Running back into a pack... why?

[terry smith rules]

I was talking to a friend yesterday about Paddy and his backing back into the pack, and my question is why?

In the history of football how many marks have been taken by that player backing back. I'll take the under on 300, anyway the number is irrelevant, it's not many for the amount of attempts.

My point is no one needs question courage of any player , they all do things that are amazing. So why does not a coach say, stop don't take stupid risks, he knows that a pack is coming at him, but he feels some sort of obligation to keep backing even though the odds of getting the ball are miniscule

There was a point later in the game when Easton Wood clearly stops rather than go back, not even mentioned, but clearly a smart move

I am not sure if Paddy will play again but if he does, be clever and manage the risks

[Devilhead]

What if there is no pack forming ?

How do you know if you have your back to it?

Plenty of marks are taken by a player backing back into .... nothing - without him knowing what is coming

Just saying.... though I understand your point

[CQ SAINT]

It is instictive. In this case the objective is not to mark. Mark or bring the ball to ground. In most lower grades and junior football it is drummed into big forwards. Those who do it instinctively are looked at favorably. At AFL level it used to be. Now more emphasis is placed on skill. Paddy's problem here has more to do with poor execution from upfield and the poor judgement in the form of instinct.

[skeptic]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

[CQ SAINT]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

I couldnt argue with any of that.

[CQ SAINT]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

I couldnt argue with any of that.

This is a good read and sheds light on what a player with diabetes can be up against. Its lengthy but informative.
http://www.gamechangerexpert.com/diabet ... diabetics/

[skeptic]

I think the reason drafting forwards is a risk proposition is that at 18, so many of them standout because they’re able to use their size.

Paddy is pbly the best example of a guy that plays football as though he is still bigger than everyone else. And whether it’s him or the coaches, the break down IMO to this point is that he needs to be playing with the technique affords him the best chance of succeeding overall... and in his case it’s not bring bigger and stronger than everyone else.

Paddy is clearly more suited to playing a Nick Riewoldt style as opposed to a Kosi one... and Nick Riewoldt was completely about technique, fitness, using his strengths and not putting himself in needlessly dangerous positions (for the most part on the latter point).

[CQ SAINT]

It was a particularly bad piece of play.
The kick from Bruce being possibly the worst. Im not sure who the kick was intended for.
Paddy pointed wide and short, the kick went to the corner of the square and seemed to favour a Bulldogs defender, forcing Paddy to run backward and sideways. All of our players under it were forced to spoil with the possible exeption of Long who was at best, hopeful of pulling of an unlikely screamer.
This has been one of the biggest problems of the last 5 years. Roo made this s*** look much better than it was but even he was disadvantaged.
This is whatneeds to change.
There were 3 better option than the kick Bruce chose.

[saintspremiers]

So here we go again....

What’s the bet the club will be ultra cautious with Paddy and he comes back in say round 4. No doubt he will do something silly again.

But what concerns me is how the feck did he get concussion from such innocuous contact??

[CQ SAINT]

So here we go again....

What’s the bet the club will be ultra cautious with Paddy and he comes back in say round 4. No doubt he will do something silly again.

But what concerns me is how the feck did he get concussion from such innocuous contact??

Read it. It seems to cover a likely explanation for Paddy's experiences.

http://www.gamechangerexpert.com/diabet ... diabetics/

[sunsaint]

What if there is no pack forming ?

How do you know if you have your back to it?

Plenty of marks are taken by a player backing back into .... nothing - without him knowing what is coming

Just saying.... though I understand your point

you cant be talking about the latest incident - surely
because if you saw it and held the above to be true - he really is in trouble
didnt jump and has completely misread the flight & height of the ball
he must be in more trouble than we think

If you are not talking about the latest incident and claim you were just talking about his general style
then his other major problem is that he has zero awareness of whats going on around him
again he is in big trouble

[sunsaint]

So here we go again....

What’s the bet the club will be ultra cautious with Paddy and he comes back in say round 4. No doubt he will do something silly again.

