Who starts as our Ruckman?

[Crossy66]

I would give Sam Alambakis first crack. He just smashed his 3km PB by more than a minute.

Not VFl standard atm. A long way off AFL by all accounts.

[takeaway]

Longer is the obvious first choice. I have doubts whether Pierce will make it, and Marshall is looking promising, but really a 2nd ruck/forward, with a small chance to eventually develop into No. 1 ruck.

[samoht]

I would give Sam Alambakis first crack. He just smashed his 3km PB by more than a minute.

Not VFl standard atm. A long way off AFL by all accounts.

Longer had 1 possession around the ground when North destroyed us - I reckon give Alambakis a go.

[takeaway]

I would give Sam Alambakis first crack. He just smashed his 3km PB by more than a minute.

Not VFl standard atm. A long way off AFL by all accounts.

Longer had 1 possession around the ground when North destroyed us - I reckon give Alambakis a go.

Longer was only half fit vs North. If fully fit would have had at least 2 possessions. Shoe-in for me.

[Crossy66]

I would give Sam Alambakis first crack. He just smashed his 3km PB by more than a minute.

Not VFl standard atm. A long way off AFL by all accounts.

Longer had 1 possession around the ground when North destroyed us - I reckon give Alambakis a go.

Longer was only half fit vs North. If fully fit would have had at least 2 possessions. Shoe-in for me.

Regardless of where you sit on the Longer| Hickey|Peirce | Marshall debate, Alabakas is not part of the conversation. Would be like recruiting Usain Bolt because he is fast. Whether or not Alabakas can make the transition will be up to him, but picking him ahead of all the other 3 because he can run faster than he used to run is lowering the bar a little dont you think?

[saintspremiers]

There is only one player I absolutely detest that is still on our list after our long needed Big Cull of 2018, and that is Billy.

Anyone but Billy (except Acres)

[samuraisaint]

It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.

Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!

Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.

Agreed.

My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has

Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..

Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.

[cwrcyn]

Wow, we are spoilt for choice, aren't we? Longer and Pierce are much the same, with Pierce likely to do a bit more around the ground. Neither are much chop and sit in that slow moving, back up ruck status. Marshall is no better than those two as a ruck, but offers so much more in flexibility (can play forward effectively) agility, leg speed, marking ability, and foot skills. I'd be inclined to play Marshall ahead of he others.

[cwrcyn]

You only have to look at the way Longer moves to see he's unsuited to he modern game. No amount of specialised coaching will change the fact that he is as slow as treacle and seriously lacks agility.

[Freebird]

It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.

Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!

Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.

Agreed.

My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has

Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..

Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.

No, I did not say we had better but he's no good and for the money we were paying, moving him on is the best thing.
Runs (Hickey that is) like he's going to fall over with his head down and can't get to the positions he needs to be.

[Viscount Jeremiah]

You only have to look at the way Longer moves to see he's unsuited to he modern game. No amount of specialised coaching will change the fact that he is as slow as treacle and seriously lacks agility.

And he seriously lacks hand eye coordination

not something thats going to improve much

[samuraisaint]

It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.

Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!

Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.

Agreed.

My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has

Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..

Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.

No, I did not say we had better but he's no good and for the money we were paying, moving him on is the best thing.
Runs (Hickey that is) like he's going to fall over with his head down and can't get to the positions he needs to be.

Fair enough, but IMO that is down to poor coaching and player development. FWIW if he is on big coin, is it not incumbent on the coaching staff - and especially the specialist ruck coach in this case - to coach him on how to run properly and build the player's capacity to run to the right spots? He had been on the list for four or five years. This, in fact, is the gist of what I am so concerned about. Case in point: We hire a forward line coach and pay a specialist goal-kicking coach to come in to improve our goal kicking deficiencies- and our goal kicking accuracy actually devolved to such a state where our percentage was one of the worst on record in the modern game.

To me the approach of modern coaches smacks of bro-science - forwards aren't allowed to have too many practice shots at goal in case they get injured, but because of this players can't hit the side of a barn in perfect conditions because they're not allowed to practice enough in the first place, so in actual fact whether they get injured or not is of little consequence as their benefit to the team is nullified due to poor skills.

[To the top]

I am unaware of the capacities and delivery of our Administrative and Player Support assets, apart from game day results and where I acknowledge that the loss of Fisher then Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna left a gaping hole in regards leadership and class.

However, from afar, I do express concerns that Geary is the Captain of the Club and is lauded as he is confirmed by him being the Captain AND the fact that our best Rucking option has been traded out (to the Premier Club, West Coast, no less) leaving the ruck "assets" we have for the 2019 Season.

These facts color my impression and confidence - also acknowledging that we have players who, by their Draft credentials, are assumed to have the ability and desire to make a significant mark on AFL football as they mature.

