Who starts as our Ruckman?

[sunsaint]

Longer had the natural talent as a junior. FFS you don't go top 10 in the national draft if you're a shite player

So what happened?

From some of the anecdotal evidence it seems that Billy did not quite have the ambition and drive to be the best he could be and he didn't commit to all the things a professional athlete needs to work on. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps he did have the discipline and the ambition. I'm just guessing, but perhaps the coaches he has had at St Kilda have also done a poor job

I reckon we'll be better off with guys who want to commit to achieving the best that they can be and helping drive the team to achieve success on a regular consistent basis. If Longer wants to grow up and live up to the potential he showed as an 18 year old, perhaps St Kilda can progress up the ladder.

certainly the way I read it - Longer didnt have a contract at the end of 2018 so WC didnt have to trade just offer him an appealing contract and the chance to play in the No. 1 team in the comp
Not many players with drive and ambition would turn that down
I just find it hard to get passed him boasting about how many hours he wastes playing FPS computer games

[stonecold]

The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.

I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).

So the club will go with the poll results, haha!!!!!

[stonecold]

Longer had the natural talent as a junior. FFS you don't go top 10 in the national draft if you're a shite player

So what happened?

From some of the anecdotal evidence it seems that Billy did not quite have the ambition and drive to be the best he could be and he didn't commit to all the things a professional athlete needs to work on. Perhaps I'm wrong and perhaps he did have the discipline and the ambition. I'm just guessing, but perhaps the coaches he has had at St Kilda have also done a poor job

I reckon we'll be better off with guys who want to commit to achieving the best that they can be and helping drive the team to achieve success on a regular consistent basis. If Longer wants to grow up and live up to the potential he showed as an 18 year old, perhaps St Kilda can progress up the ladder.

certainly the way I read it - Longer didnt have a contract at the end of 2018 so WC didnt have to trade just offer him an appealing contract and the chance to play in the No. 1 team in the comp
Not many players with drive and ambition would turn that down
I just find it hard to get passed him boasting about how many hours he wastes playing FPS computer games

Waste's hrs playing computer games, would you rather he does drugs or gambles like many in the AFL?????

Get a grip!!!!!

[samoht]

The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.

I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).

So the club will go with the poll results, haha!!!!!

Ha ha yourself.
How do you conclude that? Do you enjoy ridiculing people and putting fellow sainters down?
I was obviously saying that Pierce should be ahead in our estimation, the fact that it's neck and neck in the poll, as he may have more upside (i.e., I'm referring to those of us participating in the poll and reading this thread who could interpret the close poll result that way). Do I need to spell everything out?
I actually said in another post that Longer will probably be our starting ruckman, if fit, because of his physicality (although I hoped Pierce would get the nod, because of his possible upside).

[stonecold]

The fact that it's neck and neck in the poll (16 vs 17 at this stage) should put the less-experienced Pierce ahead. Longer has probably reached his ceiling and maintained it, whereas Pierce may have some upside to come.

I hope Alabakis comes from left field and pips them both - as he is quick and athletic - apparently he covers 3/4 of a basketball court in 3.08 secs (that's over 22 metres) - which probably translates to a sub 3 sec 20 metre. Which is amazing for his size.
And his endurance is quite good. Go The Big Lab (owski).

So the club will go with the poll results, haha!!!!!

Ha ha yourself.
How do you conclude that? Do you enjoy ridiculing people and putting fellow sainters down?
I was obviously saying that Pierce should be ahead in our estimation, the fact that it's neck and neck in the poll, as he may have more upside (i.e., I'm referring to those of us participating in the poll and reading this thread who could interpret the close poll result that way). Do I need to spell everything out?
I actually said in another post that Longer will probably be our starting ruckman, if fit, because of his physicality (although I hoped Pierce would get the nod, because of his possible upside).

OK, clearer explanation now!!!!!

[skeptic]

I thought Samoht’s inital post was pretty clear

[takeaway]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

[dragit]

In an ideal world, we don't carry any plodders who get picked because they are 'big'.

Carlisle and Marshall changing through the centre and forward line would be a deadly combo, shame we don't have enough quality cover in the backline.

[Crossy66]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

[skeptic]

It’s a very easy to understand concept not worthy of this degree of exposition

Longer is clearly the number one choice to start. If he doesn’t completely cement the spot as his own... and their are doubters, there is a line of thinking that with more experience perhaps Pierce could improve and overtake him.

[skeptic]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

You need two rucks in the team though.

Marshall should start as the key position relief ruck... that leaves one spot for Longer and Pierce. Currently that spot belongs to Billy but Longer needs to get better too. He needs to impact games more... have more presence outside the middle.

If he can’t do that, Pierce should get more of a go at stages too. If he can improve in the middle and develop his tank, he looks to have a bit of potential but is a largely untried player.

My concern is that Billy might not improve and Lewis still won’t get given an opportunity barring injury.