But what concerns me is how the feck did he get concussion from such innocuous contact??

Read it. It seems to cover a likely explanation for Paddy's experiences.

http://www.gamechangerexpert.com/diabet ... diabetics/

I have never had any doubt his awkwardness on the ground is due to his diabetes
starts well - gets worse - the brain gets a bit foggy - and then the collision happens

[Stephen Theodore]

It is instictive. In this case the objective is not to mark. Mark or bring the ball to ground. In most lower grades and junior football it is drummed into big forwards. Those who do it instinctively are looked at favorably. At AFL level it used to be. Now more emphasis is placed on skill. Paddy's problem here has more to do with poor execution from upfield and the poor judgement in the form of instinct.

Spot on, poor execution upfield finds Paddy out of position more times than not

[Linton Lodger]

So here we go again....

What’s the bet the club will be ultra cautious with Paddy and he comes back in say round 4. No doubt he will do something silly again.

But what concerns me is how the feck did he get concussion from such innocuous contact??

Read it. It seems to cover a likely explanation for Paddy's experiences.

http://www.gamechangerexpert.com/diabet ... diabetics/

Thanks for that, brings a bit of perspective.

"Diabetic athletes must pre-load their brain with lot’s of magnesium and high-octane energy sources while completely eliminating all of the chemicals and additives that will raise excitation in the brain".

Is this occurring with Paddy?

[rodgerfox]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

I agree with this.

We heard ad nauseum from Paddy himself, and the club that he had to 'crash packs'. We kept hearing this from the day he arrived.

And that's what he has tried to do at every contest.

The problem is, that in modern footy there is virtually no legal way to 'crash a pack' other than to go chest or head first into it.

And, that's going to hurt you far more than anyone in that pack.

I firmly believe he has been coached very poorly from the day he arrived.

He was a clunking mark, and we coached that out of him. We taught him to flat hand it to the front of the pack instead.

We taught him to crash packs, with a technique that hurt him more than the pack.

[GilsAuPair]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

I have never understood the 'well liked' thing.

I too will attract the ire of posters on here but anyone who poses for photos with Billy Brownless's daughter - who refers to herself as a 'social influencer' is a complete douche bag.

Sorry to be the one to say it.

[GilsAuPair]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

But he doesn't even 'bash and crash'. His timing is so bad he always comes off second best.

When has he ever crunched somebody else?

He plays 'bashed and crashed' not 'bash and crash'.

[GilsAuPair]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

Everything with regards to technique with Paddy seems off...

When marking, he far too often gets directly under the ball and tries to mark it directly over his head instead of out in front both giving him weaker purchase on the ball and exposing it to the defender

He doesn’t protect his head... seems to want to play bash and crash which he is not suited too. Often leads into packs with his head.

His set shot technique has deteriorated.

And as you’ve pointed out... he seems to be backing into packs more and more which to be honest, I can’t fathom he would even consider given his history.

I agree with this.

We heard ad nauseum from Paddy himself, and the club that he had to 'crash packs'. We kept hearing this from the day he arrived.

And that's what he has tried to do at every contest.

The problem is, that in modern footy there is virtually no legal way to 'crash a pack' other than to go chest or head first into it.

And, that's going to hurt you far more than anyone in that pack.

I firmly believe he has been coached very poorly from the day he arrived.

He was a clunking mark, and we coached that out of him. We taught him to flat hand it to the front of the pack instead.

We taught him to crash packs, with a technique that hurt him more than the pack.

Was always very very dumb from the club to push this.

No kid ever comes in and bashes and crashes. Certainly not these days against hardened professional bodies with years of full time pre-seasons in their bodies.

They should have got him fit and started him on the flank from the get go.

The club will simply never learn.

[Scollop]

Good thread. I agree with skeptic and others

Part of the reason he may have developed bad habits was because they were too soft on him from the get go. For the first 3-4 years we had a player that was cruising and a football club that failed to get him up to AFL standard in fitness. They knew he needed a lot of work and they seemed to think there was no urgency (https://www.saints.com.au/news/2015-09- ... in-extract "His skinfolds are in the 70s and he’ll need to get those down....").

He didn't have the fitness, agility, strength and stamina which could have allowed him to play a different style to the bash and crash, but he was limited due to his fitness and he was mainly unfit we were told due to his diabetes - I understand that, but this is professional sport! The fans demand a return on investment. There should have been goals and targets that he needed to meet in those first two years. Did he meet them? The fact that we failed to develop him may have contributed to his poor technique

The fact that he took too long to get fit put pressure on the individual in his 3rd and fourth year as an AFL footballer as he strived to retain his spot in the seniors. I reckon he showed enough glimpses in 2016 and there were some fantastic highlights which gave us hope that he could become the player that perhaps was worthy of a top ten pick in the National draft...but again his fitness let him down.

The coach made a decision at the start of 2017 to strive for finals - which was a mistake in my opinion - and this led to Paddy playing VFL more times than he would have preferred. The club also erred in playing a broken Nick Riewoldt at Full Forward in 2017 instead of giving opprtunities to Paddy and helping the team to get used to their new Key Position target.

In 2017, I reckon Paddy was to so keen to break back into the seniors that he made some poor decisions and he suffered concussion mostly with Sandringham (https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/you ... wxtj9.html) when perhaps if the coaching staff and the football department had a longer term view than just making finals in Rooy's last year, Paddy may have not been as reckless or as desperate.

I'm not sure whether Paddy could have avoided the concussions if he was fitter, and whether playing seniors more in 2017 would have meant that he'd avoid those extra concussion incidents that year or whether if he avoided concussions back then if the result would have been the same now after similar collisions...but in any case there is usually a reason a player develops bad habits and imo it is usually centred around poor coaching

[CURLY]

At the risk of attracting the ire of the ppl that say I’m perpetually negative about the coaching... whilst he’s very clearly well liked and supported at the club, he doesn’t seem to be well coached or doesn’t respond well to direction.

I have never understood the 'well liked' thing.

I too will attract the ire of posters on here but anyone who poses for photos with Billy Brownless's daughter - who refers to herself as a 'social influencer' is a complete douche bag.

Sorry to be the one to say it.

So he is a douche bag because he gets a photo with his girlfriend is he? Really insightful info.

[saintspremiers]

So before we drafted Paddy we knew his conditioning was poor and he had diabetes.

Now the $64,000 question.....

Did anyone at the club do any homework on the link to poor conditioning and diabetes in teens whom are athletes?

[takeaway]

I don't agree that Paddy has had a lot of his assets, at least in part, coached out of him. That is just an opinion and there is simply no evidence for that occurring. I saw quite a bit of him in his under age days, and don't see much difference in the way he plays now from then, except now he is more mobile and moving further up the ground. He always went back with the flight, led well, etc, showed courage in his desire for the ball, selfless, it was just the way he plays. Instinct. In his younger days he had more of a size advantage, and hence was more successful, particularly in marking, than in the tough AFL world. His AFL experience has been tough, with many interruptions, and development slow. Even Tom Hawkins, with no interruptions, and in a better team with better delivery, took several years to blossom, including "clunking" contested marks. Paddy can still clunk them, or if he can't mark, get it to the ground, the old adage. That hasn't changed.

He has been looking good lately, players were looking more for him, and the club has got him moving around and up the ground where he can use his good field kicking - good tactics. I didn't see him put himself in too much danger in the JLT games or practice matches this year until he backed back vs the Bulldogs. Maybe he was feeling very confident, or instinct kicked in. Not blaming him, because it could well have been a defender anyway, but I don't quite know what Ben Long was doing jumping across the pack when he must have seen Paddy coming back.

It would be a shame if Paddy has to give it away, because imo he was starting to show that he could become our best forward by some margin, and a real target all over the front half. But football is nothing compared to life. Here's hoping.