targeted?

Details of our player’s contracts compared to similar players at other clubs?

[ace]

Stop trying to rewrite history.
The reason the Saints did not win 3 premierships was 20%.

The 20% too much that 10 players took that prevented the importation of the 2 elite players who would have got the club over the line in those 3 premierships.
Those players have names, club legends and heroes.
They start with Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Dal Santo, Hudghton, Gram ..............
It came down to a choice of money or glory, they thought they could have both, they missed out on glory.
20%

Have you got any evidence for this?

Specific players we could have targeted?

Details of our player’s contracts compared to similar players at other clubs?

You don't get it, you don't win premierships by paying players similar amounts to those at other clubs.
You win by paying LESS and therefore being able to afford more elite players than those other clubs.