The fact they are not being introduced as "cream on the cake" in a successful but are the "engine room" in an under performing side is also significant to me.

That speaks to the dysfunctional demographic profile of our List abetted and added to by the decisions re Geary and Hickey.

So, insult the buggery out of that view!

And enjoy!!

[stonecold]

I am unaware of the capacities and delivery of our Administrative and Player Support assets, apart from game day results and where I acknowledge that the loss of Fisher then Dempster, Riewoldt and Montagna left a gaping hole in regards leadership and class.

However, from afar, I do express concerns that Geary is the Captain of the Club and is lauded as he is confirmed by him being the Captain AND the fact that our best Rucking option has been traded out (to the Premier Club, West Coast, no less) leaving the ruck "assets" we have for the 2019 Season.

These facts color my impression and confidence - also acknowledging that we have players who, by their Draft credentials, are assumed to have the ability and desire to make a significant mark on AFL football as they mature.

The fact they are not being introduced as "cream on the cake" in a successful but are the "engine room" in an under performing side is also significant to me.

That speaks to the dysfunctional demographic profile of our List abetted and added to by the decisions re Geary and Hickey.

So, insult the buggery out of that view!

And enjoy!!

Another last post!!!!!

[WellardSaint]

'To the Top' mentions that Geary as captain reveals a club in serious denial.

I agree, as Geary wouldn't get a game in another club, maybe at VFL level, but certainly not seniors.
We're doomed to keep failing if his standard is the one being lauded as excellence.
If Gears is the face of our brand, then our brand is as rubbish as the North Korean government or the Trump administration.
Other clubs are openly laughing at us.
'Captain Geary? WTF!' they're all saying

[Crossy66]

'To the Top' mentions that Geary as captain reveals a club in serious denial.

I agree, as Geary wouldn't get a game in another club, maybe at VFL level, but certainly not seniors.
We're doomed to keep failing if his standard is the one being lauded as excellence.
If Gears is the face of our brand, then our brand is as rubbish as the North Korean government or the Trump administration.
Other clubs are openly laughing at us.
'Captain Geary? WTF!' they're all saying

Interesting . Isnt it the players that vote on the captain?

[jays]

have to be longer imo

[samoht]

have to be longer imo

We have F grade ruckmen, let's face it. Alabakis doesn't have much to beat - he'd be starting at Longer's and Pierce's level.
Marshall is handy up forward, and a good second ruck.

[skeptic]

have to be longer imo

We have F grade ruckmen, let's face it. Alabakis doesn't have much to beat - he'd be starting at Longer's and Pierces's level.
Marshall is handy up forward, and a good second ruck.

It was a disappointing trade/recruitment period where our ruck stocks ended up weaker then when we started

[Ghost Like]

'To the Top' mentions that Geary as captain reveals a club in serious denial.

I agree, as Geary wouldn't get a game in another club, maybe at VFL level, but certainly not seniors.
We're doomed to keep failing if his standard is the one being lauded as excellence.
If Gears is the face of our brand, then our brand is as rubbish as the North Korean government or the Trump administration.
Other clubs are openly laughing at us.
'Captain Geary? WTF!' they're all saying

Interesting . Isnt it the players that vote on the captain?

I believe they do. I also am a little underwhelmed with Geary as Captain but will take solace the players know infinitely more than me when judging his character and value. I also imagine Collingwood fans felt similarly when Maxwell was appointed skipper. It would not surprise to see a new Captain in 2020, whether that is Hannerbury, Ross, Carlisle, Acres or ???, whoever it is should not detract from having our best 22 selected.

As for our ruck situation, I don't believe we have lost anything trading Hickey, 2019 is a year of opportunity for our remaining 3 and our project player. The trade period at the end of the season should see an A grade mid & an A grade ruck as our priorities...filling our two largest list holes.

[SydneySainter]

It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.

Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!

Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.

Agreed.

My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has

Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..

Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.

I think the fact that both Longer and Pierce were only offered one-year extensions is pretty telling of where our ruck depth is at. It's kind of funny when only three seasons ago that was supposed to be our strength.

I'm in two minds about the Hickey trade. Hickey was 27, struggling to recapture his 2016 form and starting to show signs that maybe we'd already seen his best. Plus, we clearly had to clear out at least one ruck and finally move on from this farcical Hickey v Longer debate. But, at least Hickey was a footballer and it just so happens that Hickey was our only ruck with any currency and was courted by the Premiers no-less, so clearly some in the industry still see something in him.

Now we're left with Longer as our likely starting ruck, who lets be honest - is slow, doesn't kick goals and doesn't find much of the footy. I know his strength is supposed to be in his tap-work, but he was consistently beaten by most of his opponents last year, so I think his strength in the centre has always been very overstated.

Hope to be proven wrong and see Pierce or Longer take their game to another level, but I think even the club is pretty skeptical.

[Freebird]

Hickey's best year 2016 averaged 3 marks and kicked 3 goals for the year. Longer is slow but Hickey does not exactly tear the track up with his speed

[skeptic]

Hickey's best year 2016 averaged 3 marks and kicked 3 goals for the year. Longer is slow but Hickey does not exactly tear the track up with his speed

I don’t think the argument was ever some variation of how good is Hickey. A particular poster turned it into Hickey vs Longer but as many objective posters pointed out... to this point both have been largely mediocre.

The issue now however is that by not replacing Hickey, we now have one mediocre seasoned ruck instead of two and the reality is that Longer has been injured for a large portion of the last 3 seasons.

The reality is we’re one injury away from having no back up period...

That’s not a good spot to be

[Crossy66]

It has to be Longer, the best tap ruckman of an ordinary trio.

Marshall is the best around the ground option to chop out each quarter, but spend more time drifting forward and back, which Longer doesn't have the tank to do and even if he did he can't take a mark!

Pierce is second choice, but has similar issues to Longer re tank and marking.

Agreed.


My hope would be that if Longer doesn’t improve markedly that Pierce will get the opportunity for an extended run for development like Billy has

Hickey was a dud..played 3 good games GWS and Melb only averaged 1-2 marks per game normally on his own and surprised if he was in a position to take a pack mark.
The problem on this site, everyone remembers his good games and because he's been out injured so often he's not around to change people's thoughts.
He will play early for westcoast until he exposes his inefficiencies. Won't last long..

Honest question; do you think any of the three, now four, ruckmen we currently have on the list are better? Because I don't think any of them are TBH. Longer rucks differently, not necessarily better. My concern is why we re-contracted two players who are not going to take us forward and traded our ruckman who was currently already contracted for a draft pick which is speculative at best. What sort of move is that?
Remember McEvoy - he took his game to a new level after receiving decent coaching and player development at the Hawks. If Hickey improves this year and takes his game to the next level a lot of decision-makers at St. Kilda are going to have eggs on their faces. And I think, if this happens, that Longer will seek a move elsewhere chasing the same opportunities.
Our player development is extremely suspect and has been since the Lyon-era, and I think we scapegoat young, inexperienced players instead of laying the blame where it actually lies.

I think the fact that both Longer and Pierce were only offered one-year extensions is pretty telling of where our ruck depth is at. It's kind of funny when only three seasons ago that was supposed to be our strength.

I'm in two minds about the Hickey trade. Hickey was 27, struggling to recapture his 2016 form and starting to show signs that maybe we'd already seen his best. Plus, we clearly had to clear out at least one ruck and finally move on from this farcical Hickey v Longer debate. But, at least Hickey was a footballer and it just so happens that Hickey was our only ruck with any currency and was courted by the Premiers no-less, so clearly some in the industry still see something in him.

Now we're left with Longer as our likely starting ruck, who lets be honest - is slow, doesn't kick goals and doesn't find much of the footy. I know his strength is supposed to be in his tap-work, but he was consistently beaten by most of his opponents last year, so I think his strength in the centre has always been very overstated.

Hope to be proven wrong and see Pierce or Longer take their game to another level, but I think even the club is pretty skeptical.

This has been done to death, but as a number have noted over the years, Billy was quite agile and quick for his size at Brissy and also had a great leap. I dont know whether its injuries, attitude or our fabled development at fault, but i think physically, he has the tools to be a great ruckman. I think the coaches know it, so just have to get the best out of him. I think that its all up to Billy - If he wants it enough to do the hard yards or not. definitely a make or break year for him and i reckon he will get every chance to make it this year. Pierce is a fair way off and as much as i like Marshall, He is not a great ruck or a great forward - he's a hybrid really, so hard to see him taking the number one ruck spot and hard to see him get picked ahead of Paddy, Bruce, King, battle, Membrey etc etc. as a key forward. Hope the new ruck changes see more 2 ruck set ups as i would love to see him make it.

[dragit]

I'm tipping most of us are spewing in 6 months time when hickey is tearing it up, finals bound and we are desperate for a decent 1st choice ruckmen.

It would take a remarkable change of fortune and direction for billy to get another contract, let alone lead us towards being a finals bound outfit.

The 80's are over unfortunately, ruckmen need to be able to catch the ball and also regularly get it to teammeates... something longer still doesn't look capable of after 7 years.

If history repeats, we'll pay overs for another ruckmen and thrn trade them on 4 years later for peanuts.