Either way, we go into 2019 with the worst ruck stocks in the league and we need to develop what we have and make decisions about what we persevere with...
And that should be based on form

[stonecold]

In an ideal world, we don't carry any plodders who get picked because they are 'big'.

Carlisle and Marshall changing through the centre and forward line would be a deadly combo, shame we don't have enough quality cover in the backline.

You can have the opinion, not shared by me, but that's ok!!!!!

Neither of those players named are ruckman, Marshall only a handy back up and
Jake would get killed!!!!!

You wouldn't Risk Jake in the ruck, full stop!!!!!

[dragit]

In an ideal world, we don't carry any plodders who get picked because they are 'big'.

Carlisle and Marshall changing through the centre and forward line would be a deadly combo, shame we don't have enough quality cover in the backline.

You can have the opinion, not shared by me, but that's ok!!!!!

Neither of those players named are ruckman, Marshall only a handy back up and
Jake would get killed!!!!!

You wouldn't Risk Jake in the ruck, full stop!!!!!

You are also welcome to an opinion… not sure why you think you need to continue to grant people the right to one.

[Crossy66]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

You need two rucks in the team though.

Marshall should start as the key position relief ruck... that leaves one spot for Longer and Pierce. Currently that spot belongs to Billy but Longer needs to get better too. He needs to impact games more... have more presence outside the middle.

If he can’t do that, Pierce should get more of a go at stages too. If he can improve in the middle and develop his tank, he looks to have a bit of potential but is a largely untried player.

My concern is that Billy might not improve and Lewis still won’t get given an opportunity barring injury.

Either way, we go into 2019 with the worst ruck stocks in the league and we need to develop what we have and make decisions about what we persevere with...
And that should be based on form

So who makes way for Marshall up forward? Or do we play two ruckman?

[skeptic]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

You need two rucks in the team though.

Marshall should start as the key position relief ruck... that leaves one spot for Longer and Pierce. Currently that spot belongs to Billy but Longer needs to get better too. He needs to impact games more... have more presence outside the middle.

If he can’t do that, Pierce should get more of a go at stages too. If he can improve in the middle and develop his tank, he looks to have a bit of potential but is a largely untried player.

My concern is that Billy might not improve and Lewis still won’t get given an opportunity barring injury.

Either way, we go into 2019 with the worst ruck stocks in the league and we need to develop what we have and make decisions about what we persevere with...
And that should be based on form

So who makes way for Marshall up forward? Or do we play two ruckman?

That’s the big challenge. IMO Marshall has to play key forward meaning you have Paddy and Bruce battling it out for the remaining key post with a combination of Gresh, Lonie, Membrey, Battle, Long, Billings, Acres and eventually Stevens (when he starts winding down as a mid) sorting it out based on team balance and opposition IMO.

it leads to a bigger issue of overall list balance which is a problem IMO.

[Crossy66]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

You need two rucks in the team though.

Marshall should start as the key position relief ruck... that leaves one spot for Longer and Pierce. Currently that spot belongs to Billy but Longer needs to get better too. He needs to impact games more... have more presence outside the middle.

If he can’t do that, Pierce should get more of a go at stages too. If he can improve in the middle and develop his tank, he looks to have a bit of potential but is a largely untried player.

My concern is that Billy might not improve and Lewis still won’t get given an opportunity barring injury.

Either way, we go into 2019 with the worst ruck stocks in the league and we need to develop what we have and make decisions about what we persevere with...
And that should be based on form

So who makes way for Marshall up forward? Or do we play two ruckman?

That’s the big challenge. IMO Marshall has to play key forward meaning you have Paddy and Bruce battling it out for the remaining key post with a combination of Gresh, Lonie, Membrey, Battle, Long, Billings, Acres and eventually Stevens (when he starts winding down as a mid) sorting it out based on team balance and opposition IMO.

it leads to a bigger issue of overall list balance which is a problem IMO.

And just to complicate things, throw in max King at some stage. And with Battle at 193, competition for spots will be hot

[takeaway]

Not that any poll on SS matters, but Samoht's initial post certainly was clear, but flawed. Pierce and Longer are neck and neck in the poll, but Pierce, with less experience should be ahead? It is a poll, and I think SS posters are smart enough to take into account possible upsides when putting their vote in. A poll is a poll.

Pierce came into the system only one year after Longer (who is only 25), and is less experienced for a reason - hasn't shown anything except a good season with second class Frankston, and one decent game v Bombers in 2018. Hope he has more upside, but needs to show a fair bit more before you can draw any conclusions. Longer being only 25, and hopefully clear of injury, and being challenged with a one year contract, may well have more potential upside than Pierce.

Well balanced comment.
Saints head into 2019 with one clear ruckman. If he goes down through injury then Marshall will take on ruck duties. I reckon Lewis would be the "in case of emergency break glass" ruck choice at this stage.

You need two rucks in the team though.

Marshall should start as the key position relief ruck... that leaves one spot for Longer and Pierce. Currently that spot belongs to Billy but Longer needs to get better too. He needs to impact games more... have more presence outside the middle.

If he can’t do that, Pierce should get more of a go at stages too. If he can improve in the middle and develop his tank, he looks to have a bit of potential but is a largely untried player.

My concern is that Billy might not improve and Lewis still won’t get given an opportunity barring injury.

Either way, we go into 2019 with the worst ruck stocks in the league and we need to develop what we have and make decisions about what we persevere with...
And that should be based on form

True, but the post was about the race for the starting ruckman, based on the poll. Marshall has not developed enough, if he ever can, to be No. 1 ruck. Forward/ruck yes, depending on the opposition and Marshall's and the other forwards' form. May go into some games with only one ruck.
Although Carlisle should not be any form of designated ruckman, except for the occasional boundary throw in. I reckon if he spent any sort of time in the main ruck, he would be injured within 2 weeks - not a ruckman.

Worst ruck stocks in the league? Maybe, but I'm hopeful that is not the case.

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

[Joffa Burns]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

Would love to see some proof of this highlighted statement. It sounds very much like a stoncold post from 2018 rehashed.

Did you have conversations with oppo rucks?
Where did you come across this information?

[Viscount Jeremiah]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

You mean come good?

How can he re-bound he's always been hopeless. His best year was 2017 but even then the only area he was adequate was hitouts. He still averaged only 5m gained and 1 kick per match. That's bad on an epic level.

[Ghost Like]

The only thing we have beaten Hawthorn in was the race to get Longer. A sliding doors moment where Big Ben and Hawthorn were the winners in the end.

I do think his preoccupation with video games affected him, likely lack of sleep for one, the desire to get back to the console, more likely a poor diet and poor preparation for training and game day. Yes, there are worse things a young man could do with his spare time but there are many better things as well. Hoping this one year contract is a wake up for him.

As stated earlier Pierce has played one decent game but in terms of decent games per opportunity and investment that is probably ahead of Longer.

Whichever way this is sliced our ruck position has been a problem for some time, it needs to be addressed and the only way for that this season will be through some creative thinking. Billy needs to make this season count or move aside for a combination of Pierce and Marshall.

[stonecold]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

Would love to see some proof of this highlighted statement. It sounds very much like a stoncold post from 2018 rehashed.

Did you have conversations with oppo rucks?
Where did you come across this information?

Can not speak for Teddy Boy, however Gawn openly stated it last season!!!!!

Your only hear what suits you Corf!!!!!

[tedtheodorelogan2018]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

You mean come good?

How can he re-bound he's always been hopeless. His best year was 2017 but even then the only area he was adequate was hitouts. He still averaged only 5m gained and 1 kick per match. That's bad on an epic level.

If Billy gets tipped out by Marshall and/or Pearce and later on down the track by Alabaksis then so be it but Billy is our no 1 ruck right now. I personally don't think Billy is as bad as some paint him. Yes, he needs to get around the ground more and pick up more touches and take a few more marks but his primary role as a tap ruck and to be physical is his main purpose.

IMO, we should go all out for a top rival ruck in the next trade period though. They are bloody hard to find though.

[samuraisaint]

In an ideal world, we don't carry any plodders who get picked because they are 'big'.

Carlisle and Marshall changing through the centre and forward line would be a deadly combo, shame we don't have enough quality cover in the backline.

You can have the opinion, not shared by me, but that's ok!!!!!

Neither of those players named are ruckman, Marshall only a handy back up and
Jake would get killed!!!!!

You wouldn't Risk Jake in the ruck, full stop!!!!!

Apparently he has a back injury anyway according to Ted, so playing Jake in the ruck would be just plain crazy. Asking for problems. Longer's problem is that he keeps getting injured, same as a few others on the list at present. If he can get a good run at it, and he gets proper mentoring/ruck coaching (Everitt/Vidovic/King/Gardiner?) then I think we may have our next Geoff Sarau, but it relies on him being able to play consistently. Selection at times has stalled his development too - playing him in the magoos when he just probably should have kept getting regular matches in the seniors hasn't helped him, but he isn't Robinson Crusoe there to be honest.

[samuraisaint]

I'm tipping Billy to rebound this year and prove the doubters wrong. I didn't realise he is still only 25. In a ruckman's sense, that is still quite young. Billy still has plenty of improvement in him and time on his side. Oppo rucks don't enjoy playing against him when it comes to the physical stuff, that is the truth.

You mean come good?

How can he re-bound he's always been hopeless. His best year was 2017 but even then the only area he was adequate was hitouts. He still averaged only 5m gained and 1 kick per match. That's bad on an epic level.

If Billy gets tipped out by Marshall and/or Pearce and later on down the track by Alabaksis then so be it but Billy is our no 1 ruck right now. I personally don't think Billy is as bad as some paint him. Yes, he needs to get around the ground more and pick up more touches and take a few more marks but his primary role as a tap ruck and to be physical is his main purpose.

IMO, we should go all out for a top rival ruck in the next trade period though. They are bloody hard to find though.

The thing is we had one already; McEvoy. This is why I am not happy with some of the club's decisions in recent